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Are my PCs hitting too often?


Advice

51 to 74 of 74 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
Honestly the Swashbuckler seems kinda on the low side what did he multiclass into?

2 levels into Magus. I'm not very familiar with "good" swashbuckler builds but I get the feeling that he kind of regrets it now (I believe he did it more for story purposes than anything)


2 levels of Magus :( that's not great unless I'm missing something xD
Although multiclassing is a tricky business at the best of times.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

2 levels of Magus isn't ideal, but I can see the uses. Arcane pool probably gives him an effective +1 on his hits, helping out, and the occasional spell combat with true strike, particularly for a combat maneuver could be pretty useful.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
retraining is a thing

Retraining doesn't bypass the limit that you, as a Fighter, don't have a caster level in which to take Crafting feats with, or that you can only take Master Craftsman for one Craft or Profession skill, period, and you can't take the feat multiple times to cover all forms of crafting. If you're going to argue that you can retrain Master Craftsman for each type of craft, then you're going to have to retrain every time you craft something different than what you crafted prior, which costs time (5 days per switch) and money (300g+ per switch), the former eating into your downtime, the latter eats into your WBL, resulting in less crafting money (and crafting time) for the stuff you're proposing (meaning you may not even craft what you propose).

You can try and justify your argument all you like, but the fact of the matter is that your playstyle is too much of an outlier to consider as something typical to a given table, which means suggestions like these aren't very helpful to the discussion.

while true you just need to be carful with what profession and crafting you choose that will allow you to do so with one skill


Lady-J wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
retraining is a thing

Retraining doesn't bypass the limit that you, as a Fighter, don't have a caster level in which to take Crafting feats with, or that you can only take Master Craftsman for one Craft or Profession skill, period, and you can't take the feat multiple times to cover all forms of crafting. If you're going to argue that you can retrain Master Craftsman for each type of craft, then you're going to have to retrain every time you craft something different than what you crafted prior, which costs time (5 days per switch) and money (300g+ per switch), the former eating into your downtime, the latter eats into your WBL, resulting in less crafting money (and crafting time) for the stuff you're proposing (meaning you may not even craft what you propose).

You can try and justify your argument all you like, but the fact of the matter is that your playstyle is too much of an outlier to consider as something typical to a given table, which means suggestions like these aren't very helpful to the discussion.

while true you just need to be carful with what profession and crafting you choose that will allow you to do so with one skill

You wouldn't be able to craft both your belt/gloves and your weapon with this feat, whereas your calculations assumed that you could.

Needless to say, even giving you the most favorable outcome, you're still overbudget, and also, the likelihood that a Fighter will have the skill ranks or desire to take Crafting feats is a rarity of its own.


The EDV listed in that spreadsheet is incredibly low for martial types. It's not that hard to hit around 200EDV at level 12.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
nicholas storm wrote:
The EDV listed in that spreadsheet is incredibly low for martial types. It's not that hard to hit around 200EDV at level 12.

How are you calculating? Even AM Barbarian is only getting 161 at level 12?


Vanilla bloodrager level 12 DPR 190 vs AC27

Base Attack 12
STR MOD 11 (7 stat+3 rage+1 enlarge)
Heroism +2
Pale Green IS +1
Haste +1
Arcane Strike
+3 Furious Nodachi

27/27/22/17 2-16+36 15-20/x2


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

It's certainly possible with buffs, even self buffs. I'm just not sure that they are to be taken into account for comparison purposes. It's hard to suppose what a reasonable buff is. Perhaps self buffs should be allowed?


MichaelCullen wrote:

It's certainly possible with buffs, even self buffs. I'm just not sure that they are to be taken into account for comparison purposes. It's hard to suppose what a reasonable buff is. Perhaps self buffs should be allowed?

Those are all self buffs with no time spent buffing (heroism lasts 10min/level), enlarge can be auto casted when rage starts; haste from boots.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
nicholas storm wrote:
MichaelCullen wrote:

It's certainly possible with buffs, even self buffs. I'm just not sure that they are to be taken into account for comparison purposes. It's hard to suppose what a reasonable buff is. Perhaps self buffs should be allowed?

Those are all self buffs with no time spent buffing (heroism lasts 10min/level), enlarge can be auto casted when rage starts; haste from boots.

