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Sorcerer with guns and ranged shocking grasp?


Advice


I've been asked to join a Final Fantasy-inspired Pathfinder game with airships and guns. The "Guns Everywhere" rule is in effect, along with advanced firearms. And it starts at level 1.

I've been thinking about some sort of gun mage for it, but Spellslinger is pretty bad... maybe a Spellslinger 1/Sorcerer mix of some sort too, though I'm not sure if other spells feed the Spellslinger powers.

In any case, I had the idea of a simple Arcane bloodline sorcerer whose arcane bond is a revolver. Masterwork, +1 to hit, only needs infrequent reloading, a good way to fill out turns between casting, and it can "fire" spells as a special effect.

The Stormborn bloodline had an interesting ability but it'd mean no arcane bond, so I came up with this idea: Ranged shocking grasp on the gun.

Magical Lineage and Reach Spell to make Shocking Grasp a short ranged touch attack. Cast it one round, then make a firearms attack the next. They're both ranged touch attacks, so they stack correct?


There are quite a few good options with the Guns Everywhere rule in effect. If you're looking at Shocking Grasp through a firearm in particular, the Magus with the Eldritch Archer archetype is your best bet. Eldritch Arhcer lets you use spellstrike and spell combat with ranged weapons, including firearms. Take one level of Gunslinger to get gun training then stick with Magus for the rest of your career.

If you want to use the Spellslinger, it actually becomes a very good archetype with Guns Everywhere rules. Again, take one level of Gunslinger for gun training, then 5 levels of Spellslinger Wizard, then enter the Eldritch Knight prestige class. The Mage Bullets class feature combined with Gun Training can bolster firearm damage into the stratosphere. With wizard spellcasting to back it up, it's a very well-rounded and powerful build.

The Spellslinger 1 / Sorcerer X build is one of those builds that works, but not very well. If it's what you want to do then it's playable but clunky. The archetype is slow to get going, so I would recommend only taking your Spellslinger level some time around level 7 or so. Shocking Grasp isn't a great spell option for the Spellslinger; it works with reach spell, but you want to use Magical Lineage on something better than this. The Dragon Breath spell or Cone of Cold spells are great for Spellslingers, since cone effects work well for you. Alternately Scorching Ray can be used for a ranged touch attack spell that's a low-level metamagic candidate.

If you want an arcane bond with the Stormborn archetype, you can use the Eldritch Heritage feat to grab some abilities from another bloodline.


Thanks, there were some things I hadn't considered there.

The Spellslinger's Gunsmithing was something I wondered about for Guns Everywhere. The Gunslinger gets it replaced with Gun Training, shouldn't the Spellslinger as well, since the feat has greatly reduced value, and the Spellslinger gets the special bonuses of the Gunsmithing Feat just like the Gunslinger?


i would sugest 3 levels in trench fighter or 5 levels in gunslinger then rest eldritch archer so you can get dex to damage as well


Wheeljack wrote:
The Spellslinger's Gunsmithing was something I wondered about for Guns Everywhere. The Gunslinger gets it replaced with Gun Training, shouldn't the Spellslinger as well, since the feat has greatly reduced value, and the Spellslinger gets the special bonuses of the Gunsmithing Feat just like the Gunslinger?

That's a call for your GM.

If you're aiming for Eldritch Knight it doesn't matter much, since you'll need at least 1 level in a class that grants proficiency with all martial weapons. Being able to use a different class other than Gunslinger for that doesn't have a major effect on the build.

Lady-J wrote:
i would sugest 3 levels in trench fighter or 5 levels in gunslinger then rest eldritch archer so you can get dex to damage as well

They're using the Guns Everywhere alternate rules. Gunslingers get Gun Training at 1st level under those rules.


Dasrak wrote:
Wheeljack wrote:
The Spellslinger's Gunsmithing was something I wondered about for Guns Everywhere. The Gunslinger gets it replaced with Gun Training, shouldn't the Spellslinger as well, since the feat has greatly reduced value, and the Spellslinger gets the special bonuses of the Gunsmithing Feat just like the Gunslinger?

That's a call for your GM.

If you're aiming for Eldritch Knight it doesn't matter much, since you'l need at least 1 level in a class that grants proficiency with all martial weapons. This doesn't change the build very much.

Lady-J wrote:
i would sugest 3 levels in trench fighter or 5 levels in gunslinger then rest eldritch archer so you can get dex to damage as well
They're using the Guns Everywhere alternate rules. Gunslingers get Gun Training at 1st level under those rules.

really i though that just made it so every one got free proficiency


Lady-J wrote:
really i though that just made it so every one got free proficiency

Guns and ammunition have a 90% discount, are treated as simple weapons, and the Gunslinger gains the Gun Training class feature at the 1st level.

These rules do live up to their name; guns really will be everywhere if you run them. Spellslinger/Eldritch Knight and Eldritch Archer are both pretty wicked under these rules; I've been playing around with these builds a bit lately, and guns everywhere rules really push them over the edge.


Eldritch archer eventually gets an Arcana to shoot Shocking Grasps.


