Improving my witches hex DC


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


my witch is LVL 7 and has a 20 in int. that means my DC for my hexes is 18. Is there a way to improve that with feats? I have the evil eye, misfortune, and slumber. I can never get misfortune to go off.


Ask your GM if he will allow monster feats. Ability focus increases the DC of one ot your hexes by 2.

Aside from that, increasing your intelligence to the max is the way to go.

If you cannot afford a headband use Threefold Aspect to get a cool +4 to both INT and WIS.

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Ask your GM if he will allow 3.5 feats. Tome of Magic has Sudden Ability Focus, which gives you a +2 to a any special ability you have once per day. So you can use it for a different Hex each day, and you can take it multiple times, so you can use it multiple times.

EDIT:

Have you tried Evil Eye on Saving Throws before trying Misfortune?


yes, I have smilodan. and I don't think my gm would allow monster feats or 3.5 feats. And low magic items are the name if the game so no fancy headbands.hell, I can't even get mundane items so I can make special looking stuff for my pc.


Threefold Aspect then. At the time I got that spell I wanted to get more spells for my familiar and to help some of my party to gear themselves so I decided not to buy a headband. I really thought that giving up one of my level 4 spells for getting +2 for the DC of all my spells and hexes, plus +2 to will saves was really worth it.

If you are using many features that allow a saving throw and cannot have a headband, Threefold Aspect is just great.

You will also have a -2 to Dex but I didn't think it made a big difference.


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At 9th level, take Quicken Spell and use it with Ill Omen (which has no Save, and is on your spell list), and then hit the target with Evil Eye (Saves) and Misfortune before they can take the Move Action needed to get rid of Ill Omen. Use Cackle to extend Evil Eye and Misfortune so that whichever is first makes it easier for the other to stick.

Since you cannot get Intelligence-boosting headbands, which work by giving you an Enhancement Bonus, use Enhancement Bonus spells like Threefold Aspect (see Kileanna's post above) or Fox's Cunning to boost your Intelligence. Fox's Cunning is not on your spell list (not even on a Patron spell list), so you will need a friendly spellcaster (usually Arcanist, Bard, Sorcerer, or Wizard) who has it, or if you can get a Wand of it, use that (requires investment in Use Magic Device). Alternatively, if you can fit in Craft Wondrous Item, you could make your own Intelligence-boosting headband.


At level 17 I've been quickening Ill Omen for some time and I can say it works great. As it increases the number of rerolls it forces the move action to get rid of one of them is less important.


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Considering that your DC already isn't particulary low (imo 17-19 is the typical range for your level), you always failing, even when using Evil Eye, seems... suspicious...

I had once a GM which had monsters always make every save against anything not direct damage, because he "didn't like debuffs". Maybe carefully explore wether something similar is going on in this case.


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thank you guys


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Kileanna wrote:
At level 17 I've been quickening Ill Omen for some time and I can say it works great. As it increases the number of rerolls it forces the move action to get rid of one of them is less important.

In addition, Spellcraft is a trained only skill, so many creatures might be unable to work out how to overcome the spell. They need to actually know what spell you cast and it's effects to be granted the option of the move action, which makes it REALLY good to throw out.

That said, Misfortune is tricky to get off depending on which creatures you're facing, but a combination of Evil Eye into Misfortune is usually pretty strong even against creatures with Good Will Saves against those DC's. It is a bit suspicious. What creatures are you facing, OP?


I didn't mention that many creatures shouldn't know how to overcome Ill Omen as it depends a lot on how the GM plays enemies in a logical way. With a metagamey GM you can expect to have enemies overcoming it kinda often.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Ability focus (hex name). Adds +2 to a specific hex. I'm surprised this wasn't mentioned yet.


Kileanna wrote:
Ask your GM if he will allow monster feats. Ability focus increases the DC of one ot your hexes by 2.

I did.

First answer xD

OP said his GM wouldn't probably allow monster feats.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Ah, yes, apologies. I did not see that!

EDIT: I never noticed that it was a monster feat, either!


I've always found in unusual you couldn't take a Hex Focus feat acting like Spell Focus. It doesn't seem like it would be particularly out of line, power wise, with a +1 DC to a specific school.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Exactly. There should be a greater focus, too.

Frankly, if I want to increase a monster's DC, I'll just increase his relevant stat. Or just add to the # when I'm telling my players the DC.

