Some people above in this thread believe that Shadow-Bound + Lightbringer is getting something for nothing (including the post just before this one), and while one can argue about how much it breaks things, they do have a valid point.
With respect to Androids + No Morale Bonuses, you do have a point -- unlike Undead/Dhampir + Lich/Vampire Curse, you DON'T have the fact of both the penalty bonus being redundant to what you already have and thereby canceling each other out(*), so something specific needs to be done here -- probably specific text saying that you can't take the Accursed Curse if you already can't benefit from Morale Bonuses (so an Android wouldn't be able to take this without taking the feat to enable Morale Bonuses, although a feat is awfully expensive for this -- really should have been a trait, so that it can still be acquired, but at lesser expense).
(*)That's really what I missed on the previous time through.
Also, while I didn't actually find anything overpowered enough to be gamebreaking above, it's good to go through and check to be sure. Also, little problems have a way of growing into bigger ones if you don't do something about them.
With respect to suboptimal builds for Oracle -- keep in mind that if you want the Ancient Lorekeeper archetype, you need to be an Elf (suboptimal ability score distribution, but in which case Lightbringer is available) or Half-Elf (better ability score distribution, but if I recall correctly, in PFS being a Half-Elf isn't good enough to qualify for the archetype), or be Human with Racial Heritage (Elf) (which is also suboptimal because it eats a whole feat, and deprives you of the Elf racial features in exchange for getting a better ability score description).
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Some people above in this thread believe that Shadow-Bound + Lightbringer is getting something for nothing (including the post just before this one), and while one can argue about how much it breaks things, they do have a valid point.
With respect to this, we aren't talking about anything to do with the actual rules. We're talking about feelings and belief with do nothing to break the rules of the game. They might be the basis for a house-rule, just like anything else that's a personal dislike.
There is no rule stating that you can't get something for or defining what that is. That's what I've been getting at: you're trying to fix something that isn't a rule problem with a rule. If a DM dislikes a build, he rule 0's it: he doesn't need the whole game altered to fit his needs.
Also, while I didn't actually find anything overpowered enough to be gamebreaking above, it's good to go through and check to be sure. Also, little problems have a way of growing into bigger ones if you don't do something about them.
I have no issue with going though and looking for combo's that actually break something like infinite free action throwing shield attacks: things that an actual quantifiable negative effect on the game. Something that bother some people's sensibilities doesn't fit the bill IMO.
With respect to suboptimal builds for Oracle -- keep in mind that if you want the Ancient Lorekeeper archetype, you need to be an Elf (suboptimal ability score distribution, but in which case Lightbringer is available) or Half-Elf (better ability score distribution, but if I recall correctly, in PFS being a Half-Elf isn't good enough to qualify for the archetype), or be Human with Racial Heritage (Elf) (which is also suboptimal because it eats a whole feat, and deprives you of the Elf racial features in exchange for getting a better ability score description).
Suboptimal builds are littered throughout the game. Some things you have to 'pay your dues' that way. As others have noted, you have to 'pay' an opportunity cost to take advantage of them so it's disingenuous to say they got 'something for nothing'. For instance, lets look at the poster you mentioned.
"Anyway, in my game I wouldn't allow it, choosing a curse and a race like this specifically to suffer no drawbacks is silly.": this ignores that fact that the drawback is having 2 less in your casting stat and losing immunity to magic sleep effects, a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells and effects, a +2 racial bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance and a +2 racial bonus on Spellcraft skill checks made to identify the properties of magic items. Hardly no drawback, just no drawback specifically from the curse.
It's even MORE pronounced with other races: androids/Wyrwood look at -4 to the casting stat, making the cost of ignoring the curse an even bigger drawback.
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To those that think it isn't 'fair' that "Shadow-Bound + Lightbringer is getting something for nothing", fair might be a reason for it happening. Take for instance a entity that is a stickler for fair play and wants all the oracle he powers to be on even footing. For instance, he give curses with strong drawbacks to strong people and weaker ones to weaker people. If he runs into an android, he might not think he needs anymore handicap than his race already gives him, as his compatibility with oracle if very low, so he gives him Accursed to keep him 'balance' with his other oracles.
What is there with this situation that seems unfair, incompatible with lore/fluff or breaks the game in any way? People that doggedly say that curses MUST always be a hindrance seem to not be thinking out of the box and instead are thinking in box that quite small instead.
EDIT: I just had a thought. UnArcaneElection, is your 'fix' meant to be a houserule fix or a proposed fix to the actual rules? If you've been talking houserules, I've got no issue with you. Everyone plays their own way and if someone WANTS to go into the extra work to fix something that bothers them in their own game I'm all for it. I'm just against altering the existing base rules.
