Why do certain spells still exist?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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While the caster/martial discrepancy is well known, some preticular offenders come up time and time and time again, to the point where I'm baffled nothing has been done.

Clone and simulacrum-

Two spells that completly break the game, allowing for contengnecy resserection and the creation of creatures that are so strong they may as well be a whole extra charecter.

These two spells are so mind-bogglingly broken, but they really get out of hand because of-

Blood money-
Conceptually, this spell is neat. In practice, it's broken.
It's even more broken because, as far as I know, they still haven't come out and said that "blood money + ray of enfeeblement" doesn't work.

But both tend to pale in comparison to-

Emergency force sphere-
The single worst spell I have ever seen printed.
Allows you to stop any incoming attack from any direction but down as an immidate action, and makes you immune for your level in turns so you can buff or teleport away, all as a 4th level spell. This single handedly negates a martial's abilty to kill a caster, as the caster can throw this up instantly and then teleport away. Speaking of teleports...

Teleports-
Why oh why are teleports still a full round or standard action?
This allows mages to get away from threats with little more then a five foot step and a snap of thier fingers. Even if it took two rounds, it would give Martials precious time to interrupt the ability, but instead, it's considered acceptable that wizards can basically always flee to see another day. While yes, this can be sorta negated with step up, that doesn't really solve the issue, because they can then take a crack at casting defensively, or if they're a conjuration wizard, teleport as a swift action.

If all of this was intended, then frankly, every enemy wizard should be abusing these spells-
After all, with a high INT and spellcraft, they would certianly know what they are, and what they can do.
Basically every wizard above 7th level should have emergency force sphere prepared.
Every wizard above level 13 should have an army of blood money similacrums, and blood money permanaced spells, and a contengnecy.

Contengnecy is another problem, but that one is so obvious I won't even go into it.

It just seems like these spells are being willfully ignored, as they pick apart martial options.

I don't get it.

Alright, rant over, you can go back to your leasurely form scrolling.


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I agree... there are spells around that are beyond nerfing, they shouldnt even exist.


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Some of those spells have been a fundamental part of the game since it's inception.

You would be changing the feel and higher level play of the game by removing some of them.

Might as well just change game systems if you find them that disturbing. It would have about the same impact on how the world worked.


As a note, I didn't mention spells like polymorph any object-

I'm not so sure it's overpowered, but instead just explained really, really badly.


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Snowlilly wrote:

Some of those spells have been a fundamental part of the game since it's inception.

You would be changing the feel and higher level play of the game by removing some of them.

Might as well just change game systems if you find them that disturbing. It would have about the same impact on how the world worked.

I like the system, a lot.

I've spent countless hours on the ocg just memorizing rules options and making builds.
I've got a whole thread dedicated to my ventures to the limits of the system.

But there are a few spells that are so terribly, horribly broken, that they make everything else meaningless at high level.

Why would anyone in such a world aspire to be anything but a wizard?

If every option thst has been around a long time was allowed, why doesn't everyone take leadership?

It just seems like some poorly desinged are being kept around for "tradition" instead of any sensible reason.


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Those are fair criticisms, Blood Money should simply be banned in most home games, Emergency Force Sphere should be closer to 8th level, Teleport I'm not as convinced is terrible but I see your point.

There is a general trade-off between publishing lots of stuff, publishing interesting stuff, and publishing balanced stuff. If offered "Your player options can be frequently expanded, exciting, and balanced, but you can only pick two." which two would you pick? Cutting back on the pace of expansions to make them better is a tough pitch to authors who want to pay rent *every* month.

GMs have long had to do a lot of work sorting published options into acceptable and unacceptable. Bloat (IMO) is the word for when that work becomes overwhelming. I have been starting to think that Pathfinder is too bloated and am increasingly tempted to jump ship to something tidier. PFS is a good resource, they have much tighter character creation rules (Blood Money for example was banned), magic item creation is simply cut entirely, etc... Still, PFS mainly only goes to 11th level so shenanigans that arise after that aren't a priority.


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Because Paizo can't unprint a spell.