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Is there a way to de-buff the relevant saving throws? Like ability damage, drain, or penalty? Poison might work, but first you have to break through a Fortitude saving throw.


SmiloDan wrote:
Is there a way to de-buff the relevant saving throws? Like ability damage, drain, or penalty? Poison might work, but first you have to break through a Fortitude saving throw.

Having played with a debuffer witch I must say I have mixed feelings towards that strategy because of action economy. Being able to do it on a single turn (via quickened effects i.e.) is the optimal thing here. Taking two rounds on doing it sometimes means that you have delayed on doing something to a round too late.

I'm not saying it's not useful, you just need to be clever to know when to debuff and when not, and I've seen too many people that obsess with stacking debuffs and never have the time to make profit of said debuffs to make something that really makes a difference.

To me, the optimal is making team strategies so one party member debuffs and other/s take advantage of it on the same round. I've had the luck to have the kind of groups who enjoy teamplay and we get a great effectively making combo between different party members.

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I always want to play teamwork-based characters, but the groups I tend to play in are more "mob of individuals" than "organized team" players.

:-P

Occasionally, I can get the divination wizard to reserve a low Portents roll for the saving throw against my cleric's big bang spell. But he has bigger bangier spells, usually.


It's hard to find people who is willing to do that, but when you do it's awesome. Most of my players are individualists, but I had the luck to find some new additions to my roleplaying group who are willing to colaborate. We even plan leveling up together so we can pick options that allow us to colaborate, like one picks an option to lower saves and the other picks a save or suck spell that will probably only land with some debuffing while another keeps focusing on intimidate for an extra -2 to saves. And you get a save or suck spell that doesn't suck at all xD

With my witch I used Evil Eye to lower AC a lot of times. Combats were quick and we had a TWF and a an archer who attacked like a hundred times each turn. So it made the difference between succeeding half their attacks or most of them. They had more fun like that than if I just slumber hexed two enemies per turn and let them do their part by themselves. And each time the GM said "you hit the enemy because of the lowered AC" I was happy to be helping.

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Yeah, my 5th Ed cleric uses a lot of bless because we have 4 martials and a blaster. +1d4 is really helpful to attack rolls AND saving throws!


Kileanna wrote:
Kileanna wrote:
Ask your GM if he will allow monster feats. Ability focus increases the DC of one of your hexes by 2.

I did.

First answer xD

OP said his GM wouldn't probably allow monster feats.

well PC's are not monsters even if they are because they are player controlled

Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
What creatures are you facing, OP?

some sort of mantis magical creature(it was immune and reflected my hex back at my PC)I don't know what it was but it was in one of the many monster books for Pathfinder or D&D, hyenadons (megafauna), wererats and humans I think. oh and cockatrices.

good one to know taks.
Kileanna
focusing on intimidate for an extra -2 to saves. where is this info?

I use the Evil Eye to lower their save stats. maybe I should hit their armor because the wizard never uses suggested spells anyways. he might throw a tizzy about that but it's better to help more people than just him and try not getting my own combo off.

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You can use Intimidate to demoralize an opponent, granting them the shaken condition, which penalizes saves.

Right?


So long as they're not immune to fear.

Using Intimidate to demoralize, especially later on when Dazzling Display and/or certain rage powers come online, can be deliciously efficacious.

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The Mad Comrade wrote:

So long as they're not immune to fear.

Using Intimidate to demoralize, especially later on when Dazzling Display and/or certain rage powers come online, can be deliciously efficacious.

Sounds like a breakfast cereal commercial! :-D


The Mad Comrade wrote:

So long as they're not immune to fear.

Using Intimidate to demoralize, especially later on when Dazzling Display and/or certain rage powers come online, can be deliciously efficacious.

With Signature Skill or Rogue's Edge, it becomes a Save or Lose, even better with Dazzling Display.


zainale wrote:

well PC's are not monsters even if they are because they are player controlled

The feat never mentions being a monster as a prerequisite, even if they appear as feats for monsters, so allowing them or not really depends on your GM. Both allowing or not are valid options.

Quote:
focusing on intimidate for an extra -2 to saves. where is this info?

What SmiloDan said. I am posting the mechanics here anyway:

Intimidate wrote:

Demoralize Opponent

You can use this skill to cause an opponent to become shaken for a number of rounds. This shaken condition doesn’t stack with other shaken conditions to make an affected creature frightened. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target’s Hit Dice + the target’s Wisdom modifier.

