Monk IUS counts as a natural weapon.
That statement is simply not true.
General rules aren't effects, thus the classification in primary or secondary is never made.Power Attack is not a general rule, it is an effect whose affect is dependent on weapon classification and applied strength modifier.
Are you literally unable to read the word's I'm writing? Because the Words "Power Attack" don't appear in my post that you're responding to, yet your entire response is only talking about Power Attack.
So no, you don't "quot[e] RAW relevant to each objection raised (...)". You didnt adress my argument at all. Power Attack is irrelevant to my argument. A Monk's US counts as a natural weapon only for "spells and effects that enhance or improve (...) natural weapons." - that's what the rules say. In order to disprove my argument, you need to quote us a the effect that classifies the US as a primary attack. Remember that you yourself have admitted that general rules aren't effects. I take you saying that Power Attack was "dependent on weapon classification" as admittance that PA itself doesn't do the classification. So what effect (not general rule) does the classification?
It is well within context. Monks only have one type of attack that is treated as a natural weapons, IUS. The quoted RAW provides a default classification of primary when a combatant has only a single type of natural weapon.No.
A Monk's Unarmed Strike is only treated as a natural attack for "spells and effects that enhance or improve".
The section your quoting from is neither a spell or effect that enhances or improves.
** spoiler omitted **1. Power Attack is an effect that changes weapon damage.
2. The effect is positive in nature for the user; it modifies the damage quality of the weapon in a desired manner.
That's all kinds of incorrect.
For starters, modifiers on a given roll doesn't mean you're changing the actual roll that the dice gave you. If that was the case, then if I rolled a 10, then having a +10 to hit means I rolled a Natural 20, and could potentially critically hit an enemy. You know how silly that sounds? Because that's exactly what you're perpetuating here with that claim, since mathematically speaking, that's what your claim is permitting me to do. Which is obviously unintended.
Furthermore, Power Attack does not increase the damage dice of the weapon like Lead Blades or Enlarge Person does, it simply adds a flat modifier to the total damage dealt by the melee attack at the expense of reducing the attack roll modifier. That's all it does. Nothing more, nothing less. Saying Power Attack affects your damage rolls the same way Lead Blades or Enlarge Person does is a disingenuous argument that is absolutely not reflected in most every statblock that Paizo has published, which means you're still clearly in the wrong.
And while we're on the topic of Monk Unarmed Strikes, it's time to play a game of "spot the difference" between what the rules say, and what you keep saying:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
A monk's unarmed strike istreated as both a manufactured weapon anda natural weaponfor the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
The former is what the rules actually state. The latter is what you're trying to interpret the former to mean. The fact that I have to cut out all of that text to reach your conclusion should be a telling factor that your interpretation is way off-base.
1. Power Attack is an effect that changes weapon damage.Quote please.
Please refer to the definition of effect, as quoted above.
1. Power Attack is an effect that changes weapon damage.
2. The effect is positive in nature for the user; it modifies the damage quality of the weapon in a desired manner.This is flat out wrong.
Not only does Power Attack not say that...
You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.But "Weapon Damage" is literally just the damage dice used by a weapon. Since your pulling that quote from the Weapon Chart in the equipment section. Which Power Attack doesn't effect.
If the argument is that Power Attack is anything other than a modifier to normal weapon damage, the consequence of the argument is that Power Attack is not multiplied on a critical hit.
Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Also Snowlilly i suppose your logic would apply to the Beaststrike Club?
I see nothing in the RAW for the provided link that alters the general rules.
Dragon Ferocity is not even a requirement to get the x1.5 modifier to Power Attack. (Nor is it an option without Feral Combat Training.) Creatures with only a single natural attack always count it as primary and deal x1.5 the STR mod.
If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls.
You won't be getting more than 1 attack per round unless you are a monk using Feral Combat Training to flurry, have other natural weapons, or are combining with manufactured weapons.
Monk IUS counts as a natural weapon.That statement is simply not true.
And yet, the RAW has been provided demonstrating that it is true.
Are you literally unable to read the word's I'm writing? Because the Words "Power Attack" don't appear in my post that you're responding to, yet your entire response is only talking about Power Attack.General rules aren't effects, thus the classification in primary or secondary is never made.Power Attack is not a general rule, it is an effect whose affect is dependent on weapon classification and applied strength modifier.
The only effect I've been discussing the entire thread is Power Attack.
