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Are my PCs hitting too often?


Advice

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I'm a first time GM running RotRL AP with some friends. We are nearing the end of book 4 and they have now reached level 12. The group consists of 3 martials and 2 spell casters. The martial characters are the ones I'm interested in. At this point, it seems that the only time they even have a chance to miss is their last attack in a full round attack. Certainly aren't missing on their first attack. Is this expected for this level of characters? To give some numbers:

-I'm already putting the advance template on the creatures they're facing. This is putting the average AC to somewhere around ~25-30 depending on the creature
-The players attack bonuses are (raging Barb: 27/22/17), (Swash: 20/15), (Slayer: 21/16/11)

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is if I should be adjusting the encounters more because they obliterate monsters due to always hitting, or if this is just how the encounters are supposed to be? Or maybe there is something else entirely that I'm missing.


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Scamperbaby wrote:

At this point, it seems that the only time they even have a chance to miss is their last attack in a full round attack. Certainly aren't missing on their first attack.

Average AC to somewhere around ~25-30 depending on the creature

attack bonuses are (raging Barb: 27/22/17), (Swash: 20/15), (Slayer: 21/16/11)

Against AC of 30, the Swashbuckler should be hitting around 55% of the time on the first attack, and 30% on the second. The slayer gets 60%, 35%, 10%.

That seems a long way short of a guaranteed hit every time. Are they generally buffed on top of those numbers?


The Barbarian will hit a lot more than the other two. But, as Matthew Downie said, they're either buffed, or have very favorable dice rolls.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That is more or less what is expected as you get higher in level. Typically the first attack is a sure thing, your second attack is probably more or less similar in chance of hitting as your only attack was when you were first level, and your last attack is probably 50/50 or slightly worse than that.

If you think about it, if the first attack was 50/50, the third attack would require a natural 20 to hit, if that was the intent, why even bother to give a third attack at that point?

As far as whether you should adjust the encounters, the primary question is is everyone having fun. If your players are bored because it is too easy then adjust, if they are loving crushing their enemies easily then don't (of course your enjoyment is important in the question as well.)

Personally I find that the advanced simple template is pretty good for adjusting from the baseline totally unoptimized PCs Paizo seems to design for and the somewhat optimized PCs my players actually play. If your group has a similar level of optimization then I expect that adjusts fine for that, but you also have 5 instead of the expected 4 PCs. Upping the number of foes by about 25% would compensate for that and might make the fights closer to the challenge level you desire.

I don't use XP points, just giving out levels as appropriate as the story advances (especially great for running an AP) but if you do you will have to calculate the XP of encounters as well, and make sure that they aren't getting too much ahead of where they should be.


At level 12 it is pretty much expected that a full martial should be able to hit an AC of 30 on a 2 or better on their 1st attack.

Just off the top of my head, my wife's gnome barbarian had the following weapon profile while unbuffed.

+32/+23/+18 (2d6+34/19-20/x3)

So 95%/70%/45% vs a 30 AC

And that is as a titan mauler using an oversized weapon. A fighter, ranger, or baseline barbarian would be more accurate.


A lot of times they have haste, blessing of fervor, or bless so it could be +1 or +2 more depending. I put 30 as part of the range because they will occasionally find a monster with an AC that high. But I would say most of creatures are on the lower end of the range (off the cuff numbers just by looking at some of their recent and upcoming encounters).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Matthew Downie wrote:

Against AC of 30, the Swashbuckler should be hitting around 55% of the time on the first attack, and 30% on the second. The slayer gets 60%, 35%, 10%.

That seems a long way short of a guaranteed hit every time. Are they generally buffed on top of those numbers?

The enemy ACs are 25-30. Against the 25 case, the first hits go to 80% and 85% respectively. Against the middle of that range it is still well over half the time for the first hit. I would also expect that the swash and slayer often flank together, upping their odds without any other external buffs. With two casters, I would expect some additional buffs as well.

Certainly it is likely, when coupled with the barbs really pretty much sure thing on the first swing, to give the impression that they rarely miss on their first attack.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Yes, a default fighter with no gear or feats has an primary attack bonus that gives about a 50% chance of hitting CR appropriate AC.

CR 12 average AC is 27, so 25-30 is the right range.

a fighter with 18 str from start and never increasing it has a to hit of 12+4+2 = +18, needing a 9 to hit the average AC with their first attack.