If you don't want those spells in your game, don't allow them. I find that "not letting casters learn any spell they want" can fix a lot of the problems with high level spells. There's enough there on the 7-9 wizard/sorc list that if you don't give out Simulacrum, Planar Binding, and Wish it's not like Wizards are going to be weak.

Personally, I recontextualized the effect of a bunch of your really high level spells that you wouldn't cast in the midst of combat as occult rituals. You can still transport the party to a different continent or plane of existence via magic, it's just more involved than "expending a spell slot."


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In the case of Blood Money, most people ignore the most important part about this spell: there is only one copy of it in existence and it's in the possession of the Runelord of Greed, Karzoug. It was intended to serve as a reward for completing the entire Rise of the Runelords AP, and if you're just giving this spell away as just a scroll or a standard level-up spell it's being acquired way too cheaply.


Dasrak wrote:
In the case of Blood Money, most people ignore the most important part about this spell: there is only one copy of it in existence and it's in the possession of the Runelord of Greed, Karzoug. It was intended to serve as a reward for completing the entire Rise of the Runelords AP, and if you're just giving this spell away to any 1st level Wizard then you're misusing it.

Good to know.

I don't read lore. Like, any of it.

I own zero galorion books at all.

I like the system. I don't touch the lore.


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No. Nobody has to change systems because a spell or a few are removed. That's just silly. The game will change. Priorities will change. And that is okay. Pathfinder as a system is able to handle much, much more than the "level appropriate dungeoncrawl" it's seen as. And, by many people, PREFERRED to be.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

Because Paizo can't unprint a spell.

If you don't want those spells in your game, don't allow them. I find that "not letting casters learn any spell they want" can fix a lot of the problems with high level spells. There's enough there on the 7-9 wizard/sorc list that if you don't give out Simulacrum, Planar Binding, and Wish it's not like Wizards are going to be weak.

A fair point.

When you're a player, I guess you just have to hope your GM dislikes those spells as much as you do.

Err, I do? Hm. Not quite sure how to correctly write that.


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Would long-distance teleportation effects be less broken in your mind if the casting time was increased in direct proportion to how on-target you want to be? (Otherwise referred to as "Sure, you could poof off away from here, but with only a standard action to chart a course you could wind up in worse shape than you'd be if you stayed here")


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technarken wrote:
Would long-distance teleportation effects be less broken in your mind if the casting time was increased in direct proportion to how on-target you want to be? (Otherwise referred to as "Sure, you could poof off away from here, but with only a standard action to chart a course you could wind up in worse shape than you'd be if you stayed here")

defninatly.

I like wizards having the ability to teleport, and well, just generally have the most "plot power".

But being able to completely evade the guy who dedicated all his life to combat in an instant seems, well, silly.


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icehawk333 wrote:

Good to know.

I don't read lore. Like, any of it.

I totally get that. I presume you primarily use D20PFSRD as a source? One thing I would suggest is to check the sourcebook that the content came from, which is listed in the copyright notice at the bottom of the page. If the content came from an adventure path, then that's a red flag that there could be something very context-specific that isn't obvious from the content alone.


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Dasrak wrote:
icehawk333 wrote:

Good to know.

I don't read lore. Like, any of it.

I totally get that. I presume you primarily use D20PFSRD as a source? One thing I would suggest is to check the sourcebook that the content came from, which is listed in the copyright notice at the bottom of the page. If the content came from an adventure path, then that's a red flag that there could be something very context-specific that isn't obvious from the content alone.

So noted.


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icehawk333 wrote:

A fair point.

When you're a player, I guess you just have to hope your GM dislikes those spells as much as you do.

I feel like the best way to go about this is just to, as a group, curate a list of spells that are absolutely unreasonable in the hands of PCs, spells that are pushing it but are okay as rewards for "I went on a quest to gain this knowledge" sorts of things, spells that require a little digging, but not much, and spells that are absolutely fine and you can learn them without asking questions.

This sort of thing is easiest to do when you rotate GMs so everybody gets to see every perspective.


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icehawk333 wrote:
I like the system. I don't touch the lore.

That is perfectly fine, but it is useful to know where various things come from.