So no, you don't "quot[e] RAW relevant to each objection raised (...)". You didnt adress my argument at all. Power Attack is irrelevant to my argument. A Monk's US counts as a natural weapon only for "spells and effects that enhance or improve (...) natural weapons." - that's what the rules say. In order to disprove my argument, you need to quote us a the effect that classifies the US as a primary attack. Remember that you yourself have admitted that general rules aren't effects. I take you saying that Power Attack was "dependent on weapon classification" as admittance that PA itself doesn't do the classification. So what effect (not general rule) does the classification?
The RAW for classification of natural weapons has been posted. That RAW is under the Natural Weapons universal monster rules, not Power Attack.
The RAW stating all natural weapon are either primary or secondary, the RAW describing the difference between the two, and the RAW stating that a creature possessing only a single type of natural attack always treats that attack type as primary regardless of classification. It has all been posted.
You still realize that a monk US is not a Natural Attack yes ? It's an US that count like an NA for certain effect... And you still realize that it does not do 1-1/2 STR damage...
Even with Dragon Ferocity, it's a temporary bonus damage, it does not give you 1-1/2 Str damage on your fist permanently...
SO 2 things : Your Unarmed Strike is still considered as an Unarmed Strike Type when you hit so Power Attack consider your attack Unarmed Strike, not Natural Attack... And your bonus damage is still considered 1x STR, the bonus is added at the same time the power attack bonus kick in... Since there's no rule order to indicate which feat is resolved first the only thing to do is to resolve them at the same time and if they are resolved at the same time the moment you check if you have 1-1/2 Str for power attack you don't have it yet... :p
Oh and you're saying with Dragon Ferocity you can add more damage with power attack but only on the second attack since Dragon Ferocity give you 2x Str on the first attack ? :p
Please refer to the definition of effect, as quoted above.1. Power Attack is an effect that changes weapon damage.Quote please.
I prefer to derive the exact mechanics of the Power Attack feat from the actual text of the Power Attack feat.
This text explicitly and unambiguously tells me that Power Attack gives a bonus to all melee damage rolls.
I fail to see how anything written in this entire thread overrides that and leads to your conclusion that "Power Attack is an effect that changes weapon damage." I'm also unsure where to find this definition of effect.
That's all kinds of incorrect.
For starters, modifiers on a given roll doesn't mean you're changing the actual roll that the dice gave you. If that was the case, then if I rolled a 10, then having a +10 to hit means I rolled a Natural 20, and could potentially critically hit an enemy. You know how silly that sounds? Because that's exactly what you're perpetuating here with that claim, since mathematically speaking, that's what your claim is permitting me to do. Which is obviously unintended.
Furthermore, Power Attack does not increase the damage dice of the weapon like Lead Blades or Enlarge Person does, it simply adds a flat modifier to the total damage dealt by the melee attack at the expense of reducing the attack roll modifier. That's all it does. Nothing more, nothing less. Saying Power Attack affects your damage rolls the same way Lead Blades or Enlarge Person does is a disingenuous argument that is absolutely not reflected in most every statblock that Paizo has published, which means you're still clearly in the wrong.
I don't disagree with the way things have been run to date. I simply point out what your reinterpretation of Power Attack leads too.
The RAw states:
Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
If we assume Power Attack is an effect that modifies normal weapon damage, Power Attack is multiplied on a critical hit and it falls under monk IUS rules for enhancing natural weapons.
If we assume Power Attack does not modify normal weapon damage, modifying only the result of the dice roll, the damage bonus is not multiplied on a critical hit.
And while we're on the topic of Monk Unarmed Strikes, it's time to play a game of "spot the difference" between what the rules say, and what you keep saying:
A copy of what I actually posted earlier
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Reference the previously provided definition for "treated as" if the reasoning is unclear.
Oh and you're saying with Dragon Ferocity you can add more damage with power attack but only on the second attack since Dragon Ferocity give you 2x Str on the first attack ? :p
In every single instance where a ruling has been made to date, bonuses and rules have all been ruled as inclusive. E.g. a character with a 16 STR still qualifies for Power Attack.
I wonder if "that would Almost certianly not be what was intended, and therefore, Probobly no." Is an acceptable answer, instead of delving into the depths of raw and semantics.
Probobly not.
I wonder if "that would Almost certianly not be what was intended, and therefore, Probobly no." Is an acceptable answer, instead of delving into the depths of raw and semantics.
Probobly not.
RAI, there is no more debate over how Power Attack works than there was over how bow enhancement bonuses applied to arrows.
To the best of my knowledge, nobody knows the RAI for the interaction between Dragon Ferocity and Power Attack. It was likely an unanticipated interaction.