Throw in a +3 sword, WF and GWF, and a +2 str belt and you're now at +24 to hit needing a 3 to hit with your first attack.

So yes, Martial characters are supposed to be hitting things, often and for a lot of damage.

AC moves from trying to block the first attack to trying to block the iterative attacks as it doesn't scale like attack rolls do. But enemy HP usually increases far faster than the damage, meaning to do proportionally the same damage to an enemy you need more of your hits to land. Enemies get about 15 HP per level, and players aren't getting anywhere near that amount of damage per level.


As Snowlilly points out, hitting most of the time should be expected.

I personally don't think there's such a thing as martials being too accurate, but I agree with Dave Justus - the most important question is if they're having fun.


Sounds like I'm on the right track then and their numbers are to be expected. To your point Dave, yes I have also been following a chart I found for CR to adjust the encounter due to having 5 PCs instead of 4, most of the time it results in adding one more creature to deal with.

I was worried I was going from one extreme of encounters being too easy "out of the box" to the other of encounter too difficult (trying to get over the "fear" of killing a PC due to me adjusting the encounter). But based on the comments here it sounds like I'm not too far out of line by applying the advanced template. Thanks everyone


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Scamperbaby wrote:
trying to get over the "fear" of killing a PC due to me adjusting the encounter

The first time is the worst, after that it gets easier

eventually you start to enjoy it.....


that's a fairly low to hit at level 12 i usually have a +15-20 by level 6 when playing a martial.

Shadow Lodge

That's the system working as expected. AC at that level is for blocking iteratives.


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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Lady-J,
Your comparison's aren't usually helpful since you play a game very different from most people. As shown in the other thread your games run at about 3x the normal power range for characters.

And it's especially not helpful if you don't show how you're getting your "insane" numbers.

The Exchange

Scamperbaby wrote:

I'm a first time GM running RotRL AP with some friends. We are nearing the end of book 4 and they have now reached level 12. The group consists of 3 martials and 2 spell casters. The martial characters are the ones I'm interested in. At this point, it seems that the only time they even have a chance to miss is their last attack in a full round attack. Certainly aren't missing on their first attack. Is this expected for this level of characters? To give some numbers:

-I'm already putting the advance template on the creatures they're facing. This is putting the average AC to somewhere around ~25-30 depending on the creature
-The players attack bonuses are (raging Barb: 27/22/17), (Swash: 20/15), (Slayer: 21/16/11)

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is if I should be adjusting the encounters more because they obliterate monsters due to always hitting, or if this is just how the encounters are supposed to be? Or maybe there is something else entirely that I'm missing.

To give you a comparison, against my lvl 11 group my GM decided to throw a Curveball at us and send an AC 41 creature at our predominately martial group, and then proceeded to get a little frustrated that even that only lasted 2.5 rounds. Between buffs, flank bonuses, and a Trip Master build that knocked him prone pretty easily, as a party we needed on the average a 15+ to hit him while prone and 19-20 to hit him standing. Without the bonuses in play we were pretty much all only hitting on NAT 20. But still when the creature stands there toe to toe and you have 3 melee, an Eidelon and a summoned creature swinging at it, you're getting plenty of changes per round to roll well.


Question -
Are your monsters hitting yhe PCs?

If the answer is 'yes', everything is working as it should. AC always scales slower then the bonus 'to hit'.

The real trick is your smart monsters need to play smart. Have them try to avoid Full Attacks from the PCs. Dumb monster play, well, dumb.

Also, most Adventure Paths are designed for 4 players with 15 point buy.
Stronger and more characters does change the balance.


Matt2VK wrote:

Question -

Are your monsters hitting yhe PCs?

If the answer is 'yes', everything is working as it should. AC always scales slower then the bonus 'to hit'.

The real trick is your smart monsters need to play smart. Have them try to avoid Full Attacks from the PCs. Dumb monster play, well, dumb.

Also, most Adventure Paths are designed for 4 players with 15 point buy.
Stronger and more characters does change the balance.

The monsters don't have a guaranteed hit on their first attack but I suppose they have been getting their shots in.

The biggest problem in avoiding full attacks has been the barbarian has pounce and a flying carpet making it difficult in a lot of scenarios.

If I could go back I would do a point buy system, instead we did a 4d6 x 7 dropping the lowest die and the lowest group. This has resulted in some beefy characters.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

barbs are HP killing machines. Does he have Come and Get me yet to attack first when enemies are attacking him?