Personally, I consider things from the core line of books to be standard, vetted material, the splat books to be generally allowed but understood not to be as well vetted and stuff published in adventure paths to be even less 'core' for my games. In particular, understanding where blood money comes from, lets you explain why it doesn't exist in your world.

As for your other spells, I think the only one that is really a problem is Simulacrum, which is a legacy spell and needs to be redesigned/clarified. Detailing what happens with spell-like abilities and limiting the spell to target creatures HD being <= caster level (meaning the best simulacrum you could make would be half your caster level) would probably fix most issues with it.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
icehawk333 wrote:

A fair point.

When you're a player, I guess you just have to hope your GM dislikes those spells as much as you do.

I feel like the best way to go about this is just to, as a group, curate a list of spells that are absolutely unreasonable in the hands of PCs, spells that are pushing it but are okay as rewards for "I went on a quest to gain this knowledge" sorts of things, spells that require a little digging, but not much, and spells that are absolutely fine and you can learn them without asking questions.

This sort of thing is easiest to do when you rotate GMs so everybody gets to see every perspective.

Thanks for this.

I'll be honest, I was not expecting this much actual, sensible advice.


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Dave Justus wrote:
icehawk333 wrote:
I like the system. I don't touch the lore.

That is perfectly fine, but it is useful to know where various things come from.

Personally, I consider things from the core line of books to be standard, vetted material, the splat books to be generally allowed but understood not to be as well vetted and stuff published in adventure paths to be even less 'core' for my games. In particular, understanding where blood money comes from, lets you explain why it doesn't exist in your world.

As for your other spells, I think the only one that is really a problem is Simulacrum, which is a legacy spell and needs to be redesigned/clarified. Detailing what happens with spell-like abilities and limiting the spell to target creatures HD being <= caster level (meaning the best simulacrum you could make would be half your caster level) would probably fix most issues with it.

To be clear, I use only the ocg to get all my info.

I'll be honest, while I don't like simulacrum, I dislike emergency force sphere even more.
For everything on thst list, emergency force sphere is the spell I dislike more then any other.
I'm gonna check if it's an AP spell.

Cheliax, empire of devils. Seems like it.


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Chelix book is where its from.


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Once again, thanks for all the kind feedback.


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Not sure I agree with anything you said but you put it out in a logical way.

Admittedly I will be using Emergency Force Sphere as a player and a DM. Muahahhaah! Never heard of that spell before. :)

I do have one question though. "blood money + ray of enfeeblement"

Why is that combo broken? Ray of enfeeblement doesn't have a spell component or am I looking at the wrong version of blood money???

I'm assuming I'm missing something???

Thanks. :)


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Lemartes wrote:

Not sure I agree with anything you said but you put it out in a logical way.

Admittedly I will be using Emergency Force Sphere as a player and a DM. Muahahhaah! Never heard of that spell before. :)

I do have one question though. "blood money + ray of enfeeblement"

Why is that combo broken? Ray of enfeeblement doesn't have a spell component or am I looking at the wrong version of blood money???

I'm assuming I'm missing something???

Thanks. :)

Ray of enfeeblement, while under the effect of the spell, prevents you from ever dropping below 1 STR, allowing for infinate blood money.

Luckily, Blood money, as I found out, is nearly impossible to obtain.

Silver Crusade

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icehawk333 wrote:
Lemartes wrote:

Not sure I agree with anything you said but you put it out in a logical way.

Admittedly I will be using Emergency Force Sphere as a player and a DM. Muahahhaah! Never heard of that spell before. :)

I do have one question though. "blood money + ray of enfeeblement"

Why is that combo broken? Ray of enfeeblement doesn't have a spell component or am I looking at the wrong version of blood money???

I'm assuming I'm missing something???

Thanks. :)

Ray of enfeeblement, while under the effect of the spell, prevents you from ever dropping below 1 STR, allowing for infinate blood money.

Luckily, Blood money, as I found out, is nearly impossible to obtain.

Pretty sure that's only referring to the penalty from RoE, and most if not all GMs will rule likewise.


