Magni Alfsson |
So I'm gearing up for a campaign and I decided to play a fighter. I love fighters. but I always have a bit of trouble getting my feat progression set up and wind up retraining because I've missed something.
I'm trying to make this fighter after a viking, specifically Bjorn Ironside(Bjorn Jarnsida) from history(and from the tv show vikings). I'm trying to focus on twf(sword+shield/sword+axe) and on intimidation
here's what I've got
My DM is allowing me to take the Racial Heritage feat and I'm going stone giant. So as it stands...
Bjorn Jarnsida
Fighter 1
STR 18, Dex 17, Con 16(+2), Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 12 (stat array given)
Feats: Racial Heritage: stone giant (Human)
Stone Soul(1st level)
Power attack(FBF 1)
any help with feat progression from here on is super appreciated.
GM_Beernorg |
The feats I would absolutely want:
Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Two Weapon Rend
Intimidating Prowess
Double Slice
Improved Shield Bash
Weapon Focus (needed for the bellow)
Dazzling Display
Gory Finish
The Feats I would Like but don't have to have
Shield Focus
Shield Mastery
Missile Shield
Weapon Specialization
Lunge
Combat Reflexes
Stumbling Bash
Greater Weapon Focus
Great Weapon Specialization
Martial Dominance
Shatter Defenses
And that is 20 feats, hope some of those help.
Louise Bishop |
The feats I would absolutely want:
Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Two Weapon Rend
Intimidating Prowess
Double Slice
Improved Shield Bash
Weapon Focus (needed for the bellow)
Dazzling Display
Gory FinishThe Feats I would Like but don't have to have
Shield Focus
Shield Mastery
Missile Shield
Weapon Specialization
Lunge
Combat Reflexes
Stumbling Bash
Greater Weapon Focus
Great Weapon Specialization
Martial Dominance
Shatter DefensesAnd that is 20 feats, hope some of those help.
Wow not quiet....
First GTWF is a TRAP feat. Not worth it. Two weapon fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and Two weapon rend is the main Damage feats.
2nd Dazzling Display is a waste of action economy. A fighter's role is that of ending the fight. Wasting an entire round to demoralize is Terrible. If you go intimidate You should grab C. Smash as a free action intimidate when you land a Power attack. Paired with a Cruel weapon you can give a target -4 to most rolls (saves included).
But if you include Sword and Shield you will need:
Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Slam, Bashing Finish.
Double Slice will be needed for two weapon rend pre-req.
I like Improved critical on a 15-20 weapon to proc Bashing Finish as much as possible. I tend to roll with a Scimitar as it is one of the best weapons in the game.
If you want a TWF specialist another Class to look at is Either Slayer or Ranger as they can skip Pre-reqs with the Ranger style feats. Also they receive both Shield Slam and Shield Mastery Long before a fighter can qualify for. Which is really good as they are some of the better Sword and Board feats.
Louise Bishop |
Thanks. Though on the intimidation side of things why not cornugon smash?
That is what I mean when I said C. Smash.
2nd Dazzling Display is a waste of action economy. A fighter's role is that of ending the fight. Wasting an entire round to demoralize is Terrible. If you go intimidate You should grab C. Smash as a free action intimidate when you land a Power attack. Paired with a Cruel weapon you can give a target -4 to most rolls (saves included).
Magni Alfsson |
Magni Alfsson wrote:Thanks. Though on the intimidation side of things why not cornugon smash?That is what I mean when I said C. Smash.
self wrote:2nd Dazzling Display is a waste of action economy. A fighter's role is that of ending the fight. Wasting an entire round to demoralize is Terrible. If you go intimidate You should grab C. Smash as a free action intimidate when you land a Power attack. Paired with a Cruel weapon you can give a target -4 to most rolls (saves included).
Ah, haha, sorry I must've hit the wrong button, thought I was responding to beernog
Louise Bishop |
C. Smash needs a spiked chain, which was not mentioned in your first post as a weapon you planned on.
@ Louise, opinions vary, I tried to suggest feats without magic items in mind, and based on sword/shield sword/axe as the OP noted, but I will never say my suggestions are the only suggestions or what others consider the absolute best suggestions.
