All the Summon Monster / Nature's Ally Tricks


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And less restrictions on what the summons can do. Which can certainly become broken.


Mechanical Pear wrote:

Djelai, I see what you're saying now.

Arcanist would fuse Conjuration School (which starts good, then lessens in power), with the Bloodline ability to gain an additional summon (which doesn't come online until level 11). The additional summon is a guarantee, which will kick off Superior Summoning. That, compared to, say, a Pact Wizard (also evil, so I get a large list of Standard action summons), who casts one level higher (for one creature), or at the same level as the Arcanist, bringing out either 1, 3, or 4 summons. In that sense, it's better to get the guaranteed 3. Also, I really like the Arcanist's counterspelling, which is top-notch stuff.

Thank you for the answer. Here are my concerns:

1. Regarding the summon stuff:
Spoiler:
I do not think Added Summonings and Superior Summoning interact this way, but let's say, for the sake of the argument, that you are right and I am mistaken.
The way I see it:
Superior Summoning grants 1 extra creature when « the summon spell is used to summon more than one creature », which could mean:
1. anytime you use the spell to summon 1d3 creatures, you trigger Superior Summoning, effectively summoning 1d3+1 creatures, because "1d3 is more than 1", even if "1d3=1" 33% of the time.
2. Added Summonings does not trigger Superior Summoning if you use the spell to summon one creature only, because you are not using the spell to summon "more than 1 creature". The extra critter comes from another feature.

Is there any FAQ or Dev's comment that clarified this interaction?


OK, so your target is to consistently summon 3 creatures, instead of 1, 3, or 4 creatures... by lvl.12 (arc11/clr1), with a 16Kgp item.
Before this level, however, the trick does not kick in and you basically have the spell progression of a 2/3 caster, like a bard, without an early-entry spell list and without extra combat options. Quick comparison:
Spoiler:
lvl.4: clr1/arc3 => you cast 1st-level spells only. The bard can cast 2nd-level spells.
lvl.7: clr1/arc6 => you can cast 3rd-level spells, like the bard.
lvl.10: clr1/arc9 => you can cast 4th-level spells, like the bard (but you did get your 4th-level spells one level earlier).
lvl.11+: you are now a better spellcaster than the bard.

2. Regarding the counterspell stuff:
Considering that the counterspell exploit requires to expand a spell slot of the same level (if you are extremely lucky) or (more likely) one level higher than the spell you try to counterspell and that you miss a whole spell level compared to a prepared spellcaster, I doubt you can counterspell anything meaningful effectively.
Quick comparison:

Spoiler:
1. let's say you and the enemy wizard are both lvl.12 (or any even level above 11):
- The wizard cast a 6th-level spell => you can't counterspell, as you can only cast 5th-level spells.
- The wizard cast a 5th-level spell => you have only two 5th-level spells prepared and one of them is Summon Monster V. You probably won't be able to counterspell.
2. let's say you and the enemy wizard are both lvl.13 (or any odd level above 11):
- The wizard cast a 7th-level spell => you can't counterspell, as you can only cast 6th-level spells.
- The wizard cast a 6th-level spell => you have only one 6th-level spell prepared and it is Summon Monster VI. You probably won't be able to counterspell.

In any case, if the wizard cast a spell with a "personal" range, you can't counterspell this way due to how counterspelling works: « If the target is within range, both spells automatically negate each other with no other results. »

So, does the ability to summon 3 creatures 100% of the time instead of 67% at lvl.12+ really worth having the spell progression of a 2/3 caster for the first half of the game?
I still doubt it. Is there any arcanist's trick (I admit, I do not know the class very well) that could help the build at low levels?

Anyway, thank you again for your time.


With the introduction of the Cauldron item (costs 4,500 gp per daily use), it really does change the game. With my interpretation of the rules, it'd now probably be better to go with Pact Wizard.

With your interpretation, yes, it would be better.

I'm not sure about a FAQ, I've never thought there was opposing opinions on it before, heh. I just thought that's how it worked. I can definitely see where you're coming from, though.