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Also Blood money does damage which doesn't actually lower your score so it doesn't matter if your score cannot go bellow 1


Rysky wrote:
icehawk333 wrote:
Lemartes wrote:

Not sure I agree with anything you said but you put it out in a logical way.

Admittedly I will be using Emergency Force Sphere as a player and a DM. Muahahhaah! Never heard of that spell before. :)

I do have one question though. "blood money + ray of enfeeblement"

Why is that combo broken? Ray of enfeeblement doesn't have a spell component or am I looking at the wrong version of blood money???

I'm assuming I'm missing something???

Thanks. :)

Ray of enfeeblement, while under the effect of the spell, prevents you from ever dropping below 1 STR, allowing for infinate blood money.

Luckily, Blood money, as I found out, is nearly impossible to obtain.

Pretty sure that's only referring to the penalty from RoE, and most if not all GMs will rule likewise.

I think that's sensible, and what DM's should do, but it's not what the spell says.

"The subject's Strength score cannot drop below 1."

And that can be fixed by adding-
"The subject's Strength score cannot drop below 1 due to this penalty, but can bed reduced below 1 by other sources of STR damage."

I've seen Ray of enfeeblement + blood money enough times that I just kinda wish pazio would just say that it doesn't work and move on.

But I also tend to read into caster VS martial threads a lot.

So I tend to find a lot of the worst of casters.


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Firewarrior44 wrote:
Also Blood money does damage which doesn't actually lower your score so it doesn't matter if your score cannot go bellow 1

I find this equally as logical as the Ray of enfeeblement argument, and will use it whenever it is brought up, thank you.

Geez you all are putting me in a good mood.

Sense and politeness all around. (Mostly)


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Rysky wrote:
icehawk333 wrote:

Ray of enfeeblement, while under the effect of the spell, prevents you from ever dropping below 1 STR, allowing for infinate blood money.

Luckily, Blood money, as I found out, is nearly impossible to obtain.

Pretty sure that's only referring to the penalty from RoE, and most if not all GMs will rule likewise.

I doesn't matter how Ray of Enfeeble works.

Ability damage doesn't lower your ability score, so it can never cause your strength score to "drop below 1". As soon as you take damage equal to your score, you fall unconscious; you're score never changes.

For that matter, penalties don't lower your ability score either. So that passage is either just a redundant reminder of how all penalties work, or has some strange interaction with ability drain (the only way an ability score can truly drop below 1). In either case, there's no interaction with damage or penalties


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icehawk333 wrote:
Dasrak wrote:
In the case of Blood Money, most people ignore the most important part about this spell: there is only one copy of it in existence and it's in the possession of the Runelord of Greed, Karzoug. It was intended to serve as a reward for completing the entire Rise of the Runelords AP, and if you're just giving this spell away to any 1st level Wizard then you're misusing it.

Good to know.

I don't read lore. Like, any of it.

I own zero galorion books at all.

I like the system. I don't touch the lore.

It´s already been mentioned, but with PF, the actual source is important and something to be checked out.

That´s not so much because of the lore, but because the level of Quality Assurance seems to be different for the individual product lines.
New rules to show up as part of an AP will most likely be there to flash out an NPC or important enemy, like the Juju Oracle mystery.
Stuff that came up in Monster Codex/Villain Codex can be used for players characters, sure, but was written to showcase some enemy builds and enhance their style. See the famously overpowered Orc bloodline for this.

That´s a bit of a problem when using the d20pfsrd site, as they used to "flex off" the fluff, so it is harder to see which quality category we talk about and if it´s intended to be used by players or gms.

So it´s a good stance to not automatically green-light stuff just because it´s Paizo.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

Because Paizo can't unprint a spell.

If you don't want those spells in your game, don't allow them. I find that "not letting casters learn any spell they want" can fix a lot of the problems with high level spells. There's enough there on the 7-9 wizard/sorc list that if you don't give out Simulacrum, Planar Binding, and Wish it's not like Wizards are going to be weak.

Personally, I recontextualized the effect of a bunch of your really high level spells that you wouldn't cast in the midst of combat as occult rituals. You can still transport the party to a different continent or plane of existence via magic, it's just more involved than "expending a spell slot."

