I'm a little confused about Paizo's lich entry.
From my (admittedly limited) understanding, one has to be a very powerful spell caster to even attempt to become a Lich. And in most fiction and other RPGs like D&D, Lichs are incredibly tough foes to face.
However, according to Paizo, liches are only a CR 12 monster, and a demilich is CR 14, far less powerful than a high level spellcaster, or even a well put together medium level party.
In Kingmaker, Vordakai who is an extremely old and atrophied lich is a CR 12.
Does this mean that all liches a party would face are atrophied and weak?
Where are the strong, powerful liches? I've heard other GMs talk about them using liches as foes for high leveled parties, but I've never found a stat block for them.
Am I missing something somewhere?
Thanks in advance!
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The Bestiary lich is the basic lich monster. Monsters can be advanced by various means, sometimes by adding hit dice, sometimes by adding class levels. Liches are classically a monster made to be the BBEG of a campaign, not just a random encounter. One does not simply flip open a random page in a Bestiary (after rolling a d6 for which one) and declare, 'This is the BBEG' (most of the time). Instead, most GMs will use that information to make a lich with twenty levels in a casting class, numerous magical traps and magical items, and go from there. I have seldom heard of anyone just using the 'basic' Bestiary One lich as a result. If you're missing anything, it is merely the fact that any monster with a template is truly meant to be built by hand using the template, and the creature in the book is just an example my good man.
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there's a template for liches that could be used here - doesn't really require anything but evil, so technically you could give it to any power creature, sounds like from the example at least CR10 to start with might be a good idea. You could quite easily make a lvl 20 wizard a lich with the template if it's an NPC if you wanted a really powerful one
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Thank you very much. I was unaware that there was a template for making a lich. That makes more sense now.
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The lich listed in the bestiary is an example. Like any templated creature how strong it is, is based on how strong the base creature is. The one listed in the bestiary is based on an 11th level wizard which makes its CR 12. If you used a 20th level wizard or other spell caster it would be a CR 22.
The bestiary also states that each lich must create its own phylactery which requires the feat craft wondrous items, and be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th level or higher. The template also has a requirement of any evil so you do have to be evil. So the good commoner cannot become a lich only an evil spell caster of 11th level or higher.
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Master craftsman would allow a non-spellcaster to create the phylactery, andcommoners can be evil. I actually have an idea for a unchained scaled fist monk that becomes a lich as a martial undead npc. An undying master is a common martial arts trope, an undead one twists it a bit.
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However, according to Paizo, liches are only a CR 12 monster, and a demilich is CR 14, far less powerful than a high level spellcaster, or even a well put together medium level party.
Incidentally, 11th level is pretty high (relatively speaking). I mean, at 16th level you're powerful enough to tell Golarian to get bent and go live in the sun. Lore wise, high level spellcasters are doing things like running countries, fighting gods, and wandering around the astral plane.
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One route to become a lich is through the Eternal Apotheosis occult ritual, scroll down this page.
Also anyone can cast occult rituals, regardless of class. So combined with the Master Craftsman feat mentioned above. A sufficently lucky/powerful/wealthy commoner could become a lich.
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Golarion lore has the most powerful individuals mostly at CR 12.
Hey, doesn't PFS retire you at level 12? What an amazing coincidence.
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Golarion lore has the most powerful individuals mostly at CR 12.Hey, doesn't PFS retire you at level 12? What an amazing coincidence.
kind of - there are some modules/APs that it's possible to go beyond lvl 12 with, but you're kinda limited and not sure it's possible to go past lvl 12 more than once
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Most of the liches in Golarion lore are either just powerful enough for entry (Meyi Panaho is a 12th level diviner, and Phaegia is an 11th level cleric), or super powerful (Such as Tar-Baphon, who is a 20th level necromancer advanced variant lich with 10 mythic ranks.)
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Master craftsman would allow a non-spellcaster to create the phylactery, andcommoners can be evil. I actually have an idea for a unchained scaled fist monk that becomes a lich as a martial undead npc. An undying master is a common martial arts trope, an undead one twists it a bit.
The Lich's Phylactery
An integral part of becoming a lich is the creation of the phylactery in which the character stores his soul. The only way to get rid of a lich for sure is to destroy its phylactery. Unless its phylactery is located and destroyed, a lich can rejuvenate after it is killed (seeCreating a Lich, below).
Each lich must create its own phylactery by using the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.
The most common form of phylactery is a sealed metal box containing strips of parchment on which magical phrases have been transcribed. The box is Tiny and has 40 hit points, hardness 20, and a break DC of 40.
Other forms of phylacteries can exist, such as rings, amulets, or similar items.
Creating a Lich
"Lich" is an acquired template that can be added to any living creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature), provided it can create the required phylactery. A lich retains all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here.
CR: Same as the base creature + 2.
Alignment: Any evil.
Being able to create the phylactery is only one of the requirements to becoming a lich. You still need to meet the other requirements which as the bolded sections above point out include being able to cast spells and having a caster level of 11th level, and an evil alignment. According to the rules to become a lich you have to be an evil caster with a caster level of 11 or higher. The last time I looked commoners are not able to cast spells and do not have a caster level. So unless GM is using house rules a commoner cannot become a lich no matter what feats he has.
There are a huge amount of other undead templates that can be used for non spell casters. So instead of trying to figure out a way to make a non spell caster into something that does not really suit it why not simply use something else better suited for a non spell caster?
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Rituals, both linked above and the homebrew topic I have been contributing to, state that being a spellcaster are not required.
You have 2 conflicting rules so yes, the GM must make the choice. In 3.5 I had an NPC attach the hand of vecna. He used the power that kills, and Vecna rewarded him by making the 10th level ninja a litch.
Not only are GMs free to allow it in home games, PFS developers are free to create non caster liches and the altered ritual that creates them.
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kind of - there are some modules/APs that it's possible to go beyond lvl 12 with, but you're kinda limited and not sure it's possible to go past lvl 12 more than onceGolarion lore has the most powerful individuals mostly at CR 12.Hey, doesn't PFS retire you at level 12? What an amazing coincidence.
There are a lot of ways to go past level 12 at this point. You can even make it to 20 if you plan right.
Currently above level 12 in PFS I have:
19 sorcerer
14 cleric
15 oracle
16 shaman
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kind of - there are some modules/APs that it's possible to go beyond lvl 12 with, but you're kinda limited and not sure it's possible to go past lvl 12 more than onceGolarion lore has the most powerful individuals mostly at CR 12.Hey, doesn't PFS retire you at level 12? What an amazing coincidence.There are a lot of ways to go past level 12 at this point. You can even make it to 20 if you plan right.
Still, I wouldn't think the PFS normal retirement level and Golarion lore's "most of the most powerful individuals" level are unrelated---even if both have their exceptions.
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I'm learning a lot about lichs and PFS today. ;-)