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A Ranger could actually work as an unarmed fighter as well, since they can take Monastic Legacy as a bonus feat at level 2 if they pick the Faithful (Irori) combat style. Sure, you don't have any way to make your damage scale beyond level 10, but you also have access to spells that will help you offset the damage loss, namely strong jaw and magic fang.
I'm a fan of unarmed slayers for a batman build. You use faithful [irori] with sap master, enforcer, and shatter defenses to add sneak attack on every hit and double your sa damage.
but it is not actually a natural attack and it is never treated as primary or secondary.
Please provide RAW supporting this position.
RAW
These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks.
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but it is not actually a natural attack and it is never treated as primary or secondary.Please provide RAW supporting this position.
RAW
These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks.
This has been gone over ad nauseum in other threads, and I'm not renewing the argument here. Let's agree to disagree and move on.
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The brawler is substantially better than the (chained) monk at unarmed combat, largely due to Martial Flexibility and full BAB. Actually, the (chained) monk isn't very good at unarmed combat at all -- that's why the umonk was invented in the first place. The original monk didn't do very well at its design goals.
Just because you can't make a good monk doesn't mean it can't be done, and certainly doesn't mean the brawler is better at it.
The Unchained monk really isn't all that great, it just allows you to pick and choose what abilities you want to gain and gives you full bab when you're not doing a full attack, but a good monk is nearly always doing a full attack anyway, so that doesn't matter.
IMHO due to the high number of attacks, and the increasing base damage, a straight Monk (even Core Monk) is easily the most potent unarmed combatant in the game. You simple have to avoid falling into the dex/wis traps. Those stats are nice to have but you need to build your monk the same way you would build any other high damage melee class, Primary stat Str, Secondary stat Con, after that Wis/Dex. Having 3-4 good stats after your rolls would make a very strong character, but even if you only get 1-2 good stats and don't bomb the other 4 you can still make a high damage monk that will be very potent with just Strength and Con.
First Max Strength, and keep putting stat increases into STR as you level Next plan your feats so you get Pummeling Style and Pummeling Charge as soon as possible (lvl 9). Once you have Pummeling Charge just try to make sure your party members understand you are likely to be charging all around the battlefield so try to stay out of your way. If you have a support member that can help keep you enlarged, or maybe a spell like strong jaw on you during combat you'll be a 1 man wrecking crew. Also your first bonus feat should be improved Grapple, at all levels Grapple should be your go-to option any time you do have to move, and are not able to full attack. If you can't full attack a successful grapple on a powerful caster or two handed weapon opponent can effectively shut them down for that round, then you put them down with a full attack on your next turn.
As for Archetypes unless you get a good enough roll to have a high wisdom score I'd recommend going Monk of the Four Winds, since that trades off your stunning fist (which will have a low DC) for straight elemental dmg that scales as you level. Also Qiggong to swap out any abilities you're not fond of for alternate options. Trading for Barkskin (to increase AC), and gaining Ki Stand (so you can stand and still full attack/pummeling charge) are two of my preferred options.
This has been gone over ad nauseum in other threads, and I'm not renewing the argument here. Let's agree to disagree and move on.but it is not actually a natural attack and it is never treated as primary or secondary.Please provide RAW supporting this position.
RAW
These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks.
Without RAW backing a statement, it is a house rule.
We all know there is no RAW allowing for a natural attack to be resolved without first categorizing it as either primary or secondary.
unarmed strikes are in fact manufactured weapons, they count as natural weapons for some purposes but are neither primary nor secondary
How some effects are resolved are dependent on natural weapon classification.
Monk IUS is treated as a natural weapon
A categorization is required by RAW in two separate instances; 1) explicitly under the natural weapons rules, which has been quoted, 2) implicitly by effects that act differently based upon classification.
If RAW can be provided demonstrating otherwise please provide it. While you are at it, also provide RAW demonstrating how to resolve unclassified natural weapons.
I've always wondered if it's possible to make a unarmed combat druid from an archetype skinshaper?
1. Unchained Monks are better than CRB Monks in every way, unless the CRB Monk takes some kickass archetypes that open a niche for them, like a Nornkith Monk, but even that only makes the CRB Monk good at that one niche.
2. Brawlers take a massive opportunity cost for being unarmed. They lose access to the natural armor enhancement slot and give up higher crit ratings for nothing in particular. Brawlers are better off with a Cestus and Outslug Style for mobility/defense/damage.
3. Unchained Monks get to be unarmed and enjoy barkskin, can go with Dragon Style without losing the ability to pounce thanks to Flying Kick, and get all sorts of cool things to compliment their build. Playing with a Rogue? Go Brazen Disciple and alpha strike all day with your buddy. Playing with a feinting Mesmerist? Go Monks of the Mantis and pile on the sucker. Frail backline constantly hit by poisons and what not? Take the Advice ki power to grant them more saves. Party needs mobility? Dimension Door it up. Party needs a caster killer? Diamond Soul it up. It's literally the best unarmed class out there, bar none. Anything else is playing catch-up.