Barbs are one of the top of the line martials, they do the job of killing things well, mainly because of pounce letting them full attack a lot.

Did the swash multiclass? he should have 3 attacks like the others.
And yes, you're also see why some martials aren't as good as the barb because of no pounce.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

If you want you could always apply the advanced template again to the enemies, seems like it'd still keep them in the right threat range.


I'd probably just add one or two more monsters to help balance out the power level. If feeling like giving them a real challenge, a caster with some long duration protection spells on them.


Yeah swash multiclassed so he won't get 3 attacks until next level.


Chess Pwn wrote:

Lady-J,

Your comparison's aren't usually helpful since you play a game very different from most people. As shown in the other thread your games run at about 3x the normal power range for characters.

And it's especially not helpful if you don't show how you're getting your "insane" numbers.

+6 from bab +6 from str=12 +3 from weapon training and +1 from weapon focus will get a fighter +16 at level 6 add in +2 from the weapon and you have +18 and thats just a flat fighter nothing else added onto it other than a +2 str belt a +2 weapon and gloves of dueling so no nothing special about it if it where i would of added in atleast another +5-8 somewhere


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Lady-J wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

Lady-J,

Your comparison's aren't usually helpful since you play a game very different from most people. As shown in the other thread your games run at about 3x the normal power range for characters.

And it's especially not helpful if you don't show how you're getting your "insane" numbers.

+6 from bab +6 from str=12 +3 from weapon training and +1 from weapon focus will get a fighter +16 at level 6 add in +2 from the weapon and you have +18 and thats just a flat fighter nothing else added onto it other than a +2 str belt a +2 weapon and gloves of dueling so no nothing special about it if it where i would of added in atleast another +5-8 somewhere

Well there is the problem. A level 6 character should have 16,000 wealth by level. The gloves alone are 15,000. The belt is 4,000, the weapon is 8,300.

So assuming no other gear you are 170% of your budget.


MichaelCullen wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

Lady-J,

Your comparison's aren't usually helpful since you play a game very different from most people. As shown in the other thread your games run at about 3x the normal power range for characters.

And it's especially not helpful if you don't show how you're getting your "insane" numbers.

+6 from bab +6 from str=12 +3 from weapon training and +1 from weapon focus will get a fighter +16 at level 6 add in +2 from the weapon and you have +18 and thats just a flat fighter nothing else added onto it other than a +2 str belt a +2 weapon and gloves of dueling so no nothing special about it if it where i would of added in atleast another +5-8 somewhere

Well there is the problem. A level 6 character should have 16,000 wealth by level. The gloves alone are 15,000. The belt is 4,000, the weapon is 8,300.

So assuming no other gear you are 170% of your budget.

crafting gear reduces cost by 50% so the gloves are 7500 the belt is 2000 the weapon is around 4000 for a total of 13500 and you have money left for some defense items


Lady-J wrote:
MichaelCullen wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

Lady-J,

Your comparison's aren't usually helpful since you play a game very different from most people. As shown in the other thread your games run at about 3x the normal power range for characters.

And it's especially not helpful if you don't show how you're getting your "insane" numbers.

+6 from bab +6 from str=12 +3 from weapon training and +1 from weapon focus will get a fighter +16 at level 6 add in +2 from the weapon and you have +18 and thats just a flat fighter nothing else added onto it other than a +2 str belt a +2 weapon and gloves of dueling so no nothing special about it if it where i would of added in atleast another +5-8 somewhere

Well there is the problem. A level 6 character should have 16,000 wealth by level. The gloves alone are 15,000. The belt is 4,000, the weapon is 8,300.

So assuming no other gear you are 170% of your budget.

crafting gear reduces cost by 50% so the gloves are 7500 the belt is 2000 the weapon is around 4000 for a total of 13500 and you have money left for some defense items

Because every GM allows crafting, and gives you ample time to craft all the items for yourself and your party members, right?

That's also assuming that PCs in your party taking crafting feats, which, depending on their playstyle, and whether the GM permits the feats in the first place, is hardly a guarantee.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
MichaelCullen wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

Lady-J,

Your comparison's aren't usually helpful since you play a game very different from most people. As shown in the other thread your games run at about 3x the normal power range for characters.

And it's especially not helpful if you don't show how you're getting your "insane" numbers.