If we assume Power Attack is an effect that modifies normal weapon damage, Power Attack is multiplied on a critical hit and it falls under monk IUS rules for enhancing natural weapons.
If we assume Power Attack does not modify normal weapon damage, modifying only the result of the dice roll, the damage bonus is not multiplied on a critical hit.
We don't have to assume what Power Attack does. What it does is right there in the text.
In every single instance where a ruling has been made to date, bonuses and rules have all been ruled as inclusive. E.g. a character with a 16 STR still qualifies for Power Attack.
You're kidding right ? 'cause that's NOT a general rules that's the pre-requisite rules for feat :
Prerequisite: A minimum ability score, another feat or feats, a minimum base attack bonus, a minimum number of ranks in one or more skills, or anything else required in order to take the feat. This entry is absent if a feat has no prerequisite. A feat may have more than one prerequisite.
Having 1-1/2 Natural attack is not a pre-requisite it's a condition for the feat to trigger.
In this instance it's clear that the line about 1-1/2 Str Natural Attack in the Power Attack description is in regard to the natural attack rules paragraph :If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
We don't have to assume what Power Attack does. What it does is right there in the text.If we assume Power Attack is an effect that modifies normal weapon damage, Power Attack is multiplied on a critical hit and it falls under monk IUS rules for enhancing natural weapons.
If we assume Power Attack does not modify normal weapon damage, modifying only the result of the dice roll, the damage bonus is not multiplied on a critical hit.
Power Attack has no specific rules regarding damage multiplication on a critical hit, so general rules apply.
In an attempt to prevent Power Attack from working with Monk IUS + Dragon Ferocity, the argument is being made that Power Attack is not an effect that modifies normal weapon damage.
I disagree, but if this argument holds true the result is clearly spelled out under the general rules for critical hits. Only normal weapon damage is multiplied on a critical hit.
In every single instance where a ruling has been made to date, bonuses and rules have all been ruled as inclusive. E.g. a character with a 16 STR still qualifies for Power Attack.You're kidding right ? 'cause that's NOT a general rules that's the pre-requisite rules for feat :
Prerequisite: A minimum ability score, another feat or feats, a minimum base attack bonus, a minimum number of ranks in one or more skills, or anything else required in order to take the feat. This entry is absent if a feat has no prerequisite. A feat may have more than one prerequisite.
Yes, I used an example that was explicitly inclusive and did not require digging through FAQs.
Having 1-1/2 Natural attack is not a pre-requisite it's a condition for the feat to trigger.
In this instance it's clear that the line about 1-1/2 Str Natural Attack in the Power Attack description is in regard to the natural attack rules paragraph :
If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
That is the normal circumstance where Power Attack has a x1.5 modifier. There are specific circumstances outside the general rule where natural attacks may deal x1.5 STR. Dragon Ferocity, the bite attack of a dragon, some eidolon bite attacks, etc.
Power Attack checks only the strength modifier used, not how or why the modifier was obtained.
Oh forgot... By your reasoning if a monk make an Unarmed Strike it also made a Natural Attack... So by the rules he made an attack with a Natural Attack in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon
and unarmed strikes, so his attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using his base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of his Strength modif ier on damage rolls... :D
Oh forgot... By your reasoning if a monk make an Unarmed Strike it also made a Natural Attack... So by the rules he made an attack with a Natural Attack in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon
and unarmed strikes, so his attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using his base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of his Strength modif ier on damage rolls... :D
Monk IUS only counts as a manufactured weapons for effects that enhance or improve.
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Oh forgot... By your reasoning if a monk make an Unarmed Strike it also made a Natural Attack... So by the rules he made an attack with a Natural Attack in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon
and unarmed strikes, so his attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using his base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of his Strength modif ier on damage rolls... :DMonk IUS only counts as a manufactured weapons for effects that enhance or improve.
So Monk get to ignore all rules. Might as well ignore the number of attacks by BAB rule and use the most number of natural attacks you can find in a monster like octopus. So 1st level monks get 8 attacks. It's RAW!
So Monk get to ignore all rules. Might as well ignore the number of attacks by BAB rule and use the most number of natural attacks you can find in a monster like octopus. So 1st level monks get 8 attacks. It's RAW!
I don't believe general rules are classified as effects.
The RAW backing my statement has been provided.
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
1. If it is not beneficial to the monk for his IUS to fall under a specific classification, it does not.
2. General rules, such as BAB, have nothing to do with weapon classification. BAB is a static value altered only when level or hit-die change.
