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Then 3 actual Paladins showed up. There was no mercy, there was no restraint, the foe was killed in full public view. When someone does something like that they weaken all Paladins, and they make protecting people even harder. So Paladins would deal with it lethally and efficiently.
And then the three paladins fell. HARD. At least in every world I've seen or played.
As the meme has it, "Cool motive. Still murder."
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For the folk saying that Paladin powers aren't fakable, remember that Pathfinder has an entire country of sorcerers/wizards casually pretending to be clerics and the various rubes buy the deception no problem.
And that's without getting into the bag of cats that other people have mentioned with archtypes and such,
Just to point out the "various rubes" don't universally buy the deception no problem, it's enforced with "he is our god and we are his clerics and if you suggest otherwise we'll kill you and your family as an example."
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I find that horrifyingly unrealistic for a fantasy setting. I mean Paladins are known to be great heroes that are told of in tales and stories. It says so in the core rule book.
Think the rulebook has all the answers? Then let's see that rulebook run a campaign! - Mike Mearls
While I've seen what you said about your appreciation of the official fluff before, and I partly agree with that, the thing still is, that the core rule book doesn't run my campaign. I do. And as far as the rules and the fluff is concerned, they only apply to my games as far as I allow them to do.
Apart from that, I can't somehow find anything in the paladin description in the core rule book that says what you claim it would say.
I find that horrifyingly unrealistic for a fantasy setting. I mean Paladins are known to be great heroes that are told of in tales and stories. It says so in the core rule book.
Would it be horrifyingly unrealistic for villagers in a fantasy setting to distrust a stranger from a foreign land, armed to the teeth and bearing the symbol of an obscure/unpopular deity, who rode into town and killed the town's trusted and respected [insert noble title] claiming that the victim was killed for demon summoning? Is saying "its cool, I'm a Paladin (of a country and deity you don't know/like)" always going to be accepted?
I don't mind using trustworthiness and status as evidence, but I do mind using not falling from grace as a universal get out of suspicion free card. If a Paladin is a trusted member of a community, there are a dozen examples of character beyond "my horse didn't run away.". If they aren't, they might not be trusted.
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The problem with this idea is how do people know who is a paladin and who is not? Take any well-known fictional character and tell me his class. What class is Batman? How about Wolverine or Spiderman? Is Roland a paladin, a cavalier or a fighter? How would you build Belgarion from the David Edding series?
I can think of at least three ways to build a character that would be able to simulate most of what a paladin can do. What cannot be simulated can be faked.
Many paladin archetypes trade away paladin abilities for other things. Would the ordinary person consider a paladin who cannot smite evil to be a paladin? Or would a paladin that does not have smite evil be taken as a fallen paladin. What if the only paladin the locals have encountered had an archetype that traded away a core paladin ability for something else? Would the fact that the player’s paladin does not have this ability be taken as a sign the player is a fallen paladin?
Common knowledge about the base Paladin class abilities is widely known.
Archetypes require religion DC 15.
A commoner (using the townsperson NPC as the example, though a town guard gets much the same results) would have a (slightly over) 50% of being able to recognize a Paladin of a common god, a (slightly over) 25% of recognizing a Paladin archetype, and a 1% chance of recognizing a Paladin of an obscure god. Granted a mayor or a noble or something would likely have a better chance, but it's by no means a given. Sure, everyone's probably heard of a Paladin in Golarion, but how many could actually identify one?
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A commoner (using the townsperson NPC as the example, though a town guard gets much the same results) would have a (slightly over) 50% of being able to recognize a Paladin of a common god, a (slightly over) 25% of recognizing a Paladin archetype, and a 1% chance of recognizing a Paladin of an obscure god. Granted a mayor or a noble or something would likely have a better chance, but it's by no means a given. Sure, everyone's probably heard of a Paladin in Golarion, but how many could actually identify one?The problem with this idea is how do people know who is a paladin and who is not? Take any well-known fictional character and tell me his class. What class is Batman? How about Wolverine or Spiderman? Is Roland a paladin, a cavalier or a fighter? How would you build Belgarion from the David Edding series?
I can think of at least three ways to build a character that would be able to simulate most of what a paladin can do. What cannot be simulated can be faked.
Many paladin archetypes trade away paladin abilities for other things. Would the ordinary person consider a paladin who cannot smite evil to be a paladin? Or would a paladin that does not have smite evil be taken as a fallen paladin. What if the only paladin the locals have encountered had an archetype that traded away a core paladin ability for something else? Would the fact that the player’s paladin does not have this ability be taken as a sign the player is a fallen paladin?