+6 from bab +6 from str=12 +3 from weapon training and +1 from weapon focus will get a fighter +16 at level 6 add in +2 from the weapon and you have +18 and thats just a flat fighter nothing else added onto it other than a +2 str belt a +2 weapon and gloves of dueling so no nothing special about it if it where i would of added in atleast another +5-8 somewhere

Well there is the problem. A level 6 character should have 16,000 wealth by level. The gloves alone are 15,000. The belt is 4,000, the weapon is 8,300.

So assuming no other gear you are 170% of your budget.

crafting gear reduces cost by 50% so the gloves are 7500 the belt is 2000 the weapon is around 4000 for a total of 13500 and you have money left for some defense items

Because every GM allows crafting, and gives you ample time to craft all the items for yourself and your party members, right?

That's also assuming that PCs in your party taking crafting feats, which, depending on their playstyle, and whether the GM permits the feats in the first place, is hardly a guarantee.

the fighter can take the feats himself


Lady-J wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
MichaelCullen wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

Lady-J,

Your comparison's aren't usually helpful since you play a game very different from most people. As shown in the other thread your games run at about 3x the normal power range for characters.

And it's especially not helpful if you don't show how you're getting your "insane" numbers.

+6 from bab +6 from str=12 +3 from weapon training and +1 from weapon focus will get a fighter +16 at level 6 add in +2 from the weapon and you have +18 and thats just a flat fighter nothing else added onto it other than a +2 str belt a +2 weapon and gloves of dueling so no nothing special about it if it where i would of added in atleast another +5-8 somewhere

Well there is the problem. A level 6 character should have 16,000 wealth by level. The gloves alone are 15,000. The belt is 4,000, the weapon is 8,300.

So assuming no other gear you are 170% of your budget.

crafting gear reduces cost by 50% so the gloves are 7500 the belt is 2000 the weapon is around 4000 for a total of 13500 and you have money left for some defense items

Because every GM allows crafting, and gives you ample time to craft all the items for yourself and your party members, right?

That's also assuming that PCs in your party taking crafting feats, which, depending on their playstyle, and whether the GM permits the feats in the first place, is hardly a guarantee.

the fighter can take the feats himself

Really? Does he have the proper feat slots for it? Because you can't spend bonus feats on them, which means any time before 3rd level, he can't because he doesn't have a high enough Caster Level for the feats, so the odds of him taking the feat while having things like Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and so on, are slim.

And that's assuming he has a Caster Level, which he doesn't. So then he can't craft anything until he takes the Master Craftsman feat, which requires 5 Skill Ranks in a Craft or Profession, which can't be acquired legally until 5th level. And even then, it only applies to a specific Craft skill (which means you can't blanket-craft via Spellcraft), and can only be taken once, ever, which means its benefits are limited.

So, regardless of how you try to justify your claim of applicability, you're still too highly-powered for what a majority of players and GMs expect, which means your experience is an outlier compared to the rest and therefore not exactly helpful for those who play games different from yours.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
MichaelCullen wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

Lady-J,

Your comparison's aren't usually helpful since you play a game very different from most people. As shown in the other thread your games run at about 3x the normal power range for characters.

And it's especially not helpful if you don't show how you're getting your "insane" numbers.

+6 from bab +6 from str=12 +3 from weapon training and +1 from weapon focus will get a fighter +16 at level 6 add in +2 from the weapon and you have +18 and thats just a flat fighter nothing else added onto it other than a +2 str belt a +2 weapon and gloves of dueling so no nothing special about it if it where i would of added in atleast another +5-8 somewhere

Well there is the problem. A level 6 character should have 16,000 wealth by level. The gloves alone are 15,000. The belt is 4,000, the weapon is 8,300.

So assuming no other gear you are 170% of your budget.

crafting gear reduces cost by 50% so the gloves are 7500 the belt is 2000 the weapon is around 4000 for a total of 13500 and you have money left for some defense items

Because every GM allows crafting, and gives you ample time to craft all the items for yourself and your party members, right?

That's also assuming that PCs in your party taking crafting feats, which, depending on their playstyle, and whether the GM permits the feats in the first place, is hardly a guarantee.

the fighter can take the feats himself

Really? Does he have the proper feat slots for it? Because you can't spend bonus feats on them, which means any time before 3rd level, he can't because he doesn't have a high enough Caster Level for the feats, so the odds of him taking the feat while having things like Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and so on, are slim.