We don't have to assume what Power Attack does. What it does is right there in the text.If we assume Power Attack is an effect that modifies normal weapon damage, Power Attack is multiplied on a critical hit and it falls under monk IUS rules for enhancing natural weapons.
If we assume Power Attack does not modify normal weapon damage, modifying only the result of the dice roll, the damage bonus is not multiplied on a critical hit.
Power Attack has no specific rules regarding damage multiplication on a critical hit, so general rules apply.
In an attempt to prevent Power Attack from working with Monk IUS + Dragon Ferocity, the argument is being made that Power Attack is not an effect that modifies normal weapon damage.
I disagree, but if this argument holds true the result is clearly spelled out under the general rules for critical hits. Only normal weapon damage is multiplied on a critical hit.
If you want to argue that the equipment rules are more pertinent to combat than the rules for combat that are more specific in scope as well as detail, I guess in your games Power Attack damage shouldn't be multiplied for critical hits.
Do you also consider strength bonus an effect that modifies normal weapon damage? Because even more obviously than Power Attack, it really isn't. "Strength bonus: When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result." You add it to the damage result. That's the number resulting from the damage roll. The strength modifier doesn't enter into the equation until after the weapon's damage quality has been fully accounted for. You're not multiplying that for critical hits then, I guess?
And let's look at this for a moment:
Critical: The entry in this column notes how the weapon is used with the rules for critical hits. When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage two, three, or four times, as indicated by its critical multiplier (using all applicable modifiers on each roll), and add all the results together.
Extra damage over and above a weapon's normal damage (such as sneak attack damage or bonus damage from the flaming weapon quality) is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Consider the bolded part. You're supposed to add all applicable modifiers. What would you consider to be "applicable modifiers" that would also pass the restriction set by: "Extra damage over and above a weapon's normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit"?
But what I don't understand is : why does it matter if Power Attack is an effect or not ?
To know the bonus added by power attack here is how you do it for a Monk level 3 for example:
1) Decide to use Power Attack for the round. I'm in Dragon Style stance and use Dragon Ferocity.
2) Attack don't forget the -1 for Power Attack
4) If you touch yay damage time...
5) Determine your damage : Weapon dice+Str bonus (2x if first attack, 1-1/2 Str if others)+ Power Attack Bonus + Magic Bonus +Etc.
6) Determine Power Attack Bonus :
- Am I making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon ?
Yes : Bonus Power Attack +1 Damage.
NO I'm making an Unarmed Strike.
- Am I making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
Yes : Bonus Power Attack +3 Damage.
NO I'm making an Unarmed Strike.
- No to the two exceptions above ? Bonus Power Attack : +2 Damage.
Add the effect to your Damage roll... The effect is already determined you can't determine it anew...
End... :p
Oh forgot... By your reasoning if a monk make an Unarmed Strike it also made a Natural Attack... So by the rules he made an attack with a Natural Attack in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so his attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using his base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of his Strength modif ier on damage rolls... :DMonk IUS only counts as a manufactured weapons for effects that enhance or improve.
But it does count as Unarmed Weapon... See the bold part... ;)
That's not an effect that's the rules of how to treat the combination of an Unarmed Strike attack being used in the same round as a Natural Attack attack...
If you want to argue that the equipment rules are more pertinent to combat than the rules for combat that are more specific in scope as well as detail, I guess in your games Power Attack damage shouldn't be multiplied for critical hits.
My position is just the opposite: Power Attack is an effect that modifies normal weapon damage. In an attempt to prevent Power Attack from apply to Dragon Ferocity + Monk IUS, the argument was made that Power Attack was not an effect that modified normal weapon damage. I pointed out the affect this interpretation would have on other aspects of the game.
The rules for critical hits are defined under weapon qualities.
Critical: The entry in this column notes how the weapon is used with the rules for critical hits. When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage two, three, or four times, as indicated by its critical multiplier (using all applicable modifiers on each roll), and add all the results together.
Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.
Only normal weapon damage and modifiers to normal weapon damage are multiplied.
Do you also consider strength bonus an effect that modifies normal weapon damage? Because even more obviously than Power Attack, it really isn't. "Strength bonus: When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result." You add it to the damage result. That's the number resulting from the damage roll. The strength modifier doesn't enter into the equation until after the weapon's damage quality has been fully accounted for. You're not multiplying that for critical hits then, I guess?
Refer to my statement above.
I take it you agree that Power Attack is an effect that modifies weapon damage?
Understanding that said agreement is a point in my favor for the interaction of Monk IUS + Dragon Ferocity + Power Attack.