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Wow, a lot of words in this thread. Anyway, in my game I wouldn't allow it, choosing a curse and a race like this specifically to suffer no drawbacks is silly.
Two things. First, they are spending racial traits for this immunization, so it isn't free. Second, a character's race can be changed in-game, while the curse will remain regardless of form.
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Curses are a lesson and a test.
I guess skipping lessons and cheating on tests has appeal to some.
When all is said and done, it is still your table's preference.
Everyone willing to actually look at it can see that neither side of the argument is unequivocally right, and we are just discussing preferences.
If your GM says yes, then Yes. If your GM says no, then No.
If you are trying to use this thread to change your GM's stance...
Well, good luck with that, I guess.
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Is taking lightbringer really getting something for nothing? Because you are losing Immunity to magical sleep, a bonus versus some of the most dangerous debuffs in the game (confusion, dominate, etc), and a bonus versus the strongest defense monsters have against a number of spells. In exchange you are Immune to a condition you will face more often but is far, far less debilitating than unconsciousness, a small bonus on light based caster level checks, and maybe a racial cantrip which in this instance is kinda useless to you, since you get darkvision.
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No, taking Lightbringer is not something for nothing.
However, taking Lightbringer and not having that being a central facet of the character concept, but just a sleaze around a curse, would never fly at my table.
Questions I would ask:
If you can't come up with a good answer to all these questions, then try something else.
If you think the questions are just a stupid waste of time, then you are at the wrong table.
Both the Lightbringer racial ability and an Oracles Curses are hugely thematic.
If it is all meaningless fluff to you, pity.
You wouldn't like my tables anyway.
I guess that is the basic issue that I have. It sounds like someone trying to just bypass the curse, which seems oddly wrong for the theme of an oracle. Of course, if there was some backstory that filled in *why* and it made some sense, then sure. Absent that no. Alternately you could just have the GM always pick the curse, after character creation. So you really were just struck with a curse.
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To me, this is a player who should be applauded for NOT min/maxing their PC instead of being punished for it. Elves have no inherent synergy with the Oracle class and as others have mentioned lightbringer trades out some pretty sweet racial bonuses.
More importantly 'tho, I can picture the concept behind this character: a celestial-touched elf who also has some sort of drow or perhaps fetchling blood in her ancestry. Struggling to find or maintain the balance of light and darkness within, while not even fully aware of the divine influence behind her chosen career path.
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I originally was going to say LightBringer nullifies the curse but Quibble address the issue in a logical manner I can't really argue against.the curse does not state that is suppresses immunities that are already in place or that come into play in the future so it would not suppress lightbringer nor would any curse that invokes the sickend condition be able to bypass an immunity to being sickend
Unless those immunities are directly granted by a deity, they will not allow an oracle to circumvent conditions imposed by their curse.
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Unless those immunities are directly granted by a deity, they will not allow an oracle to circumvent conditions imposed by their curse.
That's not an actual rule.
The Curse says "The oracle's curse cannot be removed or dispelled without the aid of a deity."
It's not being removed or dispelled. It's a legal combination. Just because some people don't like it doesn't make it wrong.
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Unless those immunities are directly granted by a deity, they will not allow an oracle to circumvent conditions imposed by their curse.I originally was going to say LightBringer nullifies the curse but Quibble address the issue in a logical manner I can't really argue against.the curse does not state that is suppresses immunities that are already in place or that come into play in the future so it would not suppress lightbringer nor would any curse that invokes the sickend condition be able to bypass an immunity to being sickend
Immunity to curses, or even the effects of a curse, isn't the same as removing curses, stop trying to apply a rule to something that's different than what the rules actually say.
Actually it is a more powerful thing than you think, for our little elf.
Having both low-light vision and darkvision together can be effective. Unhindered combat scale vision plus the ability of spotting light sources at twice or more the distance a daysider or darkvision nightsider can is nothing to be casually discounted. Add to this light immunity with regards to sight effects.
Now would Darklight flashbangs work against the Shadowbound Lightbringer? I would think so, so be careful if you dungeon-crawl with Daysider and Dusksider adventurers.
The shadow summons and shadow walk abilities are nothing to sneeze at either.
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No, taking Lightbringer is not something for nothing.
However, taking Lightbringer and not having that being a central facet of the character concept, but just a sleaze around a curse, would never fly at my table.Questions I would ask:
Why has your Lightbringer character been touched by Darkness?
How does this Curse effect your character, thematically?
How is your character Seeking their Light?
How has the Curse affected their search? If you can't come up with a good answer to all these questions, then try something else.
If you think the questions are just a stupid waste of time, then you are at the wrong table.Both the Lightbringer racial ability and an Oracles Curses are hugely thematic.