And that's assuming he has a Caster Level, which he doesn't. So then he can't craft anything until he takes the...

retraining is a thing


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I have numbers for you. Generally, PCs should be around green, and definitely not more than blue, on this chart at any given level. (Within reason, of course. For example, Wizards who don't target enemies generally don't need to care about to-hit.) Blue is basically the point at which a character, math-wise, can reasonably be considered too strong for their level. You can read the blog post linked at the top of the chart for a more in-depth explanation.


GM Rednal wrote:
I have numbers for you. Generally, PCs should be around green, and definitely not more than blue, on this chart at any given level. Blue is basically the point at which a character, math-wise, can reasonably be considered too strong for their level. You can read the blog post linked at the top of the chart for a more in-depth explanation.

what the heck is edv?


Expected Damage Value. Basically, the average damage you're actually doing with your attacks. Calculating it is fairly involved, but not so hard once you know how to do it.


5 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Lady-J,
You need to realize that your game advice is SO far off balance compared to everyone else game that anything you say is basically useless.

Being able to craft ALL your gear is just absurd. Your stats are absurd, everything about your game is in the highest levels available in the game and is thus absurd.

If you want your advice to be relevant and useful, assume something like a 20pt buy, and not getting a discount on any gear.


Chess Pwn wrote:

Lady-J,

You need to realize that your game advice is SO far off balance compared to everyone else game that anything you say is basically useless.

Being able to craft ALL your gear is just absurd. Your stats are absurd, everything about your game is in the highest levels available in the game and is thus absurd.

If you want your advice to be relevant and useful, assume something like a 20pt buy, and not getting a discount on any gear.

you can have a 20 in a stat with even a 10 point buy so not absurd at all and no crafting gear is usually only in pfs which is terrible anyways so no loss there either


Crafting guidelines do not say double WBL in any case. They suggest a +25% boost for 1 crafting feat, and +50% for multiple crafting feats.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Crafting guidelines do not say double WBL in any case. They suggest a +25% boost for 1 crafting feat, and +50% for multiple crafting feats.

guidelines, piece of advice not a strict rule that must be followed plus it also stats the more investment you make the more you can take off and add your your worth and a fighter doing crafting invents a lot more than a wizard


3 people marked this as a favorite.

But if you don't follow the guidelines when everybody else is asumed to be doing it, your advice is not going to be very useful.
You play a very different version of the game from what most people here is playing, so many things that you say arent applicable to most games.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Yeah, but existing as guidelines for a reason. Doubling your WBL is a lot like getting an extra level, and can quickly throw off the math-based expectations of the game.

...

Of course, that's not inherently wrong if your table can compensate for it. It's just important to differentiate between your house rules and the generally more common rules people asking for help online are probably using.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Lady-J wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

Lady-J,

You need to realize that your game advice is SO far off balance compared to everyone else game that anything you say is basically useless.

Being able to craft ALL your gear is just absurd. Your stats are absurd, everything about your game is in the highest levels available in the game and is thus absurd.

If you want your advice to be relevant and useful, assume something like a 20pt buy, and not getting a discount on any gear.

you can have a 20 in a stat with even a 10 point buy so not absurd at all and no crafting gear is usually only in pfs which is terrible anyways so no loss there either

While a 20 IS possible on a 10pt, a character that hopes to survive will NOT be pulling a 20 in STR. Cause that would be a 20/10/11/7/10/7. Starting with a 20 str on a 20 pt buy is 20/12/15/7/12/7 so manageable. But your stats in total are absurd, not just having a max'd stat.

And comboing that with only paying 50% for ALL gear, and everything else you have in your game ends with a total of it being absurd.

I've not seen crafting available in any games I've heard of personally, and from people talking on the boards it's a fairly rare to be allowed. But it's especially not allowed on the level you have of being able to craft ALL THE GEAR OF THE ENTIRE PARTY.


GM Rednal wrote:

Yeah, but existing as guidelines for a reason. Doubling your WBL is a lot like getting an extra level, and can quickly throw off the math-based expectations of the game.

...

Of course, that's not inherently wrong if your table can compensate for it. It's just important to differentiate between your house rules and the generally more common rules people asking for help online are using.

the "guidelines" you are quoting stat +25% per feat used for crafting so 4 feats worth is +100% bonus wealth so its in full standards of "normal" play fighter uses 3 feats and 2 traits to be able to craft items with any decency 2 traits are equivalent to 1 feat there for a fighter that is able to craft gets the +100% boost a wizard can do the same thing and requires less of an investment and gets more things to craft as well, plus martials are both inherently not as powerful and are more MAD than casters so a martial getting a large boost in wealth is significantly less impactful than a wizard just being a wizard doing wizard stuff you could quadruple a martial's wealth and it probably wouldn't surpass a wizard at higher levels


Chess Pwn wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

Lady-J,

You need to realize that your game advice is SO far off balance compared to everyone else game that anything you say is basically useless.