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The RAW backing my statement has been provided.Thanks for your RAW.
It's the same RAW I'm using to get 8 tentacle attacks as a 1st level Monk with no gear.
Only if you're playing an awakened octopus. But those of us who are humanoid can still punch/punch/kick/kick/headbutt/hipcheck at no penalty. Who needs flurry when unarmed strikes are primary natural weapons for all beneficial purposes? Making an attack per limb is an effective that enhances natural weapons.
There I clicked it lets burn one of that last few FAQs we will probably see for a while on this.
The fist is not an attack that deals one and a half strength damage. The fist is an attack that deals 1x strength damage, and you have a feat that very specifically adds a bonus of one half your strength damage.
Only if you're playing an awakened octopus. But those of us who are humanoid can still punch/punch/kick/kick/headbutt/hipcheck at no penalty. Who needs flurry when unarmed strikes are primary natural weapons for all beneficial purposes? Making an attack per limb is an effective that enhances natural weapons.The RAW backing my statement has been provided.Thanks for your RAW.
It's the same RAW I'm using to get 8 tentacle attacks as a 1st level Monk with no gear.
While I appreciate the attempt at Reductio ad Absurdium, the general rules for attacks/round are neither an effect nor a spell.
Power Attack, on the other hand, is an effect that enhances or improves.
The fist is not an attack that deals one and a half strength damage. The fist is an attack that deals 1x strength damage, and you have a feat that very specifically adds a bonus of one half your strength damage.
No, Dragon Ferocity should read "While using Dragon Style, increase your Strength bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls by an additional one-half your Strength bonus, to a total of twice your Strength bonus on the first attack and 1-1/2 your Strength bonus on the other attacks"
A monk using Dragon Ferocity deals x2 STR damage on the first attack each round and x1.5 STR damage on all other attack.
The fist is not an attack that deals one and a half strength damage. The fist is an attack that deals 1x strength damage, and you have a feat that very specifically adds a bonus of one half your strength damage.No, Dragon Ferocity should read "While using Dragon Style, increase your Strength bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls by an additional one-half your Strength bonus, to a total of twice your Strength bonus on the first attack and 1-1/2 your Strength bonus on the other attacks"A monk using Dragon Ferocity deals x2 STR damage on the first attack each round and x1.5 STR damage on all other attack.
Yes yes but it still is an unarmed strike for determining the bonus of power attack... The bonus is an effect, determining how much is the bonus is not...
The rules for critical hits are defined under weapon qualities.
No, they really aren't. They're in the Combat chapter.
Critical Hits: When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class, and you have scored a "threat," meaning the hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if it's a critical hit, you immediately make an attempt to "confirm" the critical hit—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the confirmation roll also results in a hit against the target's AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit, it doesn't need to come up 20 again.) If the confirmation roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.
A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.
Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon abilities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Increased Threat Range: Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn't result in a hit is not a threat.
Increased Critical Multiplier: Some weapons deal better than double damage on a critical hit (see Equipment).
Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit. If a spell causes ability damage or drain (see Special Abilities), the damage or drain is doubled on a critical hit.
These rules are, like I said earlier, more specific in scope as well as detail. The rules under weapon qualities don't even cover how to score critical hits. How can they be more pertinent?
I take it you agree that Power Attack is an effect that modifies weapon damage?
Of course I don't agree. I use the rules I quoted here for calculating critical hit damage, and I use the text of the Power Attack feat to determine how Power Attack actually fits into the melee damage calculations. Everything works fine.
Things go terribly wrong if you consider the combat rules to be less pertinent to combat than a incomplete section in the equipment rules. You'd have to twist dozens of rules and powers and read things into them that the text doesn't convey, Power Attack only the first among them, to make them fit with how we know all those rules are supposed to work.
Things work perfectly fine if you consider the combat rules to be more pertinent to combat than a incomplete section in the equipment rules.
the general rules for attacks/round are neither an effect nor a spell.I disagree, they are an effect of the game.
/əˈfekt/
noun
noun: effect; plural noun: effects
1. a change that is a result or consequence of an action or other cause.
1. The rules environment is not an effect unto itself.
2. Feats are specific changes to the general rules environment.
the general rules for attacks/round are neither an effect nor a spell.I disagree, they are an effect of the game.** spoiler omitted **
1. The rules environment is not an effect unto itself.2. Feats are specific changes to the general rules environment.
It's still you that merge the effect and how to determine this effect... First you calculate the effect then you apply it...