I'm inclined to count these, especially the heroism as it will be up almost every fight.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
retraining is a thing

Retraining doesn't bypass the limit that you, as a Fighter, don't have a caster level in which to take Crafting feats with, or that you can only take Master Craftsman for one Craft or Profession skill, period, and you can't take the feat multiple times to cover all forms of crafting. If you're going to argue that you can retrain Master Craftsman for each type of craft, then you're going to have to retrain every time you craft something different than what you crafted prior, which costs time (5 days per switch) and money (300g+ per switch), the former eating into your downtime, the latter eats into your WBL, resulting in less crafting money (and crafting time) for the stuff you're proposing (meaning you may not even craft what you propose).

You can try and justify your argument all you like, but the fact of the matter is that your playstyle is too much of an outlier to consider as something typical to a given table, which means suggestions like these aren't very helpful to the discussion.

while true you just need to be carful with what profession and crafting you choose that will allow you to do so with one skill

You wouldn't be able to craft both your belt/gloves and your weapon with this feat, whereas your calculations assumed that you could.

Needless to say, even giving you the most favorable outcome, you're still overbudget, and also, the likelihood that a Fighter will have the skill ranks or desire to take Crafting feats is a rarity of its own.

crafting an professions don't have predesignated terms like perform so all you would need to do is either pick a profession that can make all you need or take craft that would allow you to craft everything like craft equipment


My point was that if you follow the guidelines for edv in that spreadsheet, you will look pretty crappy against an optimized martial.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
retraining is a thing

Retraining doesn't bypass the limit that you, as a Fighter, don't have a caster level in which to take Crafting feats with, or that you can only take Master Craftsman for one Craft or Profession skill, period, and you can't take the feat multiple times to cover all forms of crafting. If you're going to argue that you can retrain Master Craftsman for each type of craft, then you're going to have to retrain every time you craft something different than what you crafted prior, which costs time (5 days per switch) and money (300g+ per switch), the former eating into your downtime, the latter eats into your WBL, resulting in less crafting money (and crafting time) for the stuff you're proposing (meaning you may not even craft what you propose).

You can try and justify your argument all you like, but the fact of the matter is that your playstyle is too much of an outlier to consider as something typical to a given table, which means suggestions like these aren't very helpful to the discussion.

a fighter can gain a caster level from picking a race with a racial spell like ability, like the Onispawnt Variant Tiefling Heritage from Blood of Fiends. but they are effectively giving up the human bonus feat to do it, you also need a decent intelligence and points in spellcraft, which means you lower your charisma to 5 and take advantage of your racial wisdom bonus.


Lady-J wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
retraining is a thing

Retraining doesn't bypass the limit that you, as a Fighter, don't have a caster level in which to take Crafting feats with, or that you can only take Master Craftsman for one Craft or Profession skill, period, and you can't take the feat multiple times to cover all forms of crafting. If you're going to argue that you can retrain Master Craftsman for each type of craft, then you're going to have to retrain every time you craft something different than what you crafted prior, which costs time (5 days per switch) and money (300g+ per switch), the former eating into your downtime, the latter eats into your WBL, resulting in less crafting money (and crafting time) for the stuff you're proposing (meaning you may not even craft what you propose).

You can try and justify your argument all you like, but the fact of the matter is that your playstyle is too much of an outlier to consider as something typical to a given table, which means suggestions like these aren't very helpful to the discussion.

while true you just need to be carful with what profession and crafting you choose that will allow you to do so with one skill

You wouldn't be able to craft both your belt/gloves and your weapon with this feat, whereas your calculations assumed that you could.

Needless to say, even giving you the most favorable outcome, you're still overbudget, and also, the likelihood that a Fighter will have the skill ranks or desire to take Crafting feats is a rarity of its own.

crafting an professions don't have predesignated terms like perform so all you would need to do is either pick a profession that can make all you need or take craft that would allow you to craft everything like craft equipment

Craft (Skill) :

(Int)
Source: Core Rulebook
You are skilled in the creation of a specific group of items, such as armor or weapons. Like Knowledge, Perform, and Profession, Craft is actually a number of separate skills. You could have several Craft skills, each with its own ranks. The most common Craft skills are alchemy, armor, baskets, books, bows, calligraphy, carpentry, cloth, clothing, glass, jewelry, leather, locks, paintings, pottery, sculptures, ships, shoes, stonemasonry, traps, and weapons.A Craft skill is specifically focused on creating something. If nothing is created by the endeavor, it probably falls under the heading of a Profession skill.

So YES, yes it does. There is no singular Craft or Profession that covers crafting of weapons, armor, accessories, jewelry or unsloted Wonderous item of all types of metal, leathers, clothes and gems. If your DM (or you) are allowing that much flexibility to the rules tgen there is a terribly daft lack of core understanding of the rules at your table.

