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Dragon disciple necro?


Advice


Hey, everyone. I've been gone for at least a year, but I'm trying to get back into hearthstone. I finally have a chance at playing my ideal evil character, so I'd love some general character building advice.

Goals: Be survivable/competent in Memer, be able to cast animate dead (or its wordspell equivalent, undeath), and EVENTUALLY (this does not need to come online early or anything, ofc) be able to change into a dragon a couple times per day.

Honestly, the ONLY spell I care about is animate. If there's some way to just get it or undeath and maintain an increasing caster level for it, I'll forgo all other spells. Just need that one ability. For melter, I'd prefer natural weapons (2 levels in ranger, maybe?), but that's not required.

I don't need specific stats, but I really want a character that can change into a dragon (so, dragon disciple unless you have a better idea) while being able to cast animate dead. I don't really care about any other spells but that and maybe command undead.

Preferably arcane, but if you can find the perfect solution with divine magic, then so be it.

Necromancers, arcane magic users, and dragon disciples are my three favorite concepts to play, and I'd LOVE a way to mix them.

The goal is to not be useless in melded while having animate come online at a reasonable level. Actual shapeshifting can come later so long as I have claws/bite to mess around with.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!


Dhampir Cruoromancer Wizard. At level 11, you can cast Shape of the Dragon through spells (one level earlier than 5 Sorc, 7 Dragon Disciple). And you're kinda the best at animating undead. As far as I'm aware, you don't have to take the Necromancy School, so you have some options there.

If you wanted to go a completely different route, you could be a Samsaran Draconic Druid. You can pick another class spell list (Antipaladin, Cleric, Shaman, or the NPC class of Adept), and put some of their spells into your druid casting list...one of which should be Animate Dead. Then you can have zombie minions, a drake companion, and be in dragon form most of the time (at level 10, you're in Form of the Dragon for 20 hours/day. At 12, you're large form, Form of the Dragon II, all day).

Gotta head out now, but may come back to this later.


Mechanical Pear wrote:

Dhampir Cruoromancer Wizard. At level 11, you can cast Shape of the Dragon through spells (one level earlier than 5 Sorc, 7 Dragon Disciple). And you're kinda the best at animating undead. As far as I'm aware, you don't have to take the Necromancy School, so you have some options there.

If you wanted to go a completely different route, you could be a Samsaran Draconic Druid. You can pick another class spell list (Antipaladin, Cleric, Shaman, or the NPC class of Adept), and put some of their spells into your druid casting list...one of which should be Animate Dead. Then you can have zombie minions, a drake companion, and be in dragon form most of the time (at level 10, you're in Form of the Dragon for 20 hours/day. At 12, you're large form, Form of the Dragon II, all day).

Gotta head out now, but may come back to this later.

I think pure wizard would be too squishy for my goals, but I'll definitely look at that Druid archetype; and I haven't even considered samsaran. That definitely broadens my options by quite a bit.

Thank you, and if you do come back to this thread, I'd appreciate any other ideas you have


From the other thread where you asked this -

Quote:

If you're not in PFS, there's the shadow dragon aspect spell as an alternative dragon-shape. I mention this because there's a totally different way of combining necromancy, dragons and the arcane - a skald with the wyrm singer archetype, using spell kenning to cast animate dead or command undead. A skald is a more natural melee type and the wyrm singer abilities include partial dragon shapes. From 10th level shadow dragon aspect will let them turn into a dragon.

Since only one of the rage powers is replaced by the archetype you could pick up the lesser beast totem or lesser draconic blood rage powers for claws if you want those early.


avr wrote:

From the other thread where you asked this -

Quote:

If you're not in PFS, there's the shadow dragon aspect spell as an alternative dragon-shape. I mention this because there's a totally different way of combining necromancy, dragons and the arcane - a skald with the wyrm singer archetype, using spell kenning to cast animate dead or command undead. A skald is a more natural melee type and the wyrm singer abilities include partial dragon shapes. From 10th level shadow dragon aspect will let them turn into a dragon.

Since only one of the rage powers is replaced by the archetype you could pick up the lesser beast totem or lesser draconic blood rage powers for claws if you want those early.

I didn't really expect an answer on that thread, so thanks for bringing this to my attention


Mechanical Pear wrote:

Dhampir Cruoromancer Wizard. At level 11, you can cast Shape of the Dragon through spells (one level earlier than 5 Sorc, 7 Dragon Disciple). And you're kinda the best at animating undead. As far as I'm aware, you don't have to take the Necromancy School, so you have some options there.

If you wanted to go a completely different route, you could be a Samsaran Draconic Druid. You can pick another class spell list (Antipaladin, Cleric, Shaman, or the NPC class of Adept), and put some of their spells into your druid casting list...one of which should be Animate Dead. Then you can have zombie minions, a drake companion, and be in dragon form most of the time (at level 10, you're in Form of the Dragon for 20 hours/day. At 12, you're large form, Form of the Dragon II, all day).

Gotta head out now, but may come back to this later.

+1 on Dhampir Cruoromancer. This is most likely your best route for a necromancer who can also turn into a dragon eventually.

You get Animate Dead 2 levels later than a Cleric, but know that you also get Channel Energy JUST for Commanding Undead, so the 2 levels is still all a Cleric has on you. Meanwhile, the Cleric won't be turning into a dragon, and you get all the Necro-goodies of the Cruoromancer, like controlling up to 5HD of undead per CL instead of 4HD; creating a number of HD of undead per casting of Animate Dead equal to 3x your CL, instead of 2x; never needing to prepare Desecrate; At-will Scrying on your undead minions; plus the invaluable ability to boost your Necr spell DC's.