If it is all meaningless fluff to you, pity.
You wouldn't like my tables anyway.
LOL There are several things here.
1st: why do these NEED to be central to the character? Other than having a limp, what else needs to be said for a lame oracle? What else does a blackened oracle that plays a caster type character do other than maybe wear long gloves and never talks about it again? Now they could play a big part in the character development but they don't HAVE to.2nd: I question your questions. Nothing in the lightbringer indicated 'seeking the light', it just says the character is " infused with the radiant power of the heavens." To me, this can be as simple as having some celestial blood. Much the same, 'touched by darkness' could indicate drow blood. So all the 'issues' you see could be explained by things that happen in the background, not needing ot be 'central' points of the character.
3rd: even if we agreed on the questions, we could differ on what a 'good answer' is to them. For instance, I find these answer good but you might not: drow blood, dislikes lit areas, doesn't as he just has celestial blood and there IS no search.
4th: it's true that lightbringer and oracle curses MIGHT be hugely thematic, I disagree that they are REQUIRED to be. They could be central to the character or you might never know they exist to the character. It all depends on the player that's building the character as it's not the ability in a vacuum that makes it thematic.
I guess that is the basic issue that I have. It sounds like someone trying to just bypass the curse, which seems oddly wrong for the theme of an oracle. Of course, if there was some backstory that filled in *why* and it made some sense, then sure. Absent that no. Alternately you could just have the GM always pick the curse, after character creation. So you really were just struck with a curse.
I don't really understand the NEED for a good backstory. Why does the character have to know the ins and out of the gods the class says they don't fully understand. They are a class that "garner strength and power from many sources". Why does a set of powers that's granted by a group of possible chaotic gods forced to 'make sense' to the typical mortal? Human committees will often come up with monstrosities that bare little in common with the original concept. Add elder ones, trickster gods and the like into the mix and it's be a miracle if it DID make sense.
Asking for the character to have the 'why' figured out makes little sense when the "granted power without their choice, selected by providence to wield powers that even they do not fully understand." It's a class that's expected to not understand itself, unless you somehow negate part of it's curse, then you have to KNOW every little interaction and make sure it meets the sensibilities of the DM...
Actually it is a more powerful thing than you think, for our little elf.
Actually he isn't. You're mixing up the curse and the racial ability. So lets talk about them independently.
Lightbringer: immune to blind/dazzle comes up much less often than magic sleep effects, enchantment spells and effects, caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance and Spellcraft skill checks made to identify the properties of magic items combined. So they are at a loss there.
Curses are a requirement, so it's meaningless to talk about it's strength. However what IS relevant is the fact the curse is weaker for the lightbringer elf than a 'normal' oracle. Shadow conjuration/shadow evocation are VERY dependent on it's saves as it does 20% effect if the save is made with that kind of importance, the lower casting stat hurts a LOT. Shadow walk used offensively runs into a similar issue by having a lower save.
So in conclusion, our 'little elf' is weaker than the average oracle with the Shadowbound curse: they have less spells, have lower spell DC's, lower concentration checks, ect. Add to that, the 'normal' oracle can easily bypass the curse with things like a Veiled Eye or Protective Penumbra. The elf clearly isn't 'getting something for free' of 'getting one over on the game'. He paid a CLEAR cost to ignore the curse.
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Order of Operations is completely a thing in Pathfinder, mostly with metamagics.
The rule basically is, "If the order in which you apply augmentations to an effect changes the actual effect, you always must chose the least advantageous option for the acting character."
(BTW, "character" covers both Player and GM characters.)
This was argued with the "More Specific Trumps Less Specific" argument, but, reasonably, both Shadowbound and Lightbringer are equally specific, so it is null. So the "Order" comes in by choosing which is the basic condition, and which is the condition that overrides that base condition. Does the Curse's Effect, (gaining a weakness against light, being dazzled/blinded by by daylight/bright light), trump the Lightbringers Effect, (gaining a resistance to Light, being immune to the various levels of blinding due to Light.), or does Lightbringer trump Shadowbound?
I hadn't thought to apply that to this discussion, but it does at least have precedent.
It is still up to the GM unless the Gods of FAQ step in.
So
EDIT/ADD
Sorry, was interrupted.
There is no Right answer here, there are obvious Overiding Preferences.
I am not trying to tell any of you what to do, to take away your special thing or saying you are Wrong, but this has obviously gone beyond reasonable debate.
Be Well, Be Happy when you can.