Please provide a level by level break down of your proposed Fighter with a Str of 20 and all relevant crafting feats and illustrate how they aquired the prerequisites for them.


FrozenLaughs wrote:
Lady-J wrote:


Craft (Skill) :

(Int)
Source: Core Rulebook
You are skilled in the creation of a specific group of items, such as armor or weapons. Like Knowledge, Perform, and Profession, Craft is actually a number of separate skills. You could have several Craft skills, each with its own ranks. The most common Craft skills are alchemy, armor, baskets, books, bows, calligraphy, carpentry, cloth, clothing, glass, jewelry, leather, locks, paintings, pottery, sculptures, ships, shoes, stonemasonry, traps, and weapons.A Craft skill is specifically focused on creating something. If nothing is created by the endeavor, it probably falls under the heading of a Profession skill.

So YES, yes it does. There is no singular Craft or Profession that covers crafting of weapons, armor, accessories, jewelry or unsloted Wonderous item of all types of metal, leathers, clothes and gems. If your DM (or you) are allowing that much flexibility to the rules tgen there is a terribly daft lack of core understanding of the rules at your table.

Please provide a level by level break down of your proposed Fighter with a Str of 20 and all relevant crafting feats and illustrate how they aquired the prerequisites for them.

while those are the most common things for crafting there are much much more things that fall under what crafting can do, some are a lot more specific while others are more general all of which craft things as for being able to actually do the crafting step one master craftmen as well as 2 traits that will boost either crafting or profession (there's one that allows you to take 12 instead of take 10 and the other just gives a +2)step 2 craft wondrous items and step 3 craft arms and armor


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Lady-J wrote:
while those are the most common things for crafting there are much much more things that fall under what crafting can do, some are a lot more specific while others are more general all of which craft things as for being able to actually do the crafting step one master craftmen as well as 2 traits that will boost either crafting or profession (there's one that allows you to take 12 instead of take 10 and the other just gives a +2)step 2 craft wondrous items and step 3 craft arms and armor

You're completely ignoring everything I just said. What Craft_____ lets you make everything? Tell me please. Even taking Master Craftsman at level 5, you still need 5 ranks in a craft or profession. And Master Craftsman is only the basis for qualifying for Craft Magic Arms&Armor and Craft Wonderous Item, you would still need to purchase them at levels 7 and 9,unless you're claiming to Retrain your Character levels 1 and 3 (non FBF) feats, which you could technically do for CWI, but NOT CMA&A because it requires a caster level of 5 that you can't fake until level 5 with the purchase of Master Craftsman to begin with. So now you aren't even qualified for Craft Magic Arms & Armor until 7, and at this point you've invested half of what makes you a Fighter into being a smith...

And you still haven't clarified what Craft____ you've invested those precious 2+int mod (+human/fcb) skill points into. Do you have points into Profession? Can you run a business in your downtime to make money off what you make? Do you have points in Appraise, Diplomacy, or Sense Motive like a merchant would? Let's say you retrain to pick up Craft Wonderous Item after learning Master Craftsman at 5. Did you put points into Craft-Jewelery for the Wonderous Items like earrings, rings, amulets and necklaces? Or did you perhaps put them into Craft-Leatherworking to make those sweet gloves, boots, and headbands? What about Craft-Gemcutting to make those cool Figurines and Ioun Stones and stuff?

Or let's look at Craft Magic Arms&Armor. Do you have points in Craft-Armor or Craft-Weapons? Or are you arguing that something more universal like "Craft-Metalworking" is enough of a loophole to do everything? Because your Craft selections are literally THAT SPECIFIC, it's called out specifically in the Skill description that I not only posted, but YOU QUOTED and ignored. Bottom line, if you or your DM thinks that crafting is this cheap, broad and generalized then you are seriously abusing a system that neither of you seem to completely understand.


When I GM, I regularly do character sheet spot checks.... the amount of times Ive come across an "Eh?!?!.... what the hell is this?!" ability/item...


a fighter doesn't need master craftsman if they are a member of a race that has a racial spell like ability with a caster level that scales with their character level. Onispawn Tieflings are a good choice for this because they boost strength and wisdom but lower charisma, freeing up points to train intelligence for skill points on spellcraft and also having a decent SLA.


Ilina Aniri wrote:
a fighter doesn't need master craftsman if they are a member of a race that has a racial spell like ability with a caster level that scales with their character level. Onispawn Tieflings are a good choice for this because they boost strength and wisdom but lower charisma, freeing up points to train intelligence for skill points on spellcraft and also having a decent SLA.