The fist is not an attack that deals one and a half strength damage. The fist is an attack that deals 1x strength damage, and you have a feat that very specifically adds a bonus of one half your strength damage.No, Dragon Ferocity should read "While using Dragon Style, increase your Strength bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls by an additional one-half your Strength bonus, to a total of twice your Strength bonus on the first attack and 1-1/2 your Strength bonus on the other attacks"A monk using Dragon Ferocity deals x2 STR damage on the first attack each round and x1.5 STR damage on all other attack.
I would say that it's Str + Str on the first attack and Str + 1/2 Str on the other attacks.
Of course Power Attack causes an effect. It explicitly calls what it does an effect. (... its effects last until your next turn.) It just isn't an effect that enhances or improves either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. It just provides a bonus to all melee damage rolls.
These rules are, like I said earlier, more specific in scope as well as detail. The rules under weapon qualities don't even cover how to score critical hits. How can they be more pertinent?
The rules I quoted are specific as to what is modified on a critical hit. How a critical hit is acquired is not relevant to the argument.
Of course I don't agree. I use the rules I quoted here for calculating critical hit damage, and I use the text of the Power Attack feat to determine how Power Attack actually fits into the melee damage calculations. Everything works fine.
Everything works fine if you accept that Power Attack is a modifier to normal weapon damage.
Do you agree that Power Attack is a modifier to normal weapon damage?
Things go terribly wrong if you consider the combat rules to be less pertinent to combat than a incomplete section in the equipment rules. You'd have to twist dozens of rules and powers and read things into them that the text doesn't convey, Power Attack only the first among them, to make them fit with how we know all those rules are supposed to work.
Things work perfectly fine if you consider the combat rules to be more pertinent to combat than a incomplete section in the equipment rules.
The only pertinent rules from either weapons or combat are the rules dictating what is multiplied on a critical hit. In this, there is no conflict between the two sections. The weapon quality Critical states that only normal weapon damage and modifiers are multiplied. The combat rules clarify how to handle multiple critical hit multiplies and specifically exempt bonus damage dice from multiplication
Of course Power Attack causes an effect. It explicitly calls what it does an effect. (... its effects last until your next turn.) It just isn't an effect that enhances or improves either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. It just provides a bonus to all melee damage rolls.
The bonus provided is dependent on the weapon used.
Most of the verbiage of Power Attack is dedicated to spelling this out.
Of course Power Attack causes an effect. It explicitly calls what it does an effect. (... its effects last until your next turn.) It just isn't an effect that enhances or improves either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. It just provides a bonus to all melee damage rolls.The bonus provided is dependent on the weapon used.
Most of the verbiage of Power Attack is dedicated to spelling this out.
You just check what kind of weapon is used. Having done that, you add the prescribed amount of damage to the damage roll. There's really not an iota of ambiguity in there.
"You can choose to take a –x penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +y bonus on all melee damage rolls."
That is what Power Attack does. And most of the verbiage explains how to arrive at the correct values for x and y.
The only pertinent rules from either weapons or combat are the rules dictating what is multiplied on a critical hit. In this, there is no conflict between the two sections. The weapon quality Critical states that only normal weapon damage and modifiers are multiplied. The combat rules clarify how to handle multiple critical hit multiplies and specifically exempt bonus damage dice from multiplication
The rules in the combat section tell you to "roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. " it then goes on to only exclude precision damage and extra damage dice from special weapon abilities.
The stunted rules in the equipment chapter are less clear about what to add and excludes not just the two types of extra damage, but all extra damage.
How is that not a conflict?
But what I don't understand is : why does it matter if Power Attack is an effect or not ?
To know the bonus added by power attack here is how you do it for a Monk level 3 for example:1) Decide to use Power Attack for the round. I'm in Dragon Style stance and use Dragon Ferocity.
2) Attack don't forget the -1 for Power Attack
4) If you touch yay damage time...
5) Determine your damage : Weapon dice+Str bonus (2x if first attack, 1-1/2 Str if others)+ Power Attack Bonus + Magic Bonus +Etc.
6) Determine Power Attack Bonus :- Am I making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon ?
Yes : Bonus Power Attack +1 Damage.
NO I'm making an Unarmed Strike.
- Am I making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
Yes : Bonus Power Attack +3 Damage.
NO I'm making an Unarmed Strike.
- No to the two exceptions above ? Bonus Power Attack : +2 Damage.Add the effect to your Damage roll... The effect is already determined you can't determine it anew...
End... :p
The disputed points are that monk IUS is treated as a natural weapon for effects that enhance or improve. And that Power Attack is an effect that modifies normal weapon damage.