About counterspell...against a like-level caster casting his strongest spells, yes, I wouldn't be able to counter (or at least, as easily). I could still use an immediate action to counter Haste at higher levels, or other lower-level good spells. Personal spells, according to the reading, can't be countered with the normal counterspell rules. However, the exploit is as Dispel Magic, which can counter at a medium range. Which also addresses "at level 12....you have two spells prepared." I get a +5 bonus to counter if it is the same spell, but I can use any of my 4 level 5 spells per day to use to counter. Items/feats/tricks might be able to come into play to help me bring up my counterspell CL, which would make it more effective, more reliable.

As far as tricks, no, not in my build. Very low level, I'm a sub-par caster (well, I can still pop off a summon in every surprise round, but other than that...). Honestly, what I like most about the class compared to Wizard is that it casts almost like a Sorcerer, with all the wizard spells known (pretty much). In that sense, it's not as good as a Human Sorcerer (they have a huge list of spells known, with the favored class bonus). But, they can have a school, and a bloodline, and get a large list of neat exploits (including free feats, like a wizard).

As far as casters go, I like the Arcanist quite a bit, so my bias might influence "which is the best arcane summoner". Either way, with the introduction of the new item, I'm about to build a Pact Wizard. With my reading of the rules, the spell would effectively summon 2d3 creatures, thus automatically qualifying for Superior Summoning.

And either way, I will try to find a FAQ about this.


[QUOTE="Djelai"C oncerns:
1. Regarding the summon stuff:

I do not think Added Summonings and Superior Summoning interact this way, but let's say, for the sake of the argument, that you are right and I am mistaken.
The way I see it:
Superior Summoning grants 1 extra creature when « the summon spell is used to summon more than one creature », which could mean:
1. anytime you use the spell to summon 1d3 creatures, you trigger Superior Summoning, effectively summoning 1d3+1 creatures, because "1d3 is more than 1", even if "1d3=1" 33% of the time.
2. Added Summonings does not trigger Superior Summoning if you use the spell to summon one creature only, because you are not using the spell to summon "more than 1 creature". The extra critter comes from another feature.
Is there any FAQ or Dev's comment that clarified this interaction?

Well, I have an honours degree in law and have studied philosophy as well. I should be able to interpret such things. My view is there is not one definitive answer. Normal English just isn't that precise.

It seems to me-
On (1) If you summon 1d3 creatures, it is more than 1 when you roll a 2 or 3.
On (2) it is just unclear. I think it is a GM call. Or a FAQ of course.


Joynt Jezebel wrote:
My view is there is not one definitive answer. Normal English just isn't that precise.

The final answer, albeit interesting, has little impact on the conclusion. Either way, I do not think it is worth to be a sub-par caster from lvl.3 to lvl.11, but I can see why the OP thinks otherwise.

Anyway, I am very interested in this upcoming Pact Wizard...


If you want to amp up your summons a bit consider Craft Wondrous Items or other crafting feats to make doodads to buff your summons. You can presumably slip an Amulet of Mighty Fists with the Bane property onto a summoned monster as a Move action, granting it +2 to attacks and +2 and +2d6 to damage against the right sort of foes. This can be especially effective on summons with multiple attacks though you should be mindful of how many attacks might be "too many" for your table (always a potential problem with summoning, but it potentially gets exacerbated with extra damage dice). Sometimes a tough summon with one big attack (two with Haste) can be a nice DR buster and get some stuff done without irritating the other players as much as a pouncing kitty.

Wands can be helpful too. Good Hope is A nice buff, and of course there's also Haste. If you have a familiar or eidolon wand jockey you can get those buffs out faster.


Ugh, many options here. Getting kinda bogged down.

Thinking about VMCing Bard, for example. Summon as standard, inspire courage as move, quicken Haste as swift. Insane knowledge checks. I have enough feats to burn, and I'm already partial to the feat Flagbearer (and the item Banner of the Ancient Kings), so maybe.