Success: If you are successful, the target is shaken for one round. This duration increases by 1 round for every 5 by which you beat the DC. You can only threaten an opponent this way if it is within 30 feet and can clearly see and hear you. Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition.

Conditions wrote:

Shaken

A shaken character takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. Shaken is a less severe state of fear than frightened or panicked.

As a Standard action, demoralizing an opponent is hardly a good thing to do in combat, but there are ways (as the aforementionated Dazzling Display) to make demoralizing easier and more attractive.

Dazzling Display wrote:


Prerequisite: Weapon Focus, proficiency with the selected weapon.

Benefit: While wielding the weapon in which you have Weapon Focus, you can perform a bewildering show of prowess as a full-round action. Make an Intimidate check to demoralize all foes within 30 feet who can see your display.

There are other good options for an Intimidate focused character, as Enforcer feat, some rage powers, Cruelties, etc. But they work better for melee characters. They are not options for a witch but options to make combinated strategies between members of the party. In our case, the Antipaladin benefits from his own Intimidate to get extra attacks but also benefits the Witch to get her SoS to land more easily.

Quote:
I use the Evil Eye to lower their save stats. maybe I should hit their armor because the wizard never uses suggested spells anyways. he might throw a tizzy about that but it's better to help more people than just him and try not getting my own combo off.

Choosing the right option to target with Evil Eye depends on the composition of the group and the situation, so I cannot tell what would be more useful. If noone is benefitting from you lowering their saves you definitely should using different strategies, but that's where analizing the battle comes to play. Only you can tell what would be better.

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I made a half-elf paladin with the Bully trait (or whatever gives you Intimidate as a class skill) and Skill Focus Intimidate, that did two-weapon fighting with warhammer and shield, had the Bludgeoner and Enforcer feats, plus Shield Focus, etc. Very, very feat intensive, but effective at getting lots of intimidate checks, which made my targets Demoralized/Shaken.

I was also trying to be a combination of Thor, Captain America, and Iron Man.... :-P


Cool!!! (Autocorrect wanted me to type Fool, which wasn't the word I meant to use at all!!!)

I cannot remember exactly which are the feats for the Antipaladin I mentioned (it's Dalindra's character, not mine) but I'll look them up later. He is very effective, as he has options to use a Command spell for free each time he demoralizes and he also gets an additional attack.

He went that way because we had an archery rogue who would have a hard time getting to sneak attack so the rogue went for Shatter Defenses and the Antipaladin had Dazzling Display and a lot of intimidate options.
The rogue never used his own Dazzling Display, relaying on the Antipaladin to provide him with sneak attacks.

It was rather cool.

Now I had to stop GMing on group but I keep GMing for Dalindra on solo to end the campaign. And it is the Witch who benefits from it.


The Antipaladin I mentioned:

Tyrant Lord of Darkness Antipaladin. Level 11 at this time.
Lord of Darkness is a 3pp archetype from Way of the Wicked.
He replaces Aura of Cowardice for Aura of Obedience which grants a +4 to Intimidate and allows to use Command as as a free action if he demoralizes an opponent by 10 or more on his check.

Skills: Maxed intimidate, always.

Feats:
Power Attack
Hurtful for an extra attack as a swift action
Cornugon Smash for intimidating as a free action when he Power Attacks
Intimidating Prowess for a bonus on Intimidate

He combines his aura of Despair for a -2 to saving throws for all opponents near him with demoralizing for an additional -2 to most checks.

For enemies with fear immunity he uses Draconic Malice as a spell, as he doesn't have the aura that removes fear immunity that other Antipaladins have.

If he needs to Intimidate many enemies he has picked Unsanctioned Knowledge (technically it's for Paladins but I allowed it as I thought it made sense) to have access to spells from other lists and he has learned Blistering Invective.

So the result: He can get a -4 to all saves to benefit himself (for Command and his cruelties, he usually uses Cursed, next level he'll go for Paralyzed), the Witch also gets benefit from it for her SoS so she rarely does the debuffing herself, and the rogue uses his sneak attack thanks to Shatter Defenses. So they make a great combo.

In definitive I like how his build works as it is pretty solid. He deals good damage and has some neat options with Intimidate. And all the group benefits from them one way or another.

Oblivious silly Kileanna wrote:
Antipaladin had Dazzling Display and a lot of intimidate options.

I said this on a previous post. It was a mistake. He doesn't have that feat.

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