Being able to craft ALL your gear is just absurd. Your stats are absurd, everything about your game is in the highest levels available in the game and is thus absurd.

If you want your advice to be relevant and useful, assume something like a 20pt buy, and not getting a discount on any gear.

you can have a 20 in a stat with even a 10 point buy so not absurd at all and no crafting gear is usually only in pfs which is terrible anyways so no loss there either

While a 20 IS possible on a 10pt, a character that hopes to survive will NOT be pulling a 20 in STR. Cause that would be a 20/10/11/7/10/7. Starting with a 20 str on a 20 pt buy is 20/12/15/7/12/7 so manageable. But your stats in total are absurd, not just having a max'd stat.

And comboing that with only paying 50% for ALL gear, and everything else you have in your game ends with a total of it being absurd.

I've not seen crafting available in any games I've heard of personally, and from people talking on the boards it's a fairly rare to be allowed. But it's especially not allowed on the level you have of being able to craft ALL THE GEAR OF THE ENTIRE PARTY.

who said the crafter crafts for the entire party if you want crafted gear you invest in crafting and craft it yourself and its not on all gear its only on gear you have the ability to craft at 50% off everything else is full price so the fighter in question still pays full for rings/scrolls/wands/potions etcetera


Lady-J wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Crafting guidelines do not say double WBL in any case. They suggest a +25% boost for 1 crafting feat, and +50% for multiple crafting feats.
guidelines, piece of advice not a strict rule that must be followed plus it also stats the more investment you make the more you can take off and add your your worth and a fighter doing crafting invents a lot more than a wizard

Of course, because fighters aren't meant to be magic crafters.

A wizard can wear plate mail too, it just takes a lot more investment than a fighter.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Lady-J wrote:
retraining is a thing

Retraining doesn't bypass the limit that you, as a Fighter, don't have a caster level in which to take Crafting feats with, or that you can only take Master Craftsman for one Craft or Profession skill, period, and you can't take the feat multiple times to cover all forms of crafting. If you're going to argue that you can retrain Master Craftsman for each type of craft, then you're going to have to retrain every time you craft something different than what you crafted prior, which costs time (5 days per switch) and money (300g+ per switch), the former eating into your downtime, the latter eats into your WBL, resulting in less crafting money (and crafting time) for the stuff you're proposing (meaning you may not even craft what you propose).

You can try and justify your argument all you like, but the fact of the matter is that your playstyle is too much of an outlier to consider as something typical to a given table, which means suggestions like these aren't very helpful to the discussion.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


Because every GM allows crafting, and gives you ample time to craft all the items for yourself and your party members, right?

That's also assuming that PCs in your party taking crafting feats, which, depending on their playstyle, and whether the GM permits the feats in the first place, is hardly a guarantee.

House rules may change gameplay.


Quote:
who said the crafter crafts for the entire party if you want crafted gear you invest in crafting and craft it yourself

You lost me here. Definitely our gaming style is just too different.


And that's okay, of course. We all have our own ways of playing, and there's nothing wrong with that. ^^


Never said the opposite. It's just that I am so used to one style of game that I find hers shocking. But everybody is free to play the way they like, I never intended to sound aaccusatory or criticise her.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Snowlilly wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


Because every GM allows crafting, and gives you ample time to craft all the items for yourself and your party members, right?

That's also assuming that PCs in your party taking crafting feats, which, depending on their playstyle, and whether the GM permits the feats in the first place, is hardly a guarantee.

House rules may change gameplay.

I think that's the point people are making, is it not? That Lady-J house is so different that his expreimces and advice based on them aren't that helpful because they don't really mesh with most people's games.


Lady-J wrote:
+3 from weapon training ... at level 6

Shouldn't that be "+1 from weapon training" ?


Pathfinder Card Game, Class Deck Subscriber
whew wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
+3 from weapon training ... at level 6
Shouldn't that be "+1 from weapon training" ?

Gloves of Dueling increase the bonus from weapon training by +2, which Lady-J said her fighter has at level 6.


Honestly the Swashbuckler seems kinda on the low side what did he multiclass into?

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