Checked with the DM, who said that a Spellslinger will get Gun Training, so that's dex to damage at level 1.

There's something I wanted to check on. If you cast Magic Weapon on your gun, could you then sacrifice another spell to add Shock or Flaming or another +1 grade enhancement onto it via Mage Bullets?

You could do that at level 1 and shoot your rifle for 1d10+1d6+ 3 or 4 from Dex every turn.


Weird one. but I did it.
Well, My Gm allowed crossblooded and wyld blooded to work together.

Sorcerer Draconic (I like acid, but lightning in your case) crossblooded with the wyld one that put INT casting instead of Cha.
First feat :ameatur gunslinger" getting Dead Eye.
Lv 2 being Siege Gunner for Int to grit.
lv 3+ Sorcerer again,
Until you can take Dragon Disciple.

These two weren't out when I had done this in the past but
"prestigious spell caster" i think it is called? It lets you "fill" the missing caster improvements from that prestige class.
and "blood line mutations" i think they're called.. That oen lets you switch out some of the bloodline stuff for some spell buffs if you'd like.

Ended up with a durable, decently skilled gunner.

----
Though if your GM doesn't jive with the wyld crossblooded. you can easily do it straight up draconic with Cha, and standard gunslinger. My game was only 3 players so we liked having wide design space.

Though if you're getting Dex to damage at base, you really don't need the gunslinger at all actually.
So toss out all the gunslinger stuff I mentioned actually.

Well you've more or less got your idea set but I figured I might as well toss this out anyway. It felt very FF in my game


I try to always make the build as simple as possible from the start. With Guns Everywhere in play, why need spellslinger or gunslinger at all? I'd go Eldritch Archer from the start - it's the 'right' way to deliver spells with a ranged weapon.


Wheeljack wrote:
Checked with the DM, who said that a Spellslinger will get Gun Training, so that's dex to damage at level 1.

Very nice; that's going to give you a lot more flexibility. If you choose to stay single-class Spellslinger you'll have a decent attack (although your low BAB means it will fall behind at higher level) and if you choose Eldritch Knight then you're free to use a different class other than Gunslinger.

Quote:
There's something I wanted to check on. If you cast Magic Weapon on your gun, could you then sacrifice another spell to add Shock or Flaming or another +1 grade enhancement onto it via Mage Bullets?

You could add shock, but not another +1 grade. The Mage Bullets class feature doesn't say it stacks with other enhancement bonuses so it doesn't, but you're free to add other abilities that do stack.

Quote:
You could do that at level 1 and shoot your rifle for 1d10+1d6+ 3 or 4 from Dex every turn.

Don't forget the +1 enhancement bonus from the Magic Weapon spell. This will only get better at higher levels, and is part of what makes the Eldritch Knight so appealing in your situation.

The Magus can do something similar, although you'll need to be a Magus 5 / Gunslinger 1 before this particular combo comes online. The Spellslinger can do this immediately from the 1st level.

CraziFuzzy wrote:
With Guns Everywhere in play, why need spellslinger or gunslinger at all? I'd go Eldritch Archer from the start - it's the 'right' way to deliver spells with a ranged weapon.

Eldritch Archer and Spellslinger/Eldritch Knight play very differently. I definitely agree that the Eldritch Archer is the best option if you want to shoot Shocking Grasps out of your gun, but if you just want magical buffs in general the Spellslinger/Eldritch Knight is the better option. Mage Bullets grants better enhancements then the Arcane Pool and you get 9th level spellcasting as opposed to 6th level spellcasting.

Zwordsman wrote:

Sorcerer Draconic (I like acid, but lightning in your case) crossblooded with the wyld one that put INT casting instead of Cha.

First feat :ameatur gunslinger" getting Dead Eye.
Lv 2 being Siege Gunner for Int to grit.
lv 3+ Sorcerer again,
Until you can take Dragon Disciple.

A better option would be to stay with charisma-based spellcasting and go with the Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger. It's a bit intensive on the grit and your swift action economy, but cha-to-damage is incredibly good for a Sorcerer. Given that you're a ranged character I'd go Eldritch Knight over Dragon Disciple for better BAB.


I do like a simple build... four different classes feels kind of awkward to me.

Eldritch Archer has a lot to recommend it, but it can't enhance bullets with qualities until level 5, while the Spellslinger can do it at level one.

Since it's a game starting at level 1, the front-loading does speak to me, and the mage bullets + enchanted weapon spell combo would be more impressive than anything a Magus could pull off early on.

With only 2 spell slots, there'll be a lot more shooting than casting. Though I guess the Eldritch Archer could fire cantrips on top of bullets all the time.

Edit: And I'm not married to the idea of just Shocking Grasps or shock bullets, that just seemed the easiest way to do a magical damage boost on a firearm from my quick survey.


Wheeljack wrote:
I do like a simple build... four different classes feels kind of awkward to me.