If you truly wish to be a Dragon Disciple, you could always take a single level in some other spontaneous arcane class, like Bard, Magus, Skald, Sorcerer, Summoner or even Vigilante (Cabalist or Magical Child archetypes). If you ended up going this way, I'd recommend a Bard with the Magician archetype. The Dweomercraft ability you get instead of Inspire Courage seems pretty nifty, and you get Imp Counterspell as a bonus feat instead of the largely useless Countersong. Once you have the ability to spontaneously cast 1st-level Arcane spells, the Prestige Class doesn't care with which arcane-casting class you advance (hint: advance in Wizard).


Witch : Ley Line

Spontaneous casting by INT (and you get a +2 INT for disciple)

Liberty's Edge

As a side note: I've crunched the numbers before, and even with buffs the Form of the Dragon spells don't get you to a very good spot if you go with a normal caster (starting 18 charisma sorcerer or w/e) build. You need some base strength, dexterity and constitution to make Form of the Dragon spells look viable by the time you get there.

I ran the numbers, and if you're some sort of 10 Strength Sorcerer, you can cast as many buff spells as you want (Transformation, Greater Heroism, ect) but you won't get above the "good at killing lots of mooks" tier of dragon melee.

I had a friend that started a Draconic Sorcerer that was shooting to be able to make Form of the Dragon good in PFS once upon a time. The build had Strength 18, Dexterity 14, Constitution 14, Intelligence 7, Wisdom 9, Charisma 14 and was going Sorcerer 6 into Dragon Disciple. By the numbers we ran, it looked like he would be competent in melee at level 11 so long as his strength was something like 30 by then, which he could have hit. He wasn't planning to wear armor: just Mage Armor & natural armor and such were going to be his defenses. Note: the skill requirements to hit Dragon Disciple by level 7 were VERY tight on this build.

That would have been a scary Form of the Dragon user if he had ever gotten to the Seeker levels.

Another valid way to make a normal caster look good as a dragon is to give it Smite Evil or something similar. For a primary caster that's most likely to be able to cast Form of the Dragon, that probably means Aura of Justice abilities or through Bestow Grace of the Champion. It sounds like you are hoping to play an Evil campaign, so that route may not be viable for you, but you could look for something comparable.

If you only want Form of the Dragon to look cool, that's another matter. If you want to use it and be a valid melee combatant, you'll want to look at something focused on it.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

Kobold Bones oracle with Scaled Disciple into Dragon Disciple.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you have access to wordcasting, Oracle with undeath is awesome.

And now there is a Dragon mystery as well (and it is a pretty good one) ....sounds perfect for what you want to me.

I'd just go with Expiramental spellcaster for Undeath, and keep the rest of my casting normal.

I wouldn't go into dragon disciple with this you are already 3/4 bab and d8 so melee isn't out of the question and the mystery gives you plenty of dragon goodies.


Dave Justus wrote:

If you have access to wordcasting, Oracle with undeath is awesome.

And now there is a Dragon mystery as well (and it is a pretty good one) ....sounds perfect for what you want to me.

I'd just go with Expiramental spellcaster for Undeath, and keep the rest of my casting normal.

I wouldn't go into dragon disciple with this you are already 3/4 bab and d8 so melee isn't out of the question and the mystery gives you plenty of dragon goodies.

I'll definitely look at that mystery! It sounds like there's a lot of new dragon content out that I haven't yet seen.


Arillia Kaenath wrote:

As a side note: I've crunched the numbers before, and even with buffs the Form of the Dragon spells don't get you to a very good spot if you go with a normal caster (starting 18 charisma sorcerer or w/e) build. You need some base strength, dexterity and constitution to make Form of the Dragon spells look viable by the time you get there.

I ran the numbers, and if you're some sort of 10 Strength Sorcerer, you can cast as many buff spells as you want (Transformation, Greater Heroism, ect) but you won't get above the "good at killing lots of mooks" tier of dragon melee.

I had a friend that started a Draconic Sorcerer that was shooting to be able to make Form of the Dragon good in PFS once upon a time. The build had Strength 18, Dexterity 14, Constitution 14, Intelligence 7, Wisdom 9, Charisma 14 and was going Sorcerer 6 into Dragon Disciple. By the numbers we ran, it looked like he would be competent in melee at level 11 so long as his strength was something like 30 by then, which he could have hit. He wasn't planning to wear armor: just Mage Armor & natural armor and such were going to be his defenses. Note: the skill requirements to hit Dragon Disciple by level 7 were VERY tight on this build.

That would have been a scary Form of the Dragon user if he had ever gotten to the Seeker levels.

Another valid way to make a normal caster look good as a dragon is to give it Smite Evil or something similar. For a primary caster that's most likely to be able to cast Form of the Dragon, that probably means Aura of Justice abilities or through Bestow Grace of the Champion. It sounds like you are hoping to play an Evil campaign, so that route may not be viable for you, but you could look for something comparable.

If you only want Form of the Dragon to look cool, that's another matter. If you want to use it and be a valid melee combatant, you'll want to look at something focused on it.

Therein lies the issue, yeah. If I just wanted to look cool and raise undead, I could just go straight sorcerer'/wizard. I just want to sacrifice 90% of magic for melee competency.


This thread just gave me an idea for advanced crossblooded ideas. Like some would just be normal crosses, but with some investment (maybe feats or a very broad prestige class like Evangelists) specific combos would unlock new things.

The first idea was undead crossed with draconic for a ravener bloodline.

I'm going to see if I can make any other good combos.

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