Sniping require a movement action to hide again?


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

4 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Reading the stealth rules for another thread I noticed something strange:

PRD wrote:


Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.

....

Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

Reading the Sniping rules alone I was under the impression that Sniping allowed you to hide as part of the Standard attack action you used to make your ranged attack.

That was the reason for the -20 to the stealth check (with the added benefit of maintaining your location obscured).
That way you can use sniping during a surprise round, BTW.

As I read the rules, if you attack from stealth and move to another concealed position, you can use stealth without penalties. The drawback is that your initial location and your movement in not concealing terrain are revealed, so the enemy has a rough idea of your position.

But the bolded part of the Action section of stealth seem to imply that you need a move action to hide again when making a sniping attack.
That would make sniping impossible in a surprise round (unless you can make a ranged attack as a swift action) and very action intensive.

Any idea if there is some Dev comment about that?

FAQed, for the list"stealth has a lot of problems".

Sovereign Court

Hmm, that does raise problems in surprise rounds. Unless you want to invest in feats that allow you full actions in a surprise round (Lookout teamwork feat with a valet familiar for example).

Liberty's Edge

That is why I made this thread. I was hoping for some FAQ hit.

Liberty's Edge

So, no one has any doubt on how it work?


It has always required a move action to hide again. The idea is that you get your one attack, but to stay hidden you must use your move action immediately aftewards to hide again.

If you do this without sniping your position is automatically given away since attacking gives your location. The price of your location not being given away is the move action. Personally I would have made it a -10 instead of 20.

Sniping is basically a special thing for archers(anyone using ranged attacks) that allows them to stay hidden, but they didn't want to make it too good so they kept the penalty at -20 and added the move action cost. The wording has not changed in the past 17 years with how it works.

edit:

CRB/PRD wrote:


"Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action."

Liberty's Edge

wraithstrike wrote:

It has always required a move action to hide again. The idea is that you get your one attack, but to stay hidden you must use your move action immediately aftewards to hide again.

If you do this without sniping your position is automatically given away since attacking gives your location. The price of your location not being given away is the move action. Personally I would have made it a -10 instead of 20.

Sniping is basically a special thing for archers(anyone using ranged attacks) that allows them to stay hidden, but they didn't want to make it too good so they kept the penalty at -20 and added the move action cost. The wording has not changed in the past 17 years with how it works.

edit:

CRB/PRD wrote:


"Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action."

So, no sniping in the surprise round?

It seem counter intuitive.

And why the penalty? If I fire an arrow, move behind a row of bushes and use stealth, I can hide without any penalty, and if there are enough bushes my position is again unknown.

Liberty's Edge

Take [url=http://www.archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Master%20Sniper]Master sniper[/urk] into account:

Master sniper wrote:


Master Sniper (Combat)
Source Dirty Tactics Toolbox pg. 11
Your sniping is quick enough that you can fire a small volley unnoticed.

Prerequisites: Expert Sniper, Rapid Shot, Stealth 6 ranks.

Benefit: While hiding, you can make two ranged attacks at your highest attack bonus as a full-round action and then immediately use Stealth again. You take the normal penalties on your Stealth check to remain hidden. Effects that modify sniping apply to this full-round action. These attack rolls take a –2 penalty.

Normal: You can fire only once when sniping.

So the "normal" requirement to use sniping is standard action attack+move action, this feat give you the equivalent of 3 actions: full attack (limited, but still a full attack) + move.

If hiding after sniping is part of the attack action, it don't give extra actions.


Diego Rossi wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

It has always required a move action to hide again. The idea is that you get your one attack, but to stay hidden you must use your move action immediately aftewards to hide again.

If you do this without sniping your position is automatically given away since attacking gives your location. The price of your location not being given away is the move action. Personally I would have made it a -10 instead of 20.

Sniping is basically a special thing for archers(anyone using ranged attacks) that allows them to stay hidden, but they didn't want to make it too good so they kept the penalty at -20 and added the move action cost. The wording has not changed in the past 17 years with how it works.

edit:

CRB/PRD wrote:


"Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action."

So, no sniping in the surprise round?

It seem counter intuitive.

And why the penalty? If I fire an arrow, move behind a row of bushes and use stealth, I can hide without any penalty, and if there are enough bushes my position is again unknown.

The penalty is because when you attack from stealth your position is normally automatically given away. With sniping you have a chance to not be seen even though a -20 makes it a small chance, but that is better than a 0% chance.


Diego Rossi wrote:

Take [url=http://www.archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Master%20Sniper]Master sniper[/urk] into account:

Master sniper wrote:


Master Sniper (Combat)
Source Dirty Tactics Toolbox pg. 11
Your sniping is quick enough that you can fire a small volley unnoticed.