Wish stops being overpowered the moment you stop theorycrafting and start enforcing the material component cost.

Even a 20th level wizard will quickly go bankrupt if relying on Wish.

Abuse of Planar Binding is also easily handled. Just remember a few caveats in the spell.

Planar Binding wrote:
unreasonable commands are never agreed to.
Planar Binding wrote:
The creature might later seek revenge.
Planar Binding wrote:
Note that a clever recipient can subvert some instructions.


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i think the problem is that most magic users are aware of these strong spells as a solution to most of their problems, and plan on learning such spells accordingly - while most martial characters focus so much on just doing the most damage to the most things as possible...

The end result is - they are screwed when facing high level intelligent magic users.

That does not mean - though - that PAIZO has not provided the necessary resources for martial character to be able to shut down these magic users and prevent them from getting away... it just means the players playing them are choosing to use there resources for other things.

Having a high enough UMD for things like scrolls of Dimensional Lock may not be reasonable...

But Step Up as well as Step Up and Strike feats can put a real hamper on a mage's escape plans. They might need to stick around and cast defensively - in which case, the Disruptive feat makes if far more difficult for them to get their spells off in the first place. Drinking a potion of Silence before closing in on the wizard shuts down most of the escape spells (e.g., emergency force sphere, dimension door, and teleport). Now it seems that their only hope of escape is to get 25' away from you and cast. They could choose to take the Attack of Opportunity from moving away from you, but they know you could trip them and they would be screwed, so they chose to full withdraw, and HOPE that your armor will slow you down enough that they can get away to a place they can cast next round. What they didn't account for was PIN DOWN - and now they are stuck - right in front of you and it is your turn... FULL ATTACK TIME.


Weird. Planar Binding also came up on a gitp discussion today.

The major problem with this spells is the huge amount of meta-game knowledge involved, same problem as with 3.5E Polymorph. The make it, break it point is the player actually knowing what´s in the Bestiaries and picking the right critter for the job.... At that point, you´d actually have to pose the question of how a character can have actual knowledge of that critters existence and capabilities.


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Oddman80 wrote:

i think the problem is that most magic users are aware of these strong spells as a solution to most of their problems, and plan on learning such spells accordingly - while most martial characters focus so much on just doing the most damage to the most things as possible...

The end result is - they are screwed when facing high level intelligent magic users.

That does not mean - though - that PAIZO has not provided the necessary resources for martial character to be able to shut down these magic users and prevent them from getting away... it just means the players playing them are choosing to use there resources for other things.

Having a high enough UMD for things like scrolls of Dimensional Lock may not be reasonable...

But Step Up as well as Step Up and Strike feats can put a real hamper on a mage's escape plans. They might need to stick around and cast defensively - in which case, the Disruptive feat makes if far more difficult for them to get their spells off in the first place. Drinking a potion of Silence before closing in on the wizard shuts down most of the escape spells (e.g., emergency force sphere, dimension door, and teleport). Now it seems that their only hope of escape is to get 25' away from you and cast. They could choose to take the Attack of Opportunity from moving away from you, but they know you could trip them and they would be screwed, so they chose to full withdraw, and HOPE that your armor will slow you down enough that they can get away to a place they can cast next round. What they didn't account for was PIN DOWN - and now they are stuck - right in front of you and it is your turn... FULL ATTACK TIME.

They can put up an emergency force shield the moment you drink a potion of sIlence, unless you're already within 25 feet before you drank it.

None of this can stop the conjuration wizard from swift action teleporting away.

Drinking a potion eats up an action that the wizard can reply with by using dispel magic, a spell I'd assume every wizard ever prepares.

I'd also assume most have a lesser or better metamagic rod of silence.

If the wizard, like every wizard, cast overland flight at the start of the day, they can't be tripped, so they can move away normally. They take one AOO. Out of range of silence, and out of reach, they demention door. Fight over.
Two always prepared spells, fight over.

The reason emergency force spehere is so abhorrent is thst it prevents the fighter from one turn killing the Mage. As that's the fighter's only way to kill a Mage- on turn one.