Common knowledge about the base Paladin class abilities is widely known.
Archetypes require religion DC 15.
Is that RAW? Are classes recognizable through Knowledge rolls?
They might recognize the symbols of the god the paladin serves (with different chances depending on whether the deity is common or obscure), but there's no RAW for "That's a paladin", AFAIK.
As far as I'm concerned it is, recognizing the clergy of a common deity is DC 10. I would group Paladins under clergy unless there's a compelling reason not to. I would probably rule that a paladin of a concept (rather than a God) would be the equivalent of an obscure clergy.
EDUT: actually, correction: by RAW a commoner wouldn't be able to identify an obscure god Paladin at all, as the DC is over 10 and they're untrained.
And I don't know about the archetype DC, I was just taking HWalsh at their word.
No, agreed, if the paladin question is just dressed in standard adventuring clothes you wouldn't be able to tell them from Adam. But if they are dressed as a member of Iomedae's Paladin order they're probably going to be recognizable.
So you're recognizing the clothing, not the person.
That's actually part of the problem here. The person wearing the clothing could be a mass murdering rogue. You don't have any way of telling because you only know the uniform.
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No, agreed, if the paladin question is just dressed in standard adventuring clothes you wouldn't be able to tell them from Adam. But if they are dressed as a member of Iomedae's Paladin order they're probably going to be recognizable.So you're recognizing the clothing, not the person.
That's actually part of the problem here. The person wearing the clothing could be a mass murdering rogue. You don't have any way of telling because you only know the uniform.
Which is one (of several) reasons why being a Paladin shouldn't be taken as an absolute indicator of rightness. The whole point of the DC to identify tangent was to point out that folks of average intelligence and no religious training would only even be able to recognize a Paladin roughly half the time, so why would they be swayed by claims of Paladinship?
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I'm pretty sure that the taking 10 rules mean that folks of average intelligence would always recognize the vestments of a follower of Iomedae as long as they weren't under strong (eg life-threatening) pressure at the time.
Whether they can recognize with any accuracy the powers of a paladin of Iomedae is another question entirely.
No, agreed, if the paladin question is just dressed in standard adventuring clothes you wouldn't be able to tell them from Adam. But if they are dressed as a member of Iomedae's Paladin order they're probably going to be recognizable.So you're recognizing the clothing, not the person.
That's actually part of the problem here. The person wearing the clothing could be a mass murdering rogue. You don't have any way of telling because you only know the uniform.
So could the cop that pulled you over. You don't know. You just know the uniform and the trappings.
And yet people obey.
Not always. And there are a lot of recorded cases of people impersonating police officers.
If you're in doubt about whether or not the person who's stopped you is a police officer,there's actually a procedure to follow, one that does not include stopping.
Which is to say, you're not expected to take someone's unsupported word that they're a police officer, and you shouldn't be expected to take someone's unsupported word that they're a paladin either.
Recognizing a common deity’s symbol or clergy is a DC 10. Knowing common mythology or tenets is a DC 15. Recognizing an obscure deity’s symbol or clergy is a DC 20.
I would say that most commoners will be able to figure out that the paladin of Iomedae is wearing her holy symbol, and may be a member of her clergy. This does not mean they know who Iomedae is other than in a very vague way, or what her teachings are. They may know her as the warrior goddess or something similar. To know what she stands for would require a DC 15 which means it cannot be made untrained. I would put the DC to recognize a person is a member of a particular order of common deity at the same DC as recognizing an obscure deity, so that would mean recognizing a character is a member of a particular order would be a DC 20.
Another thing to consider is the fact that different people will have different ideas of who is a legitimate authority. Just because one god considers someone to be, or not be a legitimate authority does not mean another god will agree with the first god. Asmodeus would see Queen Abrogail II as a legitimate authority, but Ragathiel may not view her the same way. Milani would certainly not recognize Queen Aborgail II as a legitimate authority.
** spoiler omitted **
So a paladin that still has their mount and the ability to cast divine spells when attempting to overthrow a non-legitimate authority should be able to use this as proof that they are in the right and get any good people and possibly lawful people who believe the ruling authorities haven't done anything wrong, who are trying to stop the paladin to instead join them.
But that's assuming everyone knows this information about paladins.
Would you allow this in your games? It'd be very circumstantial if it were to work. What do y'all think?
I think there is a difference between not doing anything 'WRONG'... and being inherently 'RIGHT'...