The more I do an evil Pact Wizard, the more evil I want him to be. True Name to free Call a marilith demon (maybe give her soul gems to appease her wrath towards you) or a planetar angel (raise dead 3/day with no components? At will de-debuffs? Other nice things? These aren't questions?). But, if I make a super evil caster have a legion of undead surrounding him, and holding a leash on a chained angel....it would be really hard to fit him into a normal campaign. That's like, antipaladin evil, not just "I don't care about other people" evil.

So I'm also making a good version (with the 2 level dip into Stargazer). This guy won't be able to standard cast a lot of stuff, but then I thought about him at level 7. With a standard turn, he can bring out 2d3+2 Lantern Archons. That's an average of 6 Auras of Menace stacking (creatures within 20 feet make a Will save DC13 for each Aura. Each save that fails gives -2 attack, AC, saves. So, you could potentially massive debuff quite a few creatures). Plus, 12 ranged touch attacks (30 ft. range) that do 1d6 damage each (even more, if I have Flagbearer, or VMC Bard, or any other buff). Or, 1d8 damage, I guess, with the Rod of Giant Summoning (that would count, I think). Plus, they have DR 10, at that low of a level. For being level 7, that's a heck of a standard action.

So, here's the first take on the Pact Wizard.

Really Evil Pact Wizard, not VMCing Bard:

Elf (Overwhelming Magic)
Neutral Evil

20 Wizard (Pact Wizard)

STR 7
DEX 12 +2 Racial
CON 12 -2 Racial
INT 18 +2 Racial, +5 Level
WIS 7
CHA 15

TRAITS
- Magical Lineage (?)
- Wayang Spellhunter (Haste)
- Reactionary

DRAWBACK
- Meticulous

ARCANE SCHOOL
Conjuration (Teleporation)
- Summoner’s Charm
- Shift
- Dimensional Steps

OPPOSITION SCHOOLS
Evocation
Necromancy (No longer an opposition school @Lv10)
Enchantment (No longer an opposition school @Lv17)

FEATS
1 Summon Evil Monster
1* Sacred Summons
1* Spell Focus (Conjuration)
1* Scribe Scroll
3 Augment Summoning
5 Superior Summoning
5* Vast Spell
7 Flagbearer
9 Improved Initiative
10*Opposition Research Discovery (Necromancy)
11 Scouting Summons
13 Quicken Spell
15 Spell Perfection (Summon Monster8) (Retrained@Lv17 to Summon Monster 9)
15*True Name Discovery
17 Opposition Research Discovery (Enchantment)
19 Extra Contingency
20*Immortality Discovery

ITEMS

Glove of Storing (10k gp)

Greater Rod of Giant Summoning (24,500 gp)

Cauldron of Overwhelming Allies (4,500 gp)
x10 (45k gp)

Banner of the Ancient Kings
(18k gp)

blah blah other items

I'm thinking VMC Bard might look like:

The Feats change to maybe this:

1 Summon Evil Monster
1* Sacred Summons
1* Spell Focus (Conjuration)
1* Scribe Scroll
5 Augment Summoning
5* Vast Spell
9 Superior Summoning
10*Scouting Summons
13 Flagbearer
15*Quicken Spell
17 Spell Perfection (Summon Monster 9)
20*True name Discovery

I'd lose Improved Initiative, two Opposition Research Discoveries, Extra Contingency, and the Immortality Discovery.

One last thing of note, as far as I'm aware, an arcane caster doesn't have to be holding a focus to activate it, correct? So I can use cauldrons on my person. I do need one hand free for Summon Monster (somatic component). And I want to duel-grip a staff (if I'm allowed) or pole with the Banner of Ancient Kings as much as I can. Even when not dual-gripping, I still want to be holding it in at least one hand while I Inspire Courage. ...and I want to be holding a Rod of Giant Summoning while I cast.

Not enough hands, without burning move actions, as far as I can tell.

I've thought of the gloves of storing, but still trying to work out the logistics.