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Snowlilly wrote:

Some of those spells have been a fundamental part of the game since it's inception.

You would be changing the feel and higher level play of the game by removing some of them.

Might as well just change game systems if you find them that disturbing. It would have about the same impact on how the world worked.

This is one of the most absurdly over the top posts I've read in a while.

Pretty damn sure that Pathfinder - Emergency Force Sphere is still Pathfinder.


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Purple Overkill wrote:

Weird. Planar Binding also came up on a gitp discussion today.

The major problem with this spells is the huge amount of meta-game knowledge involved, same problem as with 3.5E Polymorph. The make it, break it point is the player actually knowing what´s in the Bestiaries and picking the right critter for the job.... At that point, you´d actually have to pose the question of how a character can have actual knowledge of that critters existence and capabilities.

Planular binding isn't even on the list of spells I complained about.

Nor was wish.

Because They both have caveats.

I don't mind either, but it seems they got dragged in.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Purple Overkill wrote:
At that point, you´d actually have to pose the question of how a character can have actual knowledge of that critters existence and capabilities.

Well, wizards are known for having big piles of int and by extension often have very good knowledge scores, so I'm not sure it's actually that hard to justfy.


swoosh wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:

Some of those spells have been a fundamental part of the game since it's inception.

You would be changing the feel and higher level play of the game by removing some of them.

Might as well just change game systems if you find them that disturbing. It would have about the same impact on how the world worked.

This is one of the most absurdly over the top posts I've read in a while.

Pretty damn sure that Pathfinder - Emergency Force Sphere is still Pathfinder.

Some =/= all.

Except, perhaps, in the black & white universe certain people choose to live in.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I tell my players it's core only. Anything outside of core needs my approval.

Though I let most things through, it gives me the opportunity to see what they want and why.

I find that simple, good GMing interaction such as this, stops 99% of shenanigans.


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From a PC's perspective, clone, at best, serves as an inexpensive resurrection *** if *** the group survives. If it's a TPK, then clone works as a resurrection that costs everything you own.

Clone exists for the campaigns that focus on the BBEG but do not want to use another lich. Clone is an option that writers can use to extend a campaign if the writer is not confined by NPC wealth tables...

"Of course my conqueror has duplicates of all his items; he's THAT prepared. In fact, he underestimated you the first time and left his unique artifact back here with his clone rather than annihilating all of you out with it ten levels ago."


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icehawk333 wrote:

While the caster/martial discrepancy is well known, some preticular offenders come up time and time and time again, to the point where I'm baffled nothing has been done.

Clone and simulacrum-

Two spells that completly break the game, allowing for contengnecy resserection and the creation of creatures that are so strong they may as well be a whole extra charecter.

These two spells are so mind-bogglingly broken, but they really get out of hand because of-

Blood money-
Conceptually, this spell is neat. In practice, it's broken.
It's even more broken because, as far as I know, they still haven't come out and said that "blood money + ray of enfeeblement" doesn't work.

But both tend to pale in comparison to-

Emergency force sphere-
The single worst spell I have ever seen printed.
Allows you to stop any incoming attack from any direction but down as an immidate action, and makes you immune for your level in turns so you can buff or teleport away, all as a 4th level spell. This single handedly negates a martial's abilty to kill a caster, as the caster can throw this up instantly and then teleport away. Speaking of teleports...

Teleports-
Why oh why are teleports still a full round or standard action?
This allows mages to get away from threats with little more then a five foot step and a snap of thier fingers. Even if it took two rounds, it would give Martials precious time to interrupt the ability, but instead, it's considered acceptable that wizards can basically always flee to see another day. While yes, this can be sorta negated with step up, that doesn't really solve the issue, because they can then take a crack at casting defensively, or if they're a conjuration wizard, teleport as a swift action.

If all of this was intended, then frankly, every enemy wizard should be abusing these spells-
After all, with a high INT and spellcraft, they would certianly know what they are, and what they can do.
Basically every wizard above 7th level should have emergency force sphere prepared....

Totally agree with most/all of this. If/when I GM a game slight spell list modification will be included in my game. Along with things like 4+INT skill points minimum for all classes except INT casters.