Power Attack being an effect means it meets the conditions in monk IUS. Because Dragon Ferocity changes the strength modifier on IUS and Monk IUS is treated as a natural weapon, Power Attack uses the higher x1.5 modifier.
The current discussion has people contending that Power Attack modifies normal weapon damage (meaning it is multiplied on a critical hit), but it does not enhance or improve weapon damage (does not trigger the specific monk IUS rules for manufactured/natural weapons.)
It cannot be both.
The disputed points are that monk IUS is treated as a natural weapon for effects that enhance or improve. And that Power Attack is an effect that modifies normal weapon damage.
Power Attack being an effect means it meets the conditions in monk IUS. Because Dragon Ferocity changes the strength modifier on IUS and Monk IUS is treated as a natural weapon, Power Attack uses the higher x1.5 modifier.
The current discussion has people contending that Power Attack modifies normal weapon damage (meaning it is multiplied on a critical hit), but it does not enhance or improve weapon damage (does not trigger the specific monk IUS rules for manufactured/natural weapons.)
It cannot be both.
Of course it's both... Power Attack is an effect that impact damage.
The effect of power attack is +x damage. Whatever weapon we don't care...Determining the amount of +x is not an effect, it's an internal rule to the Power Attack feat that state the TYPE of attack you need to get the result of x... It's not an effect yet, it's a condition based on a type of attack... When x is determined it become an effect...
Clearer yet ? :)
You just check what kind of weapon is used. Having done that, you add the prescribed amount of damage to the damage roll. There's really not an iota of ambiguity in there.Of course Power Attack causes an effect. It explicitly calls what it does an effect. (... its effects last until your next turn.) It just isn't an effect that enhances or improves either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. It just provides a bonus to all melee damage rolls.The bonus provided is dependent on the weapon used.
Most of the verbiage of Power Attack is dedicated to spelling this out.
One of the disputed points is what kind of weapon. Monk IUS can be treated as manufactured and/or natural.
"You can choose to take a –x penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +y bonus on all melee damage rolls."
The modifier to melee damage rules is dependent on the weapon used and how the weapon is used. This leads us back to step one - weapon classification is disputed.
That is what Power Attack does. And most of the verbiage explains how to arrive at the correct values for x and y.
The only pertinent rules from either weapons or combat are the rules dictating what is multiplied on a critical hit. In this, there is no conflict between the two sections. The weapon quality Critical states that only normal weapon damage and modifiers are multiplied. The combat rules clarify how to handle multiple critical hit multiplies and specifically exempt bonus damage dice from multiplicationThe rules in the combat section tell you to "roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. " it then goes on to only exclude precision damage and extra damage dice from special weapon abilities.
And the Critical weapon property tells us what is multiplied - normal weapon damage and modifiers to normal weapon damage.
The stunted rules in the equipment chapter are less clear about what to add and excludes not just the two types of extra damage, but all extra damage.
How is that not a conflict?
Modifiers to normal weapon damage is undefined. We all assume this includes Power Attack, until the argument is made that Power Attack is not an effect that modifies weapon damage.
I pointed out how that interpretation would interact elsewhere in the rules.
It cannot be both.
Rubbish.
"A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together."
Power Attack is one of my usual bonuses.
"Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon abilities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit."
My Power Attack bonus is not excluded.
Thus, Power Attack damage is multiplied for criticals.
This is according to the rules system that takes us through the process of determining critical hits from the initiating attack roll down to the very end of determining the total damage. These are the rules you use for the purpose of critical hits. Not some stunted section that only discusses, ambiguously, a small part of the process. A section that requires you to ignore the actual text of the Power Attack feat to arrive at the result you want.
Again, you have perfectly clear rules that work with many additional rules without having to make weird baseless assumptions that go against the text of those additional rules. Why would you want to keep referring to some other incomplete and unclear section of rules that causes countless problems with a wide array of feats and powers?
The disputed points are that monk IUS is treated as a natural weapon for effects that enhance or improve. And that Power Attack is an effect that modifies normal weapon damage.
Power Attack being an effect means it meets the conditions in monk IUS. Because Dragon Ferocity changes the strength modifier on IUS and Monk IUS is treated as a natural weapon, Power Attack uses the higher x1.5 modifier.
The current discussion has people contending that Power Attack modifies normal weapon damage (meaning it is multiplied on a critical hit), but it does not enhance or improve weapon damage (does not trigger the specific monk IUS rules for manufactured/natural weapons.)
It cannot be both.