C. Smash does NOT need a Spiked chain.
And yes opinions Vary but GTWF is known to be a trap by a majority of the community here. Thus making it the popular opinion.
Scott Wilhelm |
Dazzling Display is a waste of action economy.
He wants to take Shatter Defenses, though. Dazzling Display is a prerequisite.
I can't declare that you're wrong about it being a waste, though. The reason I would take Shatter Defenses is if I were making a Sneak Attack build doing nonlethal damage with Blunt Weapons taking Sap Feats to double the SAD. Beernog is doing none of that.
I'm trying to focus on... intimidation
Still, the OP wants to use Intimidate, and Dazzling Display lets you Intimidate a whole mess of people all at once. That's pretty cool.
I recall that in 1 episode of the show, Bjorn fought with Axe and Dagger. Perhaps Quickdraw and some throwing feats might be in order?
I'm trying to focus on twf(sword+shield/sword+axe)
If I were using a Shield, I'd strongly consider shield bashing. Take Shield Slam and get a free Bull Rush with every Shield Bash. Take Greater Bull Rush, and all your allies get Attacks of Opportunity with your Bull Rush. Take Paired Opportunist via a 1 level dip in Cavalier or a 3 level dip in Inquisitor, and you get an AoO, too. For Shield Slam, I'd get that via a 2 level dip in Ranger. I like the Freebooter Archetype. Freebooter is a maritime Ranger, and that is in keeping with the Viking theme. With a 3rd level in Ranger, he'd get Endurance, and could sleep in Medium Armor, also perhaps not inappropriate. Take Spiked Destroyer, and get a Swift Action Armor Spike attack when you Bull Rush.
How would you feel about the Phalanx Soldier Fighter Archetype? Vikings fought in tight infantry formations, so that is not inappropriate. The reason why I asked is that the level 3 class ability for that is the ability to fight with a pole arm in 1 hand and a shield in the other. So then you could fight with Halberd and Shield, do 1d10 instead of 1d8 with the Battle Axe. Vikings are not known as halbardiers, though they did use that 2 handed axe. Another possibility would be if your Racial Heritage were Dwarf, and use Dwarven War Axe, maybe take that Dwarf Feat that gives you Tremorsense, and also take Blindfighting. If you went with the dip in Ranger like I suggested, you might acquire a Wand of Lead Blades, making your Dwarven War Axe or your Halberd do 2d8 instead of 1d10, or make your Battle Axe do 2d6.
If you fought with Spiked Shield and Halberd, then Hamatula Strike would be a logical choice. With a Free Grapple with every hit with a Piercing Weapon, and Armor Spike Damage with every Grapple, that could be very formidable. If you were doing that Shield Smashing/Spiked Destroyer thing, too, your Full Attack would be layer upon layer of pain!
Ectar |
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Instead of a cavalier dip you can achieve the same thing at 9th level by taking the advanced weapon training "Fighter Tactics" and grabbing paired opportunist as a regular feat.
If you want it earlier, you can pick up the Advanced Weapon Training feat to get fighter tactics as early as 5th level, and paired opportunist at 6th level.
My 2cp on the dazzling display discussion:
Don't forget about the advanced weapon and armor trainings that affect intimidate. With Dazzling Intimidate advanced weapon training (AWT from now on) and dazzling display, you can use dazzling display as a standard action.
Plus both an AWT and an advanced armor training (AAT) can allow you to use your BAB in place of ranks for intimidate.
Additionally, the armored confidence AAT gives a scaling bonus to intimidate based on the type of armor and your fighter level.
Ierox |
Avoid dazzling display, it sucks balls.
Cornugon Smash + Hurtful is where the power is at.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/hurtful-combat/
Completely discounting Advanced Weapon Training (which you probably shouldn't), I might do something like this:
Human(Stone Giant)
1 - Stone Soul
1F - Power Attack
2F - TWF
3 - Double Slice
4F - Improved Shield Bash (my apologies for the lateness)
5 - Hurtful
6F - Cornugon Smash (this + hurtful is better than ITWF, so it takes priority)
7 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
8F - Shield Slam
9 - Lunge
10F - Free feat
11 - Two-Weapon Rend
12F - Shield Mastery
Do what you can to get access to the Shieldtrained trait - it requires worshipping the CN deity Gorum.