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This was argued with the "More Specific Trumps Less Specific" argument, but, reasonably, both Shadowbound and Lightbringer are equally specific, so it is null. So the "Order" comes in by choosing which is the basic condition, and which is the condition that overrides that base condition. Does the Curse's Effect, (gaining a weakness against light, being dazzled/blinded by by daylight/bright light), trump the Lightbringers Effect, (gaining a resistance to Light, being immune to the various levels of blinding due to Light.), or does Lightbringer trump Shadowbound?
Which comes first doesn't matter in the least. Immunity trumps temp conditions and all the curse does is pass out temp conditions. It works the SAME way as someone poisoned or taking continuous elemental damage gaining immunity to poison or that elemental damage. Once you gain the immunity, the effect stops.
"A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources. Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on school, level, or save type), and other effects. A creature that is immune does not suffer from these effects, or any secondary effects that are triggered due to an immune effect." So you do not suffer from the effect as soon as immunity kicks in. No order needed.
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I mean, when it comes to the low opportunity cost for ignoring your curse, taking the Aboleth curse of corruption together with the Deathtouched trait or the Sound of Mind trait, gives you a class feature that gives you Charm Person, Hypnotism, Minor Image, Modify Memory, and Veil as spells known, with no other side effects...
(Incidentially, I think you've mix-matched a bit from the Aboleth and Demonic curses from Horror Realms, UnArcaneElection. Aboleth CoC gives some spells known for -2 to saves vs. mind-affecting, and Demonic CoC gives restrictions on spells you can cast, social penalties vs lawful / good folks, and +2 on Bluff / Intimidate w/ one as class skill (Diplomacy no longer being one). Sorry for being nitpicky!)
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The Oracle's Burden spell would still function on my enemies if I was an Oracle with this combination, even if I circumvented the penalties my Curse originally gave me.
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I mean, when it comes to the low opportunity cost for ignoring your curse, taking the Aboleth curse of corruption together with the Deathtouched trait or the Sound of Mind trait, gives you a class feature that gives you Charm Person, Hypnotism, Minor Image, Modify Memory, and Veil as spells known, with no other side effects...
You could put dual-curse [Shattered Psyche/Aboleth] into the mix too. The +4 from Shattered Psyche completely negates the -2 from Aboleth and is a perfect fit for theme/fluff. The traits are just gravy. ;)
The Oracle's Burden spell would still function on my enemies if I was an Oracle with this combination, even if I circumvented the penalties my Curse originally gave me.
Yep. Negating the effects of the curse doesn't get rid of the class feature after all.
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The Oracle's Burden spell would still function on my enemies if I was an Oracle with this combination, even if I circumvented the penalties my Curse originally gave me.
That would be my one concern with if I were the GM.
To counter that, as GM I'd explain to the PC that if they used this spell (or similar ones), that I'd be changing their race (via reincarnate, but they'd switch while still alive and it would be instantaneous and not resistable). It's one thing to be immune to the effects of their oracle's curse, it's another attempt to bestow the effects that they are ignoring onto others.
For fluff, I'd explain that deity might overlook an oracle that just happens to be born luckly immune to their curse, but using the spell in this manner would call this error to the attention of the deity and they'd fix it. As per reincarnate, I'd allow the PC to change back to their original race with wish or miracle.
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The Oracle's Burden spell would still function on my enemies if I was an Oracle with this combination, even if I circumvented the penalties my Curse originally gave me.That would be my one concern with if I were the GM.
To counter that, as GM I'd explain to the PC that if they used this spell (or similar ones), that I'd be changing their race (via reincarnate, but they'd switch while still alive and it would be instantaneous and not resistable). It's one thing to be immune to the effects of their oracle's curse, it's another attempt to bestow the effects that they are ignoring onto others.
For fluff, I'd explain that deity might overlook an oracle that just happens to be born luckly immune to their curse, but using the spell in this manner would call this error to the attention of the deity and they'd fix it. As per reincarnate, I'd allow the PC to change back to their original race with wish or miracle.
So, you'd forcibly change their race because they're bestowing the effects of a curse they otherwise don't suffer from? That's the biggest bunch of crap I've ever seen, all because somebody wants to provide light sensitivity/blindness to an enemy. That's also both irrelevant and a strawman, because the point of that post wasn't to question what you, as a GM, would do if a player pulled this combination at your table. The point was to question why people think immunity to the effects of a curse is the same thing as removing the curse.
The rules, per RAW, permit you to do this, which is A. What the OP was really only concerned with, and B. The intent behind the feature is quite clear as to what requires deific interference, which is the removal of a curse. Anything else associated with the curse, such as circumventing the penalties it provides through other means, functions as normal.
The spell doesn't say that the Oracle must suffer from the curse to bestow its negative effects upon them, only that they must have the class feature. In that same vein, the Oracle curse only says you can't remove it without the help of a deity, having Immunity to certain effects (which coincide with the curse) isn't the same thing as removing the curse.