Most people don't realize this, but Stunning Fist got better with the UC Monk since you can afford extra WIS. It's still missing some sauce (we need a Quivering Palm Adept feat for Stunning Fist that isn't that lame Stunning Fist Adept), but it's gotten better for sure.
4. Power Attack adds 1.5x damage with Dragon Ferocity for sure. Unarmed strikes are treated as natural attacks. They add full damage, so they have to be primary. Ergo they are primary attacks that add 1.5x damage, so they get the full sauce.
unarmed strikes for monks only do full damage as they are all considered main hand attacks which dont which means they dont take the -50% damage for offhand attacks
Incorrect. A Wizard making an unarmed attack also deals full damage, even without the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.
only with his main hand attack if he took twf and attacked with his off hand he would take the -50% on his off handunarmed strikes for monks only do full damage as they are all considered main hand attacks which dont which means they dont take the -50% damage for offhand attacksIncorrect. A Wizard making an unarmed attack also deals full damage, even without the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.
Yep, and that has nothing to do with the fact that unarmed attacks are primary natural attacks for Monks.
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I know it takes a while to get going, but Blood Conduit/Urban Bloodrager (celestial bloodline) 1/Mutatuion Warrior fighter X who focuses on dex is the best unarmed damage build I've come up with. Bloodrager gets you a improved unarmed strike at first level, and the ability to overcome DR/good while bloodraging, which will take a long time for monks to get. Then Mutation Warrior gets you a mutagen, the ability to fly for minutes a day (which is incredibly handy for a strictly melee build), and advanced weapon training for scaling damage on the unarmed strikes. Add in the secondary stuff like being able to use wands from the bloodrager list, and being able to get natural attacks from the mutagen, which work with two weapon fighting and the agile amulet of mighty fists you're going to get. The first couple levels are pretty rough though.
Or, you could just talk your GM into allowing the Unchained Monk. There's really no reason to have it banned other than personal preference. It's balanced with the other melee classes, but is by far the easiest way to make a melee beatstick with unarmed strikes.
exept they are not they are treated as natural attacks for certain abilities and feats but are neither primary nor secondary as they are manufactured weaponsYep, and that has nothing to do with the fact that unarmed attacks are primary natural attacks for Monks.only with his main hand attack if he took twf and attacked with his off hand he would take the -50% on his off handunarmed strikes for monks only do full damage as they are all considered main hand attacks which dont which means they dont take the -50% damage for offhand attacksIncorrect. A Wizard making an unarmed attack also deals full damage, even without the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.
All natural attacks are either primary or secondary.
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unarmed strikes are in fact manufactured weapons, they count as natural weapons for some purposes but are neither primary nor secondaryHow some effects are resolved are dependent on natural weapon classification.
Monk IUS is treated as a natural weapon
A categorization is required by RAW in two separate instances; 1) explicitly under the natural weapons rules, which has been quoted, 2) implicitly by effects that act differently based upon classification.
If RAW can be provided demonstrating otherwise please provide it. While you are at it, also provide RAW demonstrating how to resolve unclassified natural weapons.
Monk IUS is treated as a natural weapon ONLY for the purpose of effects that enhance natural weapons. A monk IUS can be made with any limb. A monk IUS can be used as an iterative attack. If you combine a monk IUS with another manufactured weapon, it does not suffer a -5 to hit and only provide half your str bonus.
This is all because a monk unarmed strike is not a natural weapon, it is only treated as one for a specific purpose.
A monk IUS is also treated as if it cold iron, silver, adamanatine, or any other special metal for the purpose of overcoming DR by virtue of ki strike. Yet when attacked by a rust monster, a monk is not damaged as a metal creature because they are not actually made of metal. It is only treated as such for a specific purpose.
Edit:
Monk US aren't natural weapons, though they are treated as such for stuff that generically boosts natural weapons.
Things that require a certain type of natural weapon don't work. Also Things that do different things based off of the weapon you use don't count as natural weapons since that isn't something enhancing the natural weapon.
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unarmed strikes are in fact manufactured weapons, they count as natural weapons for some purposes but are neither primary nor secondaryHow some effects are resolved are dependent on natural weapon classification.
Monk IUS is treated as a natural weapon
A categorization is required by RAW in two separate instances; 1) explicitly under the natural weapons rules, which has been quoted, 2) implicitly by effects that act differently based upon classification.
If RAW can be provided demonstrating otherwise please provide it. While you are at it, also provide RAW demonstrating how to resolve unclassified natural weapons.
Monk IUS is treated as a natural weapon ONLY for the purpose of effects that enhance natural weapons. A monk IUS can be made with any limb. A monk IUS can be used as an iterative attack. If you combine a monk IUS with another manufactured weapon, it does not suffer a -5 to hit and only provide half your str bonus.
This is all because a monk unarmed strike is not a natural weapon, it is only treated as one for a specific purpose.
A monk IUS is also treated as if it cold iron, silver, adamanatine, or any other special metal for the purpose of overcoming DR by virtue of ki strike. Yet when attacked by a rust monster, a monk is not damaged as a metal creature because they are not actually made of metal. It is only treated as such for a specific purpose.