Shisumo |
There is an actual viking archetype for the fighter, and it is actually focused on weapon/shield and Intimidate. You might want to check it out.
Louise Bishop |
There is an actual viking archetype for the fighter, and it is actually focused on weapon/shield and Intimidate. You might want to check it out.
Typically now any archetype that trades out Bravery or Weapon training is considered WORST than the Vanilla Fighter now. Advanced weapon training is just too good and was part of the "Fighter Fix". While Barbarian, Monk, Rogue, and Summoner got Unchained classes to fix their problems, They released Fighter options that helped bring the Fighter back in line in terms of power as a class.
Tyrant Lizard King |
I would check out the Viking archetype of Fighter.
For Bjorn I would discuss with your GM tracking your progress towards the History of Scars feat for +2 Natural Armor.
Otherwise, feat progression for weapon and shield;
R Racial Heritage (stone giant)
1- Stone Soul
1B Power Attack
2B Two-Weapon Fighting
3- Endurance
4B Improved Shield Bash
5- Diehard
6B Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7- Combat Expertise
8B Shield Focus
9- Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10B Improved Sunder
11- Sundering Strike
12B Shield Slam
13- Shield Master
14B Bashing Finish
15- Stumbling Bash
16B Improved Trip
17- Greater Trip
18B *Rage Power
19- Toppling Bash
20B *Rage Power
Viking gets to demoralize very quickly as it levels. If you want to capitalize on fear effects then I would drop some of the shield bash enhancement feats for Dazzling Display and get the Terrifying Howl rage power to send multiples running. Another option from Dazzling Display would be Shatter Defenses and Deadly Stroke. Another option would be to capitalize on the tripping from Toppling Bash and get Improved Unarmed Strike and Vicious Stomp feats for Shield Bash-trip-attack of opportunity(Greater Trip)-attack of opportunity(Vicious Stomp)-finish full attack. When they stand you most likely get another attack of opportunity (need Combat Reflexes) and you can shield bash them for a chance to trip/stomp combo them again and then make a full attack on them while they are prone >:)
*EDIT: super ninja'd. A lot of good ideas here. I certainly overlooked Two-Weapon Rend. The OP has PLENTY of options here lol
Magni Alfsson |
I would check out the Viking archetype of Fighter.
For Bjorn I would discuss with your GM tracking your progress towards the History of Scars feat for +2 Natural Armor.
Otherwise, feat progression for weapon and shield;
R Racial Heritage (stone giant)
1- Stone Soul
1B Power Attack
2B Two-Weapon Fighting
3- Endurance
4B Improved Shield Bash
5- Diehard
6B Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7- Combat Expertise
8B Shield Focus
9- Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10B Improved Sunder
11- Sundering Strike
12B Shield Slam
13- Shield Master
14B Bashing Finish
15- Stumbling Bash
16B Improved Trip
17- Greater Trip
18B *Rage Power
19- Toppling Bash
20B *Rage PowerViking gets to demoralize very quickly as it levels. If you want to capitalize on fear effects then I would drop some of the shield bash enhancement feats for Dazzling Display and get the Terrifying Howl rage power to send multiples running. Another option from Dazzling Display would be Shatter Defenses and Deadly Stroke. Another option would be to capitalize on the tripping from Toppling Bash and get Improved Unarmed Strike and Vicious Stomp feats for Shield Bash-trip-attack of opportunity(Greater Trip)-attack of opportunity(Vicious Stomp)-finish full attack. When they stand you most likely get another attack of opportunity (need Combat Reflexes) and you can shield bash them for a chance to trip/stomp combo them again and then make a full attack on them while they are prone >:)
*EDIT: super ninja'd. A lot of good ideas here. I certainly overlooked Two-Weapon Rend. The OP has PLENTY of options here lol
I really dig this build, but how do I get rage powers as feats? Or is this assuming Viking archetype?