I seriously wish people would actually argue the points I'm making instead of treating removal of X and the circumvention of X as being the same damn thing. (I get that mathematically it is, but mechanically it isn't, and the spell I linked is proof of that.)
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So, you'd forcibly change their race because they're bestowing the effects of a curse they otherwise don't suffer from? That's the biggest bunch of crap I've ever seen, all because somebody wants to provide light sensitivity/blindness to an enemy. That's also both irrelevant and a strawman, because the point of that post wasn't to question what you, as a GM, would do if a player pulled this combination at your table. The point was to question why people think immunity to the effects of a curse is the same thing as removing the curse.
I would tell them when they created the character, for starters. So the player would know what they were signing onto before it came up. This would not be a surprise to the player.
Furthermore, Reincarnation isn't horrible, provided you know it is coming and plan accordingly. It would make for a great disguise. And the PC can certainly fix this via Wish or Miracle, so it isn't a permanent change, if the PC doesn't like the new race.
Bottom line, the PC is not required to learn that spell. After being told my plan should they use it, they can certainly pick another spell instead.
But I enjoy playing, and GMing, in a setting where the GM is allpowerful. Not a fan of the PFS style of GMing where the GM is closer a referee than a Game Master.
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Oh, I gave you the benefit of the doubt assuming that you'd tell them upfront about it, though there are plenty of GMs who wait until it actually happens for them to say something. "Forcibly," in this case, didn't mean "on the spot," it meant "Without control (or consent)," which is still beyond stupid for a GM to require a race change because a player is circumventing light sensitivity/blindness.
I will remind you that Blindness is a PERMANENT DURATION 2nd level Arcane Spell that functions whenever you cast it, and that Oracle's Burden, in this case, only provides a 1 round duration of Blindness assuming the enemy is in bright light. So, not only are the applications a lot less, but the power level is a lot less as well, and they are equal level spells.
The fact that you're nerfing one simply because they took a trait to circumvent penalties that are comparatively not that bad, compared to another option that's infinitely more powerful, is both baffling and ridiculous.
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I will remind you that Blindness is a PERMANENT DURATION 2nd level Arcane Spell that functions whenever you cast it, and that Oracle's Burden, in this case, only provides a 1 round duration of Blindness assuming the enemy is in bright light. So, not only are the applications a lot less, but the power level is a lot less as well, and they are equal level spells.
The fact that you're nerfing one simply because they took a trait to circumvent penalties that are comparatively not that bad, compared to another option that's infinitely more powerful, is both baffling and ridiculous.
That's a fair arguement, though blindness/deafness is already on the Oracle spell list as a 3rd level spell, so if they just want to blind people while avoiding my predetermined consequences, it is certainly an option if they just wait to learn the spell normally. They could also just use a dirty trick manuver, if blinding for a single round is the entire goal.
Oracles Burden would remain in effect for 1 minute/level, which could potentially leave the target blind for that entire duration.
Beyond the level and the duration, the only real difference between the spells is that the Oracles Burden is resisted by a will save and the Blindness/Deafness is resisted by a fort save. I don't really think this matters much, it is a worthy note.
I do think the intention of Oracle's Burden is that the target suffers as the Oracle does, so the spell is more powerful when the Oracle is more crippled. I would allow an immune PC to do it once, at high cost (like being reincarnated into a race that isn't immune), but I don't think they should be able to spam it while not being burdened, as that goes beyond the intentions of the spell.
And, for the record, I certainly wouldn't create encounters to attempt force the PC to need to use the spell in this manner.
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No, taking Lightbringer is not something for nothing.
However, taking Lightbringer and not having that being a central facet of the character concept, but just a sleaze around a curse, would never fly at my table.Questions I would ask:
Why has your Lightbringer character been touched by Darkness?
How does this Curse effect your character, thematically?
How is your character Seeking their Light?
How has the Curse affected their search? If you can't come up with a good answer to all these questions, then try something else.
If you think the questions are just a stupid waste of time, then you are at the wrong table.Both the Lightbringer racial ability and an Oracles Curses are hugely thematic.
If it is all meaningless fluff to you, pity.
You wouldn't like my tables anyway.
"It all started many centuries ago. My parents, as you know, were devout priests of Sarenrae their whole life. They worked tirelessly to show the light of redemption to many a criminal, and though their kindness was often greeted with greed and wickedness, bringing poverty unto their house, they never wavered in faith nor cursed any for their misfortune. They simply accepted it as another trial, and after a century of marriage they successfully had their first and only child.