Prerequisites: Expert Sniper, Rapid Shot, Stealth 6 ranks.

Benefit: While hiding, you can make two ranged attacks at your highest attack bonus as a full-round action and then immediately use Stealth again. You take the normal penalties on your Stealth check to remain hidden. Effects that modify sniping apply to this full-round action. These attack rolls take a –2 penalty.

Normal: You can fire only once when sniping.

So the "normal" requirement to use sniping is standard action attack+move action, this feat give you the equivalent of 3 actions: full attack (limited, but still a full attack) + move.

If hiding after sniping is part of the attack action, it don't give extra actions.

It is stated in two places that a move action is needed to hide. The intent is definitely there.

This new ability does mean the old rules do not apply. They have have written the "normal" clause as "You can fire only once when sniping, and it takes a move action to hide".

The benefit section should have added "you do not need a move action to hide again.".

Them not being more specific doesn't change what the rules are.

Another thing is that many of the rules are written by freelancers, and they may have also thought that it was a standard action to do both, and the PDT assumed everyone know the rule so didnt think to make it more in-depth.

It won't be the first time a feat made it past editing without being worded properly.

The pre-errata versions of Elephant Stomp and Prone Shooter prove that things get by editing.

You can FAQ Master Sniper. I am 100% sure they will just give you the move action for free when they errata it.

If you want to change the current rule about sniping costing a move action I would create a thread asking people should it be changed, and then get arguments as to why it should be changed. Maybe with the community behind you it can happen. I don't know if it will work but that is probably the best way to get an actual rule change.

edit: I just realized that earlier I bolded the same rule that you had already presented. Sorry about that.

Now I understand why this is an ongoing question, but wouldn't Paizo have changed the wording from 3.5 if they wanted different results or are you just pushing for a rules change?

3.5 wrote:

Action

Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

As you can see nothing has really changed.


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Yeah, the advantage is being able to stay hidden in (presumably) an ideal spot for sniping. While the -20 is harsh, chances are you have some pretty good distance modifiers to the perception DC that you can tack on. Moving behind bushes won't let you stealth unless they provided total cover or total concealment as you're still under observation once you break stealth.

So yeah, no sniping during the surprise round. Now, let's say the ambushers get a surprise round and choose to do nothing. Since they haven't attacked, does the party know it's being attacked? Does the next round count as a full round? Or is every round a 'surprise' round until the attackers actually attack or the party notices the ambush?

Grand Lodge

Diego Rossi wrote:

Take [url=http://www.archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Master%20Sniper]Master sniper[/urk] into account:

Master sniper wrote:


Master Sniper (Combat)
Source Dirty Tactics Toolbox pg. 11
Your sniping is quick enough that you can fire a small volley unnoticed.

Prerequisites: Expert Sniper, Rapid Shot, Stealth 6 ranks.

Benefit: While hiding, you can make two ranged attacks at your highest attack bonus as a full-round action and then immediately use Stealth again. You take the normal penalties on your Stealth check to remain hidden. Effects that modify sniping apply to this full-round action. These attack rolls take a –2 penalty.

Normal: You can fire only once when sniping.

So the "normal" requirement to use sniping is standard action attack+move action, this feat give you the equivalent of 3 actions: full attack (limited, but still a full attack) + move.

If hiding after sniping is part of the attack action, it don't give extra actions.

You cannot full attack while sniping...you get a single, standard attack action, then you use your move action to duck back behind your cover...not to actually move behind new cover.

Master sniper allows you to get a second shot off with -2 on both, while still taking the -10 (because of Expert Sniper) on your stealth to stay hidden. The wording is a bit wonky, it basically changes it from standard attack+move to hide into just a full attack with the hide built in.


Another question, though maybe this is a more general stealth/perception question...

Attacker A snipes from stealth, hits player B, and makes a -20 stealth roll to remain hidden.

Player B and C make a perception check to see of they can pinpoint Attacker A's location. Player B fails, Player C succeeds, so he pinpoints the attacker.

Player C can tell B where the attacker is, so B now knows what square the attacker is in. Does B get another perception check? Is it an active check (takes a move action)? Is it still against the -20 stealth roll? Is there any bonus because you 'know where to look'?


_Ozy_ wrote:

Another question, though maybe this is a more general stealth/perception question...

Attacker A snipes from stealth, hits player B, and makes a -20 stealth roll to remain hidden.

Player B and C make a perception check to see of they can pinpoint Attacker A's location. Player B fails, Player C succeeds, so he pinpoints the attacker.