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BARBARIAN REALLY NOT SEE PROBLEM WITH MERGENCY FORCE SPHERE.

BARBARIAN JUST SUNDER SPHERE WITH FIRST ITERATIVE, THEN SMASH CASTY WITH OTHER ITERATIVE.

IF CASTY AM PUTTING THAT UP, AM LIKE EASY WIN FOR BARBARIAN. THEN THEY AM LIKE 'NUH UH HAS CLONE' AND BARBARIAN AM LIKE 'K WELL BARBARIAN HAS ALL STUFF YOU AM HAVING BEFORE SO UH GOOD LUCK WITH THAT' AND THEN THEY AM COMING UP WITH DIFFERENT STRATEGY BUT AM WORSE STRAIGHT UP SO BARBARIAN AM JUST LIKE 'WELL, OKAY THEN, GUESS BARBARIAN AM SMASHING AGAIN' AND THEY AM LIKE 'WELL CLONE ALSO AM HAVING CLONE!!'

THIS AM USUALLY WHEN BARBARIAN JUST LIKE, COME ON, YOU BEING SERIOUS RIGHT NOW?? THIS AM LIKE TRIPLE WBL AND BARBARIAN SINCERELY APPRECIATE FREE STUFF BUT SPELLBOOKS AM HAVING LIMITED RESALE VALUE IN COMPARISON TO COOL SWORDS AND GEMS AND STUFF.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Good luck with that if the GM rules that only unchained AM BARBARIANs exist in his games.

Grand Lodge

Any GM that commits that attrocity should be burned at the stake.


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Ravingdork wrote:
Good luck with that if the GM rules that only unchained AM BARBARIANs exist in his games.

IF GM HAVING TO NERF BARBARIAN SO THAT CASTYS AM ABLE KEEP UP, BARBARIAN POINT AM DEMONSTRABLY PROVEN.

Q E D.

ALSO AM DIRTY FIAT.


icehawk333 wrote:

They can put up an emergency force shield the moment you drink a potion of sIlence, unless you're already within 25 feet before you drank it.

None of this can stop the conjuration wizard from swift action teleporting away.

Drinking a potion eats up an action that the wizard can reply with by using dispel magic, a spell I'd assume...

Yes - the assumption is that you are trying to hunt down the wizard in this scenario - like adventureres often do - so some scouting and magical trap avoidance and pre-buffing are to be assumed.

the silence is on the fighter before they bash down the doors to the wizard's sanctum (and remember, while violent, the bashing down of the doors would make no noise).

when flat footed - you cannot take immediate actions. so the movement by the fighter up to the wizard occurs in the surprise round and he is now in danger.

regardless of possessing metamagic rods of silence, it is doubtful the wizard is holding one in his hand at the ready - so retrieving a stowed item is an attack of opportunity.

the Wizard cannot simply dispel the silence while in it, as the spell has verbal components.

If the wizard has overland flight up, then that could prevent tripping, but no trip master fighter goes into battle without also maxing out their reach: Hello pliant gloves, enlarged person, reach weapon, and a self-casting of long arm (from that level of witch you took in order to gain the spell as well as fortune and cackle - cause nothing is scarier than a maniacally laughing fighter that always seems to hit on his first try) and of course, combat reflexes.

Good luck getting away, when the fighter has a 90' diameter area in which he threatens


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Snowlilly wrote:

Some of those spells have been a fundamental part of the game since it's inception.

You would be changing the feel and higher level play of the game by removing some of them.

Might as well just change game systems if you find them that disturbing. It would have about the same impact on how the world worked.

I'd argue the ONLY spell in OP's list that wizards are "expected" to make use of is Teleport.

Simulacrum and Clone are spells that are primarily meant for NPC bosses to use against the heroes, not for the PCs to learn advanced minionmancing as their WBL ticks up. Summoning and undead/construct creation is quite bad enough as it is for letting mages turn gold into action economy.

The world keeps spinning if you don't let Castypants have his "LOLNOPE" button for when something might actually hurt him before he's ready.

Blood Money shouldn't even exist in any game except Rise of the Runelords; if you didn't beat the Runelord of Greed how exactly are you casting his personal spell?