Edit:
if it is unclassified common sense dictates that it is neither, just like how if a particular bonus is unclassified it is an untyped bonusunarmed strikes are in fact manufactured weapons, they count as natural weapons for some purposes but are neither primary nor secondaryHow some effects are resolved are dependent on natural weapon classification.
Monk IUS is treated as a natural weapon
A categorization is required by RAW in two separate instances; 1) explicitly under the natural weapons rules, which has been quoted, 2) implicitly by effects that act differently based upon classification.
If RAW can be provided demonstrating otherwise please provide it. While you are at it, also provide RAW demonstrating how to resolve unclassified natural weapons.
Quoted RAW states it must be one or the other. There is no unclassified or untyped option for natural weapons.
Once again, if you have RAW backing your position, please provide it.
exept they are not they are treated as natural attacks for certain abilities and feats but are neither primary nor secondary as they are manufactured weapons
Except for when they are natural weapons, i.e. whenever it is beneficial for the monk.
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Identical wording for manufactured and natural. Neither is given precedence.
Also Things that do different things based off of the weapon you use don't count as natural weapons since that isn't something enhancing the natural weapon.
Please provide RAW backing this statement.
exept they are not they are treated as natural attacks for certain abilities and feats but are neither primary nor secondary as they are manufactured weaponsExcept for when they are natural weapons, i.e. whenever it is beneficial for the monk.
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.Identical wording for manufactured and natural. Neither is given precedence.
Also Things that do different things based off of the weapon you use don't count as natural weapons since that isn't something enhancing the natural weapon.Please provide RAW backing this statement.
Power Attack enhances the damage, not the weapon.
Power Attack (Combat)
You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
Power Attack enhances the damage, not the weapon.
or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon
Dmg: These columns give the damage dealt by the weapon on a successful hit.
- Damage is a quality of the weapon, with it's own line entry on weapon stat blocks. Power Attack modifies this damage.
- Power Attack modifies weapon damage, how is dependent on the weapon used.
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Monk IUS is treated as a Natural weapon.
These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks.
All natural attacks are either Primary or Secondary. There is no option for untyped or uncategorized.
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guys, there's no point in this debate. like 90% of people view things one way and then like 10% or less view things the other way. And neither side will accept any current text as proving them wrong. We've had this debate about a dozen times since dragon style was changed. So far the closest thing to an answer is Mark VERY unofficially stating that the monks US aren't primary natural weapons. The best thing would be to try and get a FAQ going for this, cause there's no point in continuing this tennis match.
Specific trumps general, though. A Natural Weapon that specified that it is neither Primary nor Secondary is, in fact neither.
Agreed, but we have no such specific text and, if we did, an uncategorized natural weapon would have no rules allowing for application of any strength bonus or allowing Power Attack to modify the damage in any way.
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It means that anything that says, "this works for primary/secondary" don't work for it, but anything that says, "this works for natural attacks" does. Since it's NOT a natural attack you never attack with a natural attack that isn't primary or secondary, cause it's an US.
guys, there's no point in this debate. like 90% of people view things one way and then like 10% or less view things the other way. And neither side will accept any current text as proving them wrong. We've had this debate about a dozen times since dragon style was changed. So far the closest thing to an answer is Mark VERY unofficially stating that the monks US aren't primary natural weapons. The best thing would be to try and get a FAQ going for this, cause there's no point in continuing this tennis match.made one in the rules forums if you wana check it off aswell
To the question, "Where Monk Unarmed Strikes are treated as Natural Weapons, are they primary or secondary?"
See and this is COMPLETELY missing the point and reading into stuff that isn't there. THEY AREN'T treated as either primary or secondary. They COUNT as natural attacks for stuff that says "this works for natural attacks"
They aren't, don't count as primary or secondary natural attacks since they aren't natural attacks.Similar to treating them as manufactured weapons. Manufactured weapons were made by someone. We don't need to figure out "when counting as manufactured weapons the question is figuring how who manufactured them?" See how stupid that is? No one manufactured them, thus if something said, "this only works for weapons made by X or made in Y country" then the IUS don't counts cause they weren't made anywhere nor by anyone.
Same with the natural attack part. Things like strongjaw and magic fang that works for any natural attack works for monks. Things that only work for a certain type of natural attack (primary/secondary) don't work since monks US aren't either.
Didn't we have an Unarmed Strike Primary/Secondary Dragon Ferocity kerfuffle in the rules forum like 4 months ago? Are we just revisiting that here or did I hallucinate that?
Didn't we have an Unarmed Strike Primary/Secondary Dragon Ferocity kerfuffle in the rules forum like 4 months ago? Are we just revisiting that here or did I hallucinate that?
there are like three people that adamantly keep their view that it works, but they also offer it as advice all the time, then people say it doesn't work and thread derailed!
Didn't we have an Unarmed Strike Primary/Secondary Dragon Ferocity kerfuffle in the rules forum like 4 months ago? Are we just revisiting that here or did I hallucinate that?
Nature abhors a vaccum. As the number of caster-martial disparity (CMD) threads has dwindled, something else has to take up that space, or else the internet crashes and the world descends into a(nother) Dark Age. You've found nature's substitute for CMD threads. That's all.