Player C can tell B where the attacker is, so B now knows what square the attacker is in. Does B get another perception check? Is it an active check (takes a move action)? Is it still against the -20 stealth roll? Is there any bonus because you 'know where to look'?

You automatically get a free perception check against opponents who are hiding.

If you want an additional perception check you must spend a move action on your turn. Another creature saying "he is over there" does not grant a free check.

Also, there is no bonus unless the GM has a house rule he wants to use.


_Ozy_ wrote:

Another question, though maybe this is a more general stealth/perception question...

Attacker A snipes from stealth, hits player B, and makes a -20 stealth roll to remain hidden.

Player B and C make a perception check to see of they can pinpoint Attacker A's location. Player B fails, Player C succeeds, so he pinpoints the attacker.

Player C can tell B where the attacker is, so B now knows what square the attacker is in. Does B get another perception check? Is it an active check (takes a move action)? Is it still against the -20 stealth roll? Is there any bonus because you 'know where to look'?

the stealth check is an oppsoed check. if when the sniper did his stealth check no1 got high enough perception to see him, then his attack didn't break stealth. if player c while not being attacked see him then the sniper eventuly never maintained his stealth against him. (just traat it as any stealth check that some score enough in the perception to notice and some didn't). telling the player b where the sniper is hiding will only let him attack that area (so he can know where to range and get a 50% hit chance to attacking something he can't see), the nsiper can still snipe anyone who doesn't see him.

while the opposed perception check against stealth is a free action one can still take a stnadard action to make a new perception on his turn. that would be agains the snipre's stealth check with his panilty (he dosn't re-roll you use his last roll) since he did try to hide in a hurry and might messed up some things.

Liberty's Edge

The idea that you can't snipe in the surprise round seem very strange. If sniping require to use a move action to hide after the attack, for ranged attackers setting up an ambush is a failure.

The rules effectively seem to say that, so my group has always played it wrong, reading the sniping rule as a single action encompassing both the attack and the attempt to hide.


What many people would call "strange," the Paizo Devs would call "Working as intended."

It's easier to cope with the factor that Sniping, as a tactic, is a horrible idea, both due to the horrible action economy it possesses, and also due to its failure to scale to lategame standards (most enemies take multiple attacks to kill past 3rd level, and as the levels increase, more and more attacks are required).

Do I wish there was more supplementary tactics to Sniping? Absolutely. Do I expect Paizo to give a damn about those supplementary tactics? Not particularly, especially when they've already apparently released plenty of options to "boost" Sniping from "horrible" to be more in-line with the Vital Strike feat chain, which is still poorly executed without the help of Mythic Rules.


Diego Rossi wrote:

The idea that you can't snipe in the surprise round seem very strange. If sniping require to use a move action to hide after the attack, for ranged attackers setting up an ambush is a failure.

The rules effectively seem to say that, so my group has always played it wrong, reading the sniping rule as a single action encompassing both the attack and the attempt to hide.

My guess is that not being able to snipe in a surprise round is an unintended consequence. The move action requirement to use the sniping option under the stealth skill is almost certainly intended to make sure the sniper only takes 1 shot per round rather than get a full attack. You don't really need to worry about that issue in a surprise round so I'd recommend ignoring the requirement to take a move action in those circumstances and allow a surprise sniper to make that stealth check.


Get a high initiative, snipe in the surprise round, snipe again, and then hide? Most ranged characters will have a high dexterity, and improved initiative can help with that.


There's a Rogue Talent I've been wanting to try is False Attacker, which lets you make a Bluff check as an Immediate Action to convince your victim that the attack came from somewhere else, meaning that you don't break Stealth.


Diego Rossi wrote:

The idea that you can't snipe in the surprise round seem very strange. If sniping require to use a move action to hide after the attack, for ranged attackers setting up an ambush is a failure.

The rules effectively seem to say that, so my group has always played it wrong, reading the sniping rule as a single action encompassing both the attack and the attempt to hide.

In general, the 'single move/standard action' mechanics of the surprise round is a hack that doesn't play well with various aspects of the game.

Liberty's Edge

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RealAlchemy wrote:
Get a high initiative, snipe in the surprise round, snipe again, and then hide? Most ranged characters will have a high dexterity, and improved initiative can help with that.

The first time you attack without hiding you give away your position.

The advantage of sniping it that you don't do that. Your position is still unknown if you snipe.

You can always fire an arrow, move to a new concealed position and use stealth again, without the -20 penalty. But all your opponents know the square from which you fired, and see you starting to move.
That allow people to attack your probable location with area effect spells and to move toward it.

It is the difference between: "The arrow came from our left" and "The arrow came from that bush with the yellow flowers on our left".

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