PS I forgot to look into the Summon Guardian Spirit feat more. I may add it in.

It's very late, and I've typed a lot, so I'll come back to this later.


Devilkiller, I completely forgot about my familiar UMDing wands for me. That'll help things.

Good Hope is good for a wand, but in my particular build, it wouldn't work as well, if I am using a Banner of Ancient Kings with Flagbearer (they are both morale bonuses. Same amount, and to the same things from what I remember).

And there's synergy with VMCing bard that I wouldn't wanna lose, if I dropped Banner of the Ancient Kings.

But, I might have to, if I can't work out the whole hands thing.

A wand with 50 castings of Good Hope costs 11,250 gp. Banner of Ancient Kings gives the same bonus, forever, at 18k gp.

I dunno. I'll think more about it later.


If you've already got the morale bonus that's great. Haste or some other buff could work just as well. If you can get stuff like Blistering Invective out to debuff the enemies too that's also helpful in changing the math of the encounter. There must be at least a dozen potentially useful wands here.

Lantern Archons plus Discordant Voice, Haste, and morale bonuses can stack up to absolutely stupid damage totals. That can be fun as a one off stunt, but if it is your day to day plan it could end up seeming a little over the top. If you don't care about seeming over the top I've always wondered what it might be like to summon a bunch of augmented aurochs or bison and have them all trample.


Fire Music

If you multiclass as bard, this could give your summons a little more oomph. Don't know how useful it is though.


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Wizards have access to the Balanced Summoning. I'm a fan of using SM7+ to summon a lillend azata to inspire courage and turn the fiendish dire tiger invisible.


Reksew_Trebla wrote:

Fire Music

If you multiclass as bard, this could give your summons a little more oomph. Don't know how useful it is though.

El no worko.

Well, as a multiclassing option. From the Fire Music description:-

"If you cast a summon monster spell as a bard spell, you may choose to give the summoned creature a fiery appearance, which gives it fire resistance 5 and adds +1 fire damage to all of its natural attacks. The creature sheds dim light in a 5-foot radius. This aspect of the feat has no effect if the creature already has the fire subtype."

Fire music may be OK for a character that is just a bard.


Dot


Still having troubles with the hand issue. Trying to work those out in another thread.

And the alignment issue. I want a good guy, who does good things, to be able to summon devils/demons to help him. Like the malconvoker (I think that was the name) of 3.5.

A Pact Wizard can be Lawful Good, and have an aura of Chaotic Evil, and only summon demons, but as soon as he did something really, really lawful or good, he loses abilities. So, he's not really lawful or good, if he never does those things in story.

Some corrections of things I said previously: the Stargazer ability only works if you summon animals. So, pretty much, it only works for the druid.

Also, for some reason, I was thinking that summons get their full round actions in a surprise round. I was thinking that, because the first druid summoner I made was a Lion Shaman. When you summon pounce, they can all charge with their one standard action, then get full round attacks (at +2, even).

Lastly, since Sacred Summons is further penalized (can only summon that type of outsider as a standard action), I'm not sure Summon Evil Monster let's me get around that. Summon Evil Monster gets around the alignment subtype issue, but not the creature type one added by Pact Wizard.

So basically, I'm having troubles all around. Except with a druid summoner, she's doing fine.

The Exchange

Plains Domain for Druids is also awesome.

Duration for summoned quadruped herbivore like elephants, horsees, mastodons and so on is doubled and their landspeed is increased by 10 feet with the Migrating Herd power.


Don't recall if it was brought up, but Versatile Summon Monster/Nature's Ally are good feats to take. Also Summon Guardian Spirit is great.


Bearserk wrote:

Plains Domain for Druids is also awesome.

Duration for summoned quadruped herbivore like elephants, horsees, mastodons and so on is doubled and their landspeed is increased by 10 feet with the Migrating Herd power.

if only there was a matching animal shaman archetype.