Master Han Del of the Web |
The Dazzling Intimidation option for Advanced Weapon Training is another good choice for making intimidation more effective:
Dazzling Intimidation (Ex) The fighter applies his weapon training bonus to Intimidate checks and can attempt an Intimidate check to demoralize an opponent as a move action instead of a standard action. If he has the Dazzling Display feat, he can use it as a standard action instead of a full-round action.
This will open up the efficacy of Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses.
Aldizog |
Viking archetype gets to increase shield bonus, which should make Shield Specialization more useful (shield bonus to CMD). Stack that with the human FCB and Strength Surge and he'll have an unbeatable CMD against, say, Grapple and Trip. Even without Strength Surge he'd probably have good odds against a Purple Worm.
While AWT options are good, they were IMO primarily made necessary by the ridiculous Rage Powers introduced out of Core like CAGM, Beast Totem, and Spell Sunder - and the Viking gets Rage Powers. An even footing with the AWT fighter, more or less.
Magni Alfsson |
Thanks everyone for your help!
Here's what I came up with from level 2 on for feats and rage powers(Decided to go viking after all)
2 - twf
3 – imp shield bash
4 – double slice
5 - hurtful
6 – cornugon smash
7 – imp twf
8 - shield focus
9 – shield slam
10 – RP: guarded life
11 – shield master
12 – RP: greater guarded life
13 – two weapon rend
14 – RP: Terrifying howl
15 – stumbling bash
16 – RP: CaGM
17 – intimidating prowess
18 – RP: Flesh Wound
19 – bashing finish
20 – RP: body bludgeon
Thoughts?
Matt2VK |
I'm going to de-rail this thread and ask if you've taken a look at the Slayer class.
While you do loose some of the fighter feats, you gain LOTs of skill ranks, the Slayer Talents (access to Ranger fighter styles), plus study target and sneak attack.
1) Stone Soul
2) Slayer Talent-Ranger Style: Weapon & Shield - Feat: TWF
3) Imp Shield Bash
4) Slayer Talent- Rogue Talent-Combat Trick- Feat: Double Slice
5) Hurtful
6) Slayer Talent-Ranger Style: Weapon & Shield - Feat: Shield Master
7) Imp TWF
8) Slayer Talent- Your choice, maybe Rogue Talent Weapon Training for weapon focus.
9) Power Attack
10) Slayer Talent-Ranger Style: Weapon & Shield - Feat: Bashing Finish
.
.
.
.
While you're giving up some stuff, getting access to some feats early, Study Target, sneak attack damage, and lots more skill ranks I think more then make up for it.
The above feat progression could be tweaked better as I just tossed it together in 5 minutes.
Tyrant Lizard King |
Thanks everyone for your help!
Here's what I came up with from level 2 on for feats and rage powers(Decided to go viking after all)
2 - twf
3 – imp shield bash
4 – double slice
5 - hurtful
6 – cornugon smash
7 – imp twf
8 - shield focus
9 – shield slam
10 – RP: guarded life
11 – shield master
12 – RP: greater guarded life
13 – two weapon rend
14 – RP: Terrifying howl
15 – stumbling bash
16 – RP: CaGM
17 – intimidating prowess
18 – RP: Flesh Wound
19 – bashing finish
20 – RP: body bludgeonThoughts?
I'm unsure about getting Body Bludgeon. I LOVE that rage power but it's based on grappling and you have no feats to support it.
You have Terrifying Howl but not the prerequisite Intimidating Glare.Cornugon Smash is nice but if you're going Viking you will be able to Demoralize as a Swift at level 10 and as a Free action once per round at 18. Consider retraining at higher levels?
Aldizog |
I'd recommend fitting Barroom Brawler in there.
There are just so many situational feats that can be life-savers (Rat Catcher, Blind-Fight, Step Up, many more). And you can always use it for Dedicated Adversary in a boss fight if you have nothing better to do with it.
Bjorn and Ragnar seem quite good at adapting to the range of different tactics that they face.