Sarenrae had smiled upon them, and bestowed in me the blessings of the light. I could conjure it from whatever I touched, even as a baby, and I could see into the glare of the sky unblinkingly. I would spend many hours gazing at the sun and wondering where all the light came from and where it would go. Some instinctive need to understand this rose up from my very core until I got it in my head that light must all spawn from the center of the universe. Telling my parents of this, they smiled and said it was time to begin my education, for they believed I had found my purpose.
They sent me to live and learn from a powerful conjurer, then Oswald the Observant, now Oswald the Unhinged. He studied the planes for some time, and had agreed to teach me magic in exchange for assistance in his research. I would spend most of my time transcribing old formulae from worm-riddled old texts on to a more resilient parchment for him, told I could learn the basics from reading them even though I couldn't understand half of them. But every second I could spare from my chores I spent researching in his old library. I learned that at the center of existence there lies a powerful god known as The Daemon Sultan Azathoth, The Blind Idiot God unaware even of its own existence.
This god was the light, It must be. In my foolish childhood I simply believed the god, who was written of only in the darkest of tones, was misunderstood, and that It must really know all there is to know. I convinced myself that if I could commune with It I would fulfill my life's purpose. I knew that Oswald could commune with the gods, for after decades of working with him, I had known him to do so several times. He would go into a trance as he opened his mind to the planes, and afterwards he sometimes locked himself in his tower for several months. As I knew he had personally transcribed the ritual, not trusting me with it, I devised a plan.
One night, several days after Oswald had locked himself in his bedroom stricken with the peculiar illness that accompanied his communion on occasion, I snuck into his study and found the right ritual, written on a single page. I carefully copied it and left the duplicate in its place, then went to study. Within a week I had figured out how to reach the god, and I recited the mantra casting my mind through the void.
I heard the infernal piping of a thousand mad magicians, and saw a hideous mass of semi-solid tentacles, prismatic eye-like globes, and other, less definitive tendrils, and knew this was the god. Scared but still determined, I screamed questions I no longer recall into the void. All I recall of them is that the god was greatly disturbed by Its ability to reply, and that it would show me the truth I sought to deter any further annoyances from me. I saw the light which the Dark Tapestry betwixt the earth and the stars should hide, the tapestry parted by the horrendous appendages of a mad dream. I gazed unblinkingly upon the light of reality, and for the first time cursed my divine sight, for I could not even squint or shield my eyes from the horrid truths. And as I loomed on the verge of madness, a darkness crept into paradoxes.
I saw that reality as we know it is but the shadow of reality as The Daemon Sultan knows it to be, and that the shadowy dreams of reality are Its creations given form. They comfort It and lure It into slumber, for it cannot tolerate life as It knows life if It is fully awake. The Blind Idiot God is not so stupid as to not know Its existence, merely scared that It cannot afford to be fully cognizant of Its existence.
For five weeks I remembered that instant with perfect clarity, and it haunts me to this very day. I was struck dumb by eternity, until my mind obscured the visions behind walls of cynicism and shadow. I bound myself to that shadow subconsciously trying to preserve my sanity. I wish I had succumbed to madness for then I could forget fully the secrets of the tapestries. I wish my eyes were not granted by the goddess for then I could have gone blind rather than see the truths.
Since that day, my eyesight has not decayed, but I still avoid the light, for in it lies a fraction of the eldritch nightmare we call reality as we live in its shadow. That is why I carry a parasol all day, and that is why I shy away from the fire. It helps me ignore that which I do not fully recall, but can never truly forget."
Lightbringer was a gift granted to him for his parents devotion, and he sought light because of childhood curiosity until he found it in the center of existence during an incident with a scroll of Contact Other Plane. Now he does not seek it he fears it and clings to shadows because he can see too much within the light.
Its not impossible to come up with justifications for apparent paradoxes, and this sort of fits with my casual knowledge of the lore around the god who "cursed" the oracle.
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{. . .}
EDIT: I just had a thought. UnArcaneElection, is your 'fix' meant to be a houserule fix or a proposed fix to the actual rules? If you've been talking houserules, I've got no issue with you. Everyone plays their own way and if someone WANTS to go into the extra work to fix something that bothers them in their own game I'm all for it. I'm just against altering the existing base rules.
I could go either way on that. I'm certainly not going to force my proposed fixes on other people, but I would vote for them if they came up for a vote. Although come to think of it, putting something like this in terms of proposed house rules is probably a good idea anyway. (Although getting into a situation where I could actually apply house rules is another matter, but that's outside the scope of this thread.) This isn't in my Top 5 "Things to Change" list for Pathfinder -- it just happens to be relevant to this thread. Maybe in my Top 200 . . . .