Hell, even Teleport's kind of a pain in the neck because they basically made long-distance travel a joke at higher levels. So now high-level adventures either need to account for a journey of a thousand miles being basically meaningless to a high-level party or come up with another excuse why you just can't teleport here, OK?


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icehawk333 wrote:

Teleports-

Why oh why are teleports still a full round or standard action?
This allows mages to get away from threats with little more then a five foot step and a snap of thier fingers. Even if it took two rounds, it would give Martials precious time to interrupt the ability, but instead, it's considered acceptable that wizards can basically always flee to see another day. While yes, this can be sorta negated with step up, that doesn't really solve the issue, because they can then take a crack at casting defensively, or if they're a conjuration wizard, teleport as a swift action.

For many players, spells like that don't create noticeable disparity issues. Most groups are a mixture of martials and casters. If the martials and casters were trying to kill each other, teleport would make it an unfair contest. But mostly the casters are doing things like teleporting their martial allies into useful positions, or saving their lives by teleporting them away from danger. The martials don't get jealous, they're just glad their caster friend had that spell on hand.

There's also the situation of enemy casters with teleportation abilities taking on martial-focused groups. But if that's a problem the GM can easily fix it by having them prepare something else instead.

So while there is a problem, it's more at the level of "Groups with more casters have an easier time with many kinds of challenge (though most adventures are written in such a way that almost all problems can be solved by hitting them with a big sword)" or "Certain mundane abilities can be made redundant by casting spells (if that's what you want to use your limited spell slots on)".


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doc roc wrote:
I agree... there are spells around that are beyond nerfing, they shouldnt even exist.

While I do acknowledge the C/MD and fully believe that some specific spells are a great cause of it, I still have to say that I disagree with this statement.

I want those options to be there. They shouldn't necessarily be accessible to as many players as they are now but they should be possible.


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Oddman80 wrote:


Yes - the assumption is that you are trying to hunt down the wizard in this scenario - like adventureres often do - so some scouting and magical trap avoidance and pre-buffing are to be assumed.

All good here

Oddman80 wrote:
the silence is on the fighter before they bash down the doors to the wizard's sanctum (and remember, while violent, the bashing down of the doors would make no noise).

So the wizard has no magical detection in his lair to let him know someone might be coming? And has no other protection in his sanctum but himself?

Oddman80 wrote:
when flat footed - you cannot take immediate actions. so the movement by the fighter up to the wizard occurs in the surprise round and he is now in danger.

Assumes wizard 1. isnt a divinaation specialist, sure that's resonable. 2. He has no forewarning of the party. 3. Fails to notice them and act in the surprise round. 4. Has no contingency.

Oddman80 wrote:

regardless of possessing metamagic rods of silence, it is doubtful the wizard is holding one in his hand at the ready - so retrieving a stowed item is an attack of opportunity.

the Wizard cannot simply dispel the silence while in it, as the spell has verbal components.

Good points here if he is caught pants down then yes this might be trouble, provided there isn't any form of back or contingency in place.

Oddman80 wrote:
If the wizard has overland flight up, then that could prevent tripping, but no trip master fighter goes into battle without also maxing out their reach: Hello pliant gloves, enlarged person, reach weapon, and a self-casting of long arm (from that level of witch you took in order to gain the spell as well as fortune and cackle - cause nothing is scarier than a maniacally laughing fighter that always seems to hit on his first try) and of course, combat reflexes.

Now you have the martial not being a martial and dipping classes for casting and SLA's supernatural abilities. Kinda moving goalpost a little and using up actions to preform those hexes and spells that cost your surprise round for anything with a short duration or LoE or LoS.

Oddman80 wrote:
Good luck getting away, when the fighter has a 90' diameter area in which he threatens

Not sure if that all stacks quite that high.


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A minor correction on the availability of Blood Money, thsre are two copies in the AP, one in a Runelord's spell book, and one in a minor artifact that could be encountered slightly earlier, but is still damn tricky to get to. Doesn't change the point that it should not be commonly known, just an inaccuracy that bugged me, carry on.

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