Winter Wolf Runetooth seems amazing. Get Leadership and supply all of your followers with these, and watch the chaos ensue whenever someone tries to fight you at your base. Probably not usable long term though as it's a one time use item, so you'll either have to keep buying them or keep making them.


@Reksew, I couldn't find that item.

Otherwise, I didn't fully grasp the alignment issue. Pact wizards, for example, can only use Sacred Summons for one particular creature subtype. If I pick Demons, then anything other than a demon gets cast as a full round.

While I really like some Archons (Hound, Lantern, and Shield especially), I think that demons are the more powerful route. Not by much, and it's probably altered by my bias, but still.

But, this really does hurt a summoner for a while. Level's 1-4, I'm a very subpar caster. If I tried to summon something, it's full round, and weak.

Also, note, Summon Evil Monster isn't nearly as good as I thought it was, also. It does not expand the list of creatures really, that you can summon as a standard action. Summoning Fiendish Tigers is still full round, if your aura is Chaotic Evil, for example.

So, Pact Wizard isn't completely useless by any means. I just still would rather be a full spell level behind, and be an Arcanist or Sorcerer, dipped with something that gives Aura. I could be persuaded to be a regular Wizard, dipped in another class, but I dunno. Actually, I just had an idea that might make a Wizard a better choice, after all.

But, I do think I like the Cleric dip for an aura either way, if I'm going to summon demons. I worship Abraxas, the demon lord of secret and powerful magic. But I'm Chaotic Neutral. I seek power, and dabble in evil magic, but I'm not an evil guy. I can care about others, feel sympathy and have compassion.

Then I do away with Summon Evil Monster (which is basically useless anyway). Either way, I need to work on the wizard idea I just had, so I'm stopping here.


Here's the item:

Winter Wolf Runetooth


Armor of Fragmenting Stone

Robe of Gates

These are pretty good imo.


_Ozy_ wrote:

The always favorite/controversial:

Heightened Mount + Alter Summoned Monster

Heh.... considering the other things Paizo 'errata'd' (or rather revised...though I'm still a bit sore over the uselessness of my hard copy books because of Paizo's 'errata' certainly doesn't fit the definition of the term...i.e. to correct spelling mistakes, printing errors, clarify language) I'm very surprised Alter Summon Monster hasn't been fixed yet.

<checks if it's banned in PFS>...Yup. So no problem I guess.


For Mythic games, hell, maybe even regular games, though not as useful, and only if your GM allows it, Root of the World Tree is pretty good, as it allows you to add the advanced template to summoned creatures, and if you are mythic and use mythic power, apply dr/epic to the creatures.


Elemental Gem
Bowl of Conjuring Water Elementals
Brazier of Conjuring Fire Elementals
Censer of Conjuring Air Elementals
Stone of Conjuring Earth Elementals

These are all nice for summoning elementals.


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Guys, guys, guys, you're all wrong.

The most powerful summoner in the game is...

*drumroll*

THE PALADIN!

Step 1: Be a Paladin.
Step 2: Wear Bracers of Celestial Intervention.
Step 3: Convert 9 Smite Evil uses into Summon Monster IX and summon an Astral Deva as a Standard Action.
Step 4: Profit.

A Paladin with Oath of Vengeance can convert 2 uses of Lay on Hands into one use of Smite Evil. If we are ignoring WBL restrictions, our Paladin can cast a 9th level spell as a standard action at level 7 (16 Charisma, Extra Lay on Hands feat at 3rd, 5th and 7th level = 12 Lay on Hands per day or 6 Smite Evil per day, plus 3 Smite Evil per day from Class levels).

Note, this is PFS legal too. Not too shabby, eh?


Is there any sort of summoning spell with a duration of hour(s) per level for a divine caster?


Half-elves can Paragon Surge to pick up any feat on demand. If you have the prep time and know what you need, you can cherry pick anything from summon evil/neutral/good list from day to day (though, important caveat, once you cast it, until you rest and refresh your spell slots, every time you cast the spell after the first you get the same feat and the same choices you made for that feat the first time).

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