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{. . .}
EDIT: I just had a thought. UnArcaneElection, is your 'fix' meant to be a houserule fix or a proposed fix to the actual rules? If you've been talking houserules, I've got no issue with you. Everyone plays their own way and if someone WANTS to go into the extra work to fix something that bothers them in their own game I'm all for it. I'm just against altering the existing base rules.I could go either way on that. I'm certainly not going to force my proposed fixes on other people, but I would vote for them if they came up for a vote. Although come to think of it, putting something like this in terms of proposed house rules is probably a good idea anyway. (Although getting into a situation where I could actually apply house rules is another matter, but that's outside the scope of this thread.) This isn't in my Top 5 "Things to Change" list for Pathfinder -- it just happens to be relevant to this thread. Maybe in my Top 200 . . . .
Okie dokie then, carry on. Have fun storming the castle. ;)
Paradozen,
Interesting story, worthy of justifying this kind of thing.
Except that you really missed what the Lightbringers are, from what I have read and been told.
They have nothing to do with Sarenrae or any human religious concept, they are wholly an Elven phenomenon. They are searching for a transcendent knowledge or experience, to become one with the Light. Exactly what this means to each seeker varies, wildly, but the power of it is in the search, it isn't a gift like a divine boon, it is part of getting closer to the Light. I am not sure what transcending means, maybe the dev's know, but I rather suspect it is not meant to be part of the game world, it is the search that is important, kind of like "The journey is what is important, not the destination." I may be way off on this last bit.
I don't think Lightbringers are supposed to be capable of giving up completely, they just keep trying different approaches, your concept could lead to some pretty scary ones.
If you character did no longer seek the light, I am not sure he would still be a Lightbringer. You might try that he is seeking the Light in Darkness. It fits in with your Dark Tapestry theme very well. I am not sure that you wouldn't be setting yourself up for a Corruption masquerading as a Transcendance, but at least it would be interesting concept. I would work with a player/character on this kind of concept.
I would of course expect the character to act accordingly, which with this concept would include some risky and probably insane choices. Not a character headed for a quiet retirement, but likely to have one of the Table Hall of Fame Death Scenes.
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Paradozen,
Interesting story, worthy of justifying this kind of thing.
Except that you really missed what the Lightbringers are, from what I have read and been told.
They have nothing to do with Sarenrae or any human religious concept, they are wholly an Elven phenomenon. They are searching for a transcendent knowledge or experience, to become one with the Light. Exactly what this means to each seeker varies, wildly, but the power of it is in the search, it isn't a gift like a divine boon, it is part of getting closer to the Light. I am not sure what transcending means, maybe the dev's know, but I rather suspect it is not meant to be part of the game world, it is the search that is important, kind of like "The journey is what is important, not the destination." I may be way off on this last bit.I don't think Lightbringers are supposed to be capable of giving up completely, they just keep trying different approaches, your concept could lead to some pretty scary ones.
If you character did no longer seek the light, I am not sure he would still be a Lightbringer. You might try that he is seeking the Light in Darkness. It fits in with your Dark Tapestry theme very well. I am not sure that you wouldn't be setting yourself up for a Corruption masquerading as a Transcendance, but at least it would be interesting concept. I would work with a player/character on this kind of concept.
I would of course expect the character to act accordingly, which with this concept would include some risky and probably insane choices. Not a character headed for a quiet retirement, but likely to have one of the Table Hall of Fame Death Scenes.
Lightbringer is a racial trait for elves.
You seem to be talking about a Brightness Seeker. They aren't related.
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Paradozen,
Interesting story, worthy of justifying this kind of thing.
Except that you really missed what the Lightbringers are, from what I have read and been told.
They have nothing to do with Sarenrae or any human religious concept, they are wholly an Elven phenomenon. They are searching for a transcendent knowledge or experience, to become one with the Light. Exactly what this means to each seeker varies, wildly, but the power of it is in the search, it isn't a gift like a divine boon, it is part of getting closer to the Light. I am not sure what transcending means, maybe the dev's know, but I rather suspect it is not meant to be part of the game world, it is the search that is important, kind of like "The journey is what is important, not the destination." I may be way off on this last bit.I don't think Lightbringers are supposed to be capable of giving up completely, they just keep trying different approaches, your concept could lead to some pretty scary ones.
If you character did no longer seek the light, I am not sure he would still be a Lightbringer. You might try that he is seeking the Light in Darkness. It fits in with your Dark Tapestry theme very well. I am not sure that you wouldn't be setting yourself up for a Corruption masquerading as a Transcendance, but at least it would be interesting concept. I would work with a player/character on this kind of concept.
I would of course expect the character to act accordingly, which with this concept would include some risky and probably insane choices. Not a character headed for a quiet retirement, but likely to have one of the Table Hall of Fame Death Scenes.