Of course it's both... Power Attack is an effect that impact damage.
The effect of power attack is +x damage. Whatever weapon we don't care...Determining the amount of +x is not an effect, it's an internal rule to the Power Attack feat that state the TYPE of attack you need to get the result of x... It's not an effect yet, it's a condition based on a type of attack... When x is determined it become an effect...
Clearer yet ? :)
This entire thread is about making that determination.
How to apply Power Attack (the effect) to a monk using IUS + Dragon Ferocity. The rules text of Power Attack tell us what information we need to resolve Power Attack and the affect of Power Attack upon resolution.
...
Power Attack IS an effect that effect that affect whatever weapon you've got... The effect of Power Attack is +x damage.
Determining x is not an effect, it's the result of the internal rules of the Power Attack feat which depend on the TYPE of attack you're using... In this case you're not using a Natural Attack but an Unarmed Strike...
Monk US is considered NA for effect not for rules determining this effect...
It cannot be both.Rubbish.
"A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together."
Power Attack is one of my usual bonuses.
Critical: The entry in this column notes how the weapon is used with the rules for critical hits. When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage two, three, or four times, as indicated by its critical multiplier (using all applicable modifiers on each roll), and add all the results together.
Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
"Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon abilities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit."
My Power Attack bonus is not excluded.
Thus, Power Attack damage is multiplied for criticals.
There is no specific exclusion, but neither is there a specific inclusion. The RAW for criticals states only modifiers to weapon damage are multiplied. If you want to assert that Power Attack is an effect that modifies weapon damage, I have no issues with that.
It just means Power Attack also meets the condition for monk IUS.
This is according to the rules system that takes us through the process of determining critical hits from the initiating attack roll down to the very end of determining the total damage. These are the rules you use for the purpose of critical hits. Not some stunted section that only discusses, ambiguously, a small part of the process. A section that requires you to ignore the actual text of the Power Attack feat to arrive at the result you want.
The RAW for weapon properties and how they are applied is a part of this rules system. So are monk IUS, Dragon Ferocity, and Power Attack. If you tamper with how one element interacts with the rules system it causes ripples, or tidal waves, elsewhere.
...Power Attack IS an effect that effect that affect whatever weapon you've got... The effect of Power Attack is +x damage.
Determining x is not an effect, it's the result of the internal rules of the Power Attack feat which depend on the TYPE of attack you're using... In this case you're not using a Natural Attack but an Unarmed Strike...
Monk US is considered NA for effect not for rules determining this effect...
Determining X is integral to resolving the effect.
Hey Snowlilly.
Critical: The entry in this column notes how the weapon is used with the rules for critical hits. When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage two, three, or four times, as indicated by its critical multiplier (using all applicable modifiers on each roll), and add all the results together.
Extra damage over and above a weapon's normal damage (such as sneak attack damage or bonus damage from the flaming weapon quality) is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
×2: The weapon deals double damage on a critical hit. Some weapons deal triple or quadruple damage.
×2/×3: One head of this double weapon deals double damage on a critical hit. The other head deals triple damage. Some double weapons' heads deal triple and quadruple damage on a critical hit.
19–20/×2: The weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 19 or 20 (instead of just 20) and deals double damage on a critical hit. Some weapons score a threat on a natural 18 as well, or deal triple instead of double damage on a critical hit.
Power Attack doesn't effect weapon damage and now we know for certain your wrong about the Critical thing.
So where are you going to move the goalpost to now?
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This has spiraled out of control unarmed strike is a light weapon not a natural weapon. Light weapons gains no benefit from 1½ power attack as the bonus counts only on attacks with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
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Yeah. Unarmed Strikes simply don't meet the conditions for extra Power Attack damage.
I think that Snowlily is violating the flow of information.
We have a label that has a definition which applies an effect.
Other abilities alter the effect, so that it fits another definition.
That does not mean the label changes.
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The back and forth on this is a classic debate team "yes, no" type of argument.
Power Attack will be at -1/+2 for Monks (or the ramp up for BAB ramps) unless the monk as a way to do a Haymaker with both "hands." Keep in mind, if you using claws from a feat, you either use the claws (for normal Claw damage, 1d4 plus STR mod for Med creatures) or use the back of the hands or fist for Unarmed Strikes (using Monk damage if your a monk)
Nothing I have seen "from the other side" has changed this, and several posts by most here have sited this lack of being an actual natural weapon.
Now, there was something in 3.5 that allowed for the use of an Haymaker, I believe. late in the cycle about a year before the next edition of the worlds oldest RPG came into being.