You wouldn't use four classes. You'd take Spellslinger Wizard for 5 levels, then take 1 level of Fighter (or a similar class of your choosing) then move on to the Eldritch Knight prestige class. Three classes, and one of them you're only taking a single level of for weapon proficiency. It's a pretty straightforward build thanks to getting Gun Training. That's not to say you have to do it, but I wouldn't be intimidated by a tiny bit of multiclassing.

If you want your Mage Bullets to continue to be effective at higher levels, you will need the BAB increase offered by the Eldritch Knight, and you do need to multiclass to qualify for EK.

Wheeljack wrote:

With only 2 spell slots, there'll be a lot more shooting than casting. Though I guess the Eldritch Archer could fire cantrips on top of bullets all the time.

Edit: And I'm not married to the idea of just Shocking Grasps or shock bullets, that just seemed the easiest way to do a magical damage boost on a firearm from my quick survey.

You've narrowed down on what are, in my opinion, the two strongest options for your character. The key advantage of the Eldritch Archer is the ability to cast spells through his firearm via spell combat and ranged spellstrike, and is much more fluid for a "cast and fight at the same time" style of play. The Spellslinger is less graceful, but brings more raw power to the table. Mage Bullets comes online sooner and scales faster, and his spellcasting is significantly more powerful than what a Magus gets.

Either way you do want to multiclass. The Eldritch Archer would appreciate one level in Gunslinger for Gun Training, while the Spellslinger gains a lot and loses almost nothing from the Eldritch Knight prestige class.


Did anyone else read this as soccer with guns?


Knight who says Meh wrote:
Did anyone else read this as soccer with guns?

LOL THAT kind of 'football' I might watch. ;)

Dasrak: he wouldn't need a level of fighter, just a class that gets all martial weapons. For instance, a level of vigilante can boost skills nicely. Savage Technologist Barbarian gives a rage that boosts Str/Dex and wouldn't stop magic bullet use. Gunslinger gives 1st level deeds. Slayer has studied target and skills. You can even think out of the box and take Ravener Hunter Inquisitor/oracle and take a revelation for "Skill at Arms (Ex): You gain proficiency in all martial weapons and heavy armor" and access to divine magic [wands and stuff].


As far as Eldritch Knight multi classing for the Spellslinger, Eldritch Archer gives all martial weapons as far as I can see. It'd give a bonded weapon and the Arcane pool would work with the Mage Bullets, saving spell levels from that for the shock and other effects.

Is there something I'm missing?


graystone wrote:
Dasrak: he wouldn't need a level of fighter, just a class that gets all martial weapons.

That's exactly what I said ("or similar class of your choosing"). Any class that provides proficiency with all marital weapons will fit the bill. Fighter is just the placeholder, and a decent option if you find yourself short on feats.

Wheeljack wrote:
As far as Eldritch Knight multi classing for the Spellslinger, Eldritch Archer gives all martial weapons as far as I can see.

That would work, and would get you Ranged Spellstrike, although it would hurt your base attack bonus and saddle you with the bonded weapon. Definitely an option, and it's up to you whether you think that's worth it.

Wheeljack wrote:
It'd give a bonded weapon and the Arcane pool would work with the Mage Bullets, saving spell levels from that for the shock and other effects.

The bonded weapon is actually a downside, not a benefit. Your spells have a very high chance of failure if you attempt to cast them without your bonded weapon equipped. This means if you get disarmed you're completely screwed. This can also bite you on surprise rounds and in social situations, and can be problematic in situations where you need a free hand. The Spellslinger's Arcane Gun does not function like a bonded weapon and does not have these downsides.

Because you're only taking one level of Magus, your arcane pool never improves beyond its 1st level benefits. You only ever get +1 enhancement bonus. This doesn't compensate for losing a point of base attack bonus over what you'd get by going with a full BAB class.

Again, this is definitely an option. However, the attraction here is Ranged Spellstrike. Everything else is neutral at best.


Wheeljack wrote:

I do like a simple build... four different classes feels kind of awkward to me.

Eldritch Archer has a lot to recommend it, but it can't enhance bullets with qualities until level 5, while the Spellslinger can do it at level one.

Since it's a game starting at level 1, the front-loading does speak to me, and the mage bullets + enchanted weapon spell combo would be more impressive than anything a Magus could pull off early on.

With only 2 spell slots, there'll be a lot more shooting than casting. Though I guess the Eldritch Archer could fire cantrips on top of bullets all the time.

Edit: And I'm not married to the idea of just Shocking Grasps or shock bullets, that just seemed the easiest way to do a magical damage boost on a firearm from my quick survey.

The early benefits aren't as useful as they might first appear.

Burning very limited low level spells to get the +1 to your weapon is okay, but honestly, Magic Weapon ends up being better (duration). magic Bullets are nice, but spells are better used through Arcane Gun, or Ranged Spellstrike. Arcane Pool is the analog of the Magic Bullets, but gets to use a completely separate resource, so it complements Ranges Spellstrike, instead of conflicting like Mage Bullets and Arcane Gun do.


I'd definitely go with an Eldritch Archer, if I was playing for the early game. You don't have enough slots to blow as a wizard/sorcerer for it to be worth it until 5th level or so, and even then...

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