Daw, you seem to be reading a LOT more into the trait that is written under it in the race guide. From the limited fluff under it it could easily have NOTHING to do with what you're talking about. For instance, there is a religion trait called Light-Bringer that says "You were born with a blessing of the Dawnflower." So why couldn't the elf ability be the same or similar, AS IT HAD THE SAME NAME!!! It's not an uncommon thing that pathfinder reuses names/words like trait, level, Evangelist [class and achetype], ect.
Now you're free to do what you want it your game but the trait as is doesn't have ALL that baggage you're attributing to it. Everything you expounded on isn't said under the trait and is therefore your assumption only, especially so when there is another trait with the same name that is clearly different and in fact seems to fit better:"literally infused with the radiant power of the heavens" sounds pretty close to "You were born with a blessing of the Dawnflower" while nothing you said fits as well.
So in conclusion, if the Dev's WANTED it to mean everything you put down, they failed miserably as none of that is associated with the trait as written. As written there is no searching needed, no transcendent knowledge wanted or a need to become 'one with the light' and could be a deific boon. As it stands they could be a lazy hermit that sits in a dark cave all day and does nothing and that'd qualify for the trait as it's written. There is no condition for them to lose it's effects as t you inferred.
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(Flavorwise, I might have the granting deity not happy that the penalties were circumvented in such a way, and would work with the player to come up with some good roleplaying.)
I would expect that many (not all) granting deities -- even Evil ones -- would want their followers to be as unhindered as possible, at least up to a point, and would themselves engage in munchkinism to try to circumvent penalties. Thus, some modicum of power balance has to be inherent in the Oracle's Curse feature and/or in some Contract of Creation if deities are going to be granting this, because otherwise an awful lot of them are going to gravitate towards certain combinations that give them more effective followers. Of course, you'd expect this to be even more true of Domains, since unlike Oracle's Curses, those are explicitly always deity-granted (except when druidically granted), but the Domains have more unevenness of quality. Go figure . . . .
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Sigh....
I was going to try and stay out of this, but whatever....
I see a lot of people saying "Oh, the deity/force of nature/generic divine power source would never not give away power for free! This is just a case of evilstupidOPmunchkinry that must be banned/nerfed/reincarnated!"
You know what I have to say to that?
...What? Just, what?
NOWHERE in-universe (or in our universe, for that matter) is there anything that says that oracles must be cursed. That is 100% game text, something given to make Oracles more distinct from Clerics way back in 2010, and nothing more. Why, in all the realms of existence, must a few divine casters be saddled with some debilitating thing that 'hinders' them or 'balances' their power, when no other divine caster in the game has that? The gods are clearly able to grant power without wounding their vessels, by looking at the sheer number (adepts, clerics, druids, inquisitors, paladins, the list goes on) of divine casters wholly unaffected by the divine magic they use. In fact, if you look back at the messageboards from the playtesting/early release of the APG and Oracle class, people were talking about how stupid it was that the oracle even had to have a curse in the first place!
And now we've come full cycle, saying that because an elf has a curse that doesn't 'affect' it, it should be spontaneously reincarnated to 'fix' the cosmic error it presents!
....Guys, I'm not trying to offend anyone, I'm just saying that it is perfectly legitimate to have an Oracle that does not have a curse. In fact, there may come a day when an Oracle archetype is published that doesn't have a curse in the first place. There are a million concepts for an intuitive divine caster that don't involve a hindrance of some sort, so why isn't the player being congratulated for figuring out a way to play their uncursed spontaneous priest in a way that doesn't involve houserules?
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I would expect that many (not all) granting deities -- even Evil ones -- would want their followers to be as unhindered as possible, at least up to a point, and would themselves engage in munchkinism to try to circumvent penalties.{. . .}
(Flavorwise, I might have the granting deity not happy that the penalties were circumvented in such a way, and would work with the player to come up with some good roleplaying.)
This especially true of gods of trickery and such. Does it seem out of place that Asmodeus would find a 'legal loophole' when he's passing out oracle powers? If anything I see that some deities would be quite pleased if someone managed to have "the penalties were circumvented in such a way". Some posters seem to think that the deities are all SUPER lawful and have a checklist of things that they are required to do when they give powers to oracles. While a god of paperwork and mindless following the rules might be this way, I think they'd be in the minority [Lawful is only 1/3rd of the alignments]
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The elf racial trait is a general. All elves, regardless of class, can have that. Oracle curses are *curses*. More over, the way the Oracle text reads, you have been empowered by a GOD. Your racial bonuses be danged, a god can fart and kill an entire continent.
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What a way to go . . . now I've got this vision of resulting strict regulation on the trafficking of beans, chili, and prunes in the Upper Planes . . . .