Spell like abilities don't count as spellcasting for feats. FAQ

SLA only let you meet requirements of specific spells, not of general casting or caster level.


nicholas storm wrote:
My point was that if you follow the guidelines for edv in that spreadsheet, you will look pretty crappy against an optimized martial.

The numbers on the chart are not about "optimizing" a character based on every available option. They're baseline performances, with green being the ability to deal 1/4th of a same-CR opponent's HP in damage in a round, and blue being the ability to deal half their health in damage.

Essentially, the idea is that a party of four characters should be able to take down a same-CR opponent in about one round of actions.

This can actually matter to the overall strength of a party. Let's say we have two attackers really focused on damage, and they can do 75% of a target's HP in one round. The rest of the party isn't directly offensive.

Well... you only need to do 100% of a foe's HP, not the 150% from two separate characters. All that extra damage is often wasted, and the resources used to get there could have been put into things like making a character more survivable or better able to deal with the challenges they face. For example, Fighters failing Will Saves against mind-control can be a much bigger problem for the party than the Fighter not being able to deal two or three more points of damage per-round.

Pathfinder isn't a game that really expects characters to be fully optimized. You can play that way - and if your table enjoys it, there's nothing wrong with that - but as-is, the math of the system essentially expects you to be near-ish to the values on the chart. I mean, you don't really need to buff your saves higher if you only fail on a 1, y'know? Similarly, there's a point where adding more to AC makes no practical difference, where dealing more damage doesn't help you win faster, and where creatures will never really be able to overcome your Save DCs.


FrozenLaughs wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
while those are the most common things for crafting there are much much more things that fall under what crafting can do, some are a lot more specific while others are more general all of which craft things as for being able to actually do the crafting step one master craftmen as well as 2 traits that will boost either crafting or profession (there's one that allows you to take 12 instead of take 10 and the other just gives a +2)step 2 craft wondrous items and step 3 craft arms and armor

You're completely ignoring everything I just said. What Craft_____ lets you make everything? Tell me please. Even taking Master Craftsman at level 5, you still need 5 ranks in a craft or profession. And Master Craftsman is only the basis for qualifying for Craft Magic Arms&Armor and Craft Wonderous Item, you would still need to purchase them at levels 7 and 9,unless you're claiming to Retrain your Character levels 1 and 3 (non FBF) feats, which you could technically do for CWI, but NOT CMA&A because it requires a caster level of 5 that you can't fake until level 5 with the purchase of Master Craftsman to begin with. So now you aren't even qualified for Craft Magic Arms & Armor until 7, and at this point you've invested half of what makes you a Fighter into being a smith...

And you still haven't clarified what Craft____ you've invested those precious 2+int mod (+human/fcb) skill points into. Do you have points into Profession? Can you run a business in your downtime to make money off what you make? Do you have points in Appraise, Diplomacy, or Sense Motive like a merchant would? Let's say you retrain to pick up Craft Wonderous Item after learning Master Craftsman at 5. Did you put points into Craft-Jewelery for the Wonderous Items like earrings, rings, amulets and necklaces? Or did you perhaps put them into Craft-Leatherworking to make those sweet gloves, boots, and headbands? What about Craft-Gemcutting to make those cool Figurines and Ioun Stones and stuff?

Or let's look at Craft Magic...

master craftsman uses the ranks in the skill as the caster level and any craft/profession can be used to create all items with wondrous and arms and armor as a prerequisite and while you use the bonuses of that skill to make it you are technically not using that specific skill as it is being replaced by the wording in master craftsman so yes you can have a vague craft like craft metal working to make the mundane weapons and armor you need as a fighter and then still use it for creating literally any wondrous and arms and armor items as well


I don't really care what the basis of your spreadsheet is. If you are pushing it as a guideline for characters to aim for, then people have to understand that it's not hard to exceed the edv numbers by a lot. As such I wouldn't consider it as very useful.

The character I posted, while it is a top damaging class, was not entirely optimized for damage. I have other builds that do much higher DPR than the bloodrager.

If you don't like my feedback, I am okay with that.


Ilina Aniri wrote:
a fighter doesn't need master craftsman if they are a member of a race that has a racial spell like ability with a caster level that scales with their character level. Onispawn Tieflings are a good choice for this because they boost strength and wisdom but lower charisma, freeing up points to train intelligence for skill points on spellcraft and also having a decent SLA.

unfortunately

there was an erata on that and that strategy is no longer viable :(

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