That said, the only situation I had like this, was my kingmaker Paladin. I was definitely in the camp of "I am a Paladin... we all know I am a Paladin... Look at my Paladin powers! OBVIOUSLY I am still a Paladin!"
I feel Paladins have a reputation. They're rock stars. They wear their codes on their sleeves and recite them to anyone who'll listen. I'm a firm believer that when a peasant hears that a PALADIN has come to save them, they breathe a sigh of relief.
Nobody should just assume that Captain America or Superman are flat out lying to them. They just have that reputation going for them. And that was one of king Thad's trademark moves. We're sitting down for negotions now... You may not like me. You may not like my god. You may not trust politicians in general. ... but you KNOW I will not lie to you and if I make a promise I intend to keep it.
There are a few way that NON-Paladin's can try to fake the powers and sow some distrust... but if you have the reputation of an honest to goodness Paladin... and still have the powers to show for it, then that should carry some weight.
I always play my paladins with the assertion people will believe me because I am a paladin. What they do from there is on them. I will react accordingly. Also its my instinct if i'm LG I will take a paladins side assuming he knows what he is talking about.
Nobody should just assume that Captain America or Superman are flat out lying to them.Yeah, well Superman meets a lot of mistrust in the DC Universe Version of the earth by normal people.
Which version? Current movie version isn't really Superman. Most Comic versions is pretty well adored by the people he saves. As is most versions that haven't been hit with the grimdark virus. He has that 'hero' reputation that he'd do everything in his power to fight and die for them. The people of earth realize that
And Cap. America just proved that the trust in him was severely misplaced.
Yeah... but at the same time while these are common examples of paladins... they really AREN'T... Otherwise Cap would have lost his powers and reputation years ago with the current storyline.
** spoiler omitted **
So a paladin that still has their mount and the ability to cast divine spells when attempting to overthrow a non-legitimate authority should be able to use this as proof that they are in the right and get any good people and possibly lawful people who believe the ruling authorities haven't done anything wrong, who are trying to stop the paladin to instead join them.
But that's assuming everyone knows this information about paladins.
Would you allow this in your games? It'd be very circumstantial if it were to work. What do y'all think?
This would be like a random guy saying he's always right therefore he is right this time. I'd say if anything that kind of behavior would make it more difficult to gain support.
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In a setting with active deities claiming dominion over their portfolio(s), the notion of an unified legal system as we know it is a bit odd.
Not every fantasy setting has active deities though. And if they claim dominion over their portfolios might also be a matter of interpretation considering how many domains are shared by different gods.
Recognizing a common deity’s symbol or clergy is a DC 10. Knowing common mythology or tenets is a DC 15. Recognizing an obscure deity’s symbol or clergy is a DC 20.
I would say that most commoners will be able to figure out that the paladin of Iomedae is wearing her holy symbol, and may be a member of her clergy. This does not mean they know who Iomedae is other than in a very vague way, or what her teachings are. They may know her as the warrior goddess or something similar. To know what she stands for would require a DC 15 which means it cannot be made untrained. I would put the DC to recognize a person is a member of a particular order of common deity at the same DC as recognizing an obscure deity, so that would mean recognizing a character is a member of a particular order would be a DC 20.
Another thing to consider is the fact that different people will have different ideas of who is a legitimate authority. Just because one god considers someone to be, or not be a legitimate authority does not mean another god will agree with the first god. Asmodeus would see Queen Abrogail II as a legitimate authority, but Ragathiel may not view her the same way. Milani would certainly not recognize Queen Aborgail II as a legitimate authority.
Also depends on the setting. In Mendev I assume that everyone will recognise a paladin of Iomedae. Orders are probably also based in some area etc.
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They will recognize that the paladin is a follower of Iomedae not necessarily that he is a paladin. Using Iomedae as an example is probably a bad idea because Most of her followers tend to act like paladins anyways. I believe the saying goes something like Iomedae was a paladin, her paladins act like paladins, her clerics act like paladins, her inquisitors act like paladins, even her fighters who worship her act like paladins.
When your entire religion acts like paladins telling the actual paladins from other divine casters is a little bit difficult.
As I also pointed out just because your deity supports your goal of overthrowing a ruler does not mean other will. Even other good deities may differ on who is a legitimate authority. The fact that a paladin has not fallen for opposing a ruler only means that his deity agrees that the ruler should be overthrown. In pathfinder deities are not infallible. Just because Ragathiel wants to replace a devil worshiping ruler does not mean that sarenrae agrees with him.