Due Psychic casters have to combat cast?


Rules Questions


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Based on reading through the rules for psychic spells in Occult Adventures it seems like psychic casting would follow the same rules as spell like abilities and therefor the caster would need to combat cast in order to not draw attacks of opportunity for being distracted. However if this is the case then how does their ability to cast while pinned or paralyzed work? They would still need to combat cast or draw an attack of opportunity even though they were completely helpless to start with so not certain how this would make sense.


First up, it's not "combat cast", it's cast defensively. "Combat Casting" is a feat. Secondly, yes, psychic casters have to cast defensively when threatened, and unless they take a move action to center themselves, they take a -10 to their defensive casting check by virtue of being psychic casters.

They could still cast while pinned since they don't have any somatic or material components (Usually), but they would be unable to cast defensively as they cannot move and they would be required to make a concentration check for casting while being grappled; the same would apply to a paralyzed psychic caster but without the grappled concentration check.


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Not that I'm disagreeing with you're take on the subject, but where in the rules does is say you have to be able to move in order to cast defensively (my bad using the wrong term earlier)?


So it's not explicitly stated that casting on the defensive involves movement.

But....

Here is what the CRB says about being pinned.

pinned wrote:
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.

To me someone casting on the defensive is moving to try to avoid blows, they are keeping their guard up. To me it is more than just a "verbal or mental action".

If you have a way of describing your casting on the defensive that does not involve any movement, and your DM agrees that it is just a "mental action", then you can do it while you can't pinned. Just go into it knowing that most DM's will be wary of letting a pinned creature cast defensively.


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Casting defensively does not require movement, it requires a move action.

One is a physical action, the other is a measure of effort required. The two are completely independent of each other.


Snowlilly wrote:

Casting defensively does not require movement, it requires a move action.

One is a physical action, the other is a measure of effort required. The two are completely independent of each other.

I'm not saying that it requires tactical movement between squares. I'm saying that to me that "casting on the defensive" implies that you are being defensive. Being defensive, seems like more than just a mental action. Without rules to definitively state whether "casting on the defensive" is a purely mental action, it is left up to the DM to adjudicate. Unless I'm missing a rule somewhere, if so please point it out.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

And who's to say you don't need two Concentration checks when casting while grappled? One to cast defensively and avoid the attack of opportunity, and one to successfully cast while grappled/pinned?


PRD wrote:


Casting on the Defensive: Casting a spell while on the defensive does not provoke an attack of opportunity. It does, however, require a concentration check (DC 15 + double the spell's level) to successfully cast the spell. Failure means that you lose the spell.

I don't see casting defensively needing a move action...?

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Due or Do?


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No, it doesn't make sense. This has been a flaw in the AOO rules since the beginning of 3E.
You provoke an AOO by letting down your guard. But if you have no guard whatsoever - if you are paralyzed, for example - you don't provoke AOOs. (And yet if you use a purely mental action to cast, not changing your lack of guard one whit, then you provoke?)
People can CdG you, but they don't get a free attack just for standing next to you while you are helpless.
It cannot be rationalized from an in-game point of view. It only makes sense from a game balance point of view. It's a bad rule and I don't know how it could be better.


Franz Lunzer wrote:
PRD wrote:


Casting on the Defensive: Casting a spell while on the defensive does not provoke an attack of opportunity. It does, however, require a concentration check (DC 15 + double the spell's level) to successfully cast the spell. Failure means that you lose the spell.
I don't see casting defensively needing a move action...?

It's not, though psychic casters can spend a move action to center themselves to remove the -10 penalty they take on concentration checks for spells with thought components.


MichaelCullen wrote:
Franz Lunzer wrote:
PRD wrote:


Casting on the Defensive: Casting a spell while on the defensive does not provoke an attack of opportunity. It does, however, require a concentration check (DC 15 + double the spell's level) to successfully cast the spell. Failure means that you lose the spell.
I don't see casting defensively needing a move action...?
It's not, though psychic casters can spend a move action to center themselves to remove the -10 penalty they take on concentration checks for spells with thought components.

This

The move action is specific to psychic casters.


Aldizog wrote:

No, it doesn't make sense. This has been a flaw in the AOO rules since the beginning of 3E.

You provoke an AOO by letting down your guard. But if you have no guard whatsoever - if you are paralyzed, for example - you don't provoke AOOs. (And yet if you use a purely mental action to cast, not changing your lack of guard one whit, then you provoke?)
People can CdG you, but they don't get a free attack just for standing next to you while you are helpless.
It cannot be rationalized from an in-game point of view. It only makes sense from a game balance point of view. It's a bad rule and I don't know how it could be better.

Aldizog hit the nail on the head, I read the rules in Occult, and immediately realized this made no sense.

Sovereign Court

Jon Shelky wrote:
Aldizog wrote:

No, it doesn't make sense. This has been a flaw in the AOO rules since the beginning of 3E.

You provoke an AOO by letting down your guard. But if you have no guard whatsoever - if you are paralyzed, for example - you don't provoke AOOs. (And yet if you use a purely mental action to cast, not changing your lack of guard one whit, then you provoke?)
People can CdG you, but they don't get a free attack just for standing next to you while you are helpless.
It cannot be rationalized from an in-game point of view. It only makes sense from a game balance point of view. It's a bad rule and I don't know how it could be better.

Aldizog hit the nail on the head, I read the rules in Occult, and immediately realized this made no sense.

It never made sense to begin with, even before the introduction of Occult; spell-like abilities also don't have spell components but they also provoke, even when paralyzed.

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