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Pathfinder: Kingmaker Announced!


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worldhopper wrote:
a) there were twice as many men as women (just in the main party - add in the brigands and the ratio gets even further off) and b) literally everyone in the image is white or white-coded. It's jarring when you compare it to pretty much every other major piece of Pathfinder art. I mean, I'd...

I beg your pardon but the second artwork the have shows a female warrior, a dark-skinned male ranger, a male knight and a half-elf wizardy lady. First artwork has two females and we have no idea about the halfling... And I can name quite a few APs that had few people of color, simply beacuse the region doesn't have many of those. River Kingdoms, Galt, Brevoy... main nationalities for humans here are kellid, taldan, ulfen and varisians. A bit of Tien here and there because of proximity to the northern trade routs. Also pretty sure half-orcs can have any nationality. Centaurs of the region are heavily mongol inspired too.

Plus, not all iconics make sense in this region, and as devs and director told us - a lot is still in the works and discussions. The iconic brawler makes a lot of sense for me, Kess the "Bull" is from River Kingdoms. Quinn is from Galt, so he could be a possible choice for a character imho, but he's more fit for an urban campaign.

I feel you are reeeealy-reaaaaly trying to judge the game from cover art... and we don't even have a cover art yet. And you haven't experienced the book it's based on. I fell you are nitpicking something that doesn't qualify for nitpicking yet.


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My favorite part about "don't judge the book by its cover" arguments is when the game comes out and the cover ends up being pretty indicative the game.

These early things matter and can tell a lot. The best way to avoid it becoming an issue? To vocalize the criticisms and concerns.

Frankly, there's a bunch of white guys in the art we've seen, where there aren't white guys there are white women, when there aren't white women there is the one half orc and the black ranger. It's not a super crazy ratio if everyone is supposed to be native to The River Kingdoms or the surrounding area. That's one of the reasons I'm not happy about Kingmaker. It's too easy to justify a lack of diversity. Not saying that will happen in the end product, but I don't know these developers and that's starting them at a disadvantage.

For what it's worth I haven't read through all of Kingmaker. I've skimmed through a couple books of it and re-skimmed through the first book. The iconics in the book are Amiri, Harsk, Lini, and Sajan, which is a way more varied looking group than what the concept art showed. I also understand why the main art looked so bland to me. The Stag Lord has a different helm (the most recognizable part of him for me) so kudos to the people who immediately thought "Oh cool Stag Lord!" because he looked like a random skull wearing barbarian to me.


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Armenius wrote:
My favorite part about "don't judge the book by its cover" arguments is when the game comes out and the cover ends up being pretty indicative the game.

But we don't have a cover. We have a few concept and promotion arts for a game, which is early in development. If this isn't jumping to conclusions - I don't know what is.

Also I am not a big supporter of token diversity. At least for me - it spoils immersion. Now if we ever get a game set in, say, Absalom, literally the center and melting pot of all of the inner sea, I'd find it weird there isn't more diversity. Also am pretty sure games like this allow you to play pretty much anyone you want.

Or... we can set it in Cheliax, a place know for it's whiteness, racism and devil worship... which, arguably, has the most interesting lore in the region, right after Varisia.

Then again, as I said, this is early info but people jump to conclusions (me included) and try to push some narratives and agendas.


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Gorbacz wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
I went from super excited to terribly disappointed reading this thread. Real time combat means I won't play it. I'll probably still buy a copy (so I guess it doesn't matter), but that's a terrible let down. :(
Ah, Steve, I knew you're a paleoconservative. ;-)

I cut my teeth on Wizardry, Ultimate and Bard's Tale. Why can't it be like them? :p

I bet they won't even have a proper manual, will they?
Or a spinning paper wheel copy protection mechanism? I mean, they were kind of cute.

Tease.


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Keydan wrote:
Armenius wrote:
My favorite part about "don't judge the book by its cover" arguments is when the game comes out and the cover ends up being pretty indicative the game.

But we don't have a cover. We have a few concept and promotion arts for a game, which is early in development. If this isn't jumping to conclusions - I don't know what is.

Also I am not a big supporter of token diversity. At least for me - it spoils immersion. Now if we ever get a game set in, say, Absalom, literally the center and melting pot of all of the inner sea, I'd find it weird there isn't more diversity. Also am pretty sure games like this allow you to play pretty much anyone you want.

Or... we can set it in Cheliax, a place know for it's whiteness, racism and devil worship... which, arguably, has the most interesting lore in the region, right after Varisia.

Then again, as I said, this is early info but people jump to conclusions (me included) and try to push some narratives and agendas.

I don't want to derail the thread, but Armenius has a point, and I have personal experience with it that still rankles to this day.

If there's one fantasy setting I love as much as Golarion, it's Guild Wars' Tyria. When Guild Wars Factions came out, I was in high school, and I recall reading the cover article about it in CGW and being fascinated, because I'd never at that time seen a Western RPG with a non-Euro-counterpart setting before. I begged my parents to let me pick up the game (they did not like the concept of MMOs) and when I finally bought it, I fell hard and fast. Even more so when I acquired Nightfall, which is I think to this day the only fantasy RPG I have EVER seen that has an African-inspired setting. Even Prophecies, which was ostensibly European, actually largely took place in a jungle/coastal area inhabited mostly by POC. Between the unique setting and the deck-buildy combat mechanics, I was enthralled for over 5 years.

Fast forward to 2009, when Guild Wars 2 finally ceased being vaporware and started generating hype. One of the things I noticed, after getting past the thrill of the game actually existing, was that the backstory included the loss of contact with Cantha (the Asian counterpart area) and Elona (the African counterpart area). In addition, that jungle/coastal area was now inhabited almost entirely by white people. And the character creation, when it was revealed, had almost no options for making characters of color. I spoke up all over the forums about all of this, because it was absolutely not the setting I knew and loved. And everyone said exactly the same thing: "You're complaining too early! Don't judge by the cover! It's still in development!"

As the release date drew closer, it became clear nothing had changed. The responses from other fans switched to "Don't worry, Cantha and Elona will be the first expansions! Remember, the original game started just with Prophecies!" And then the first (currently only) expansion dropped... set in the uninhabited deep jungle and deserts of the Maguuma. Today, 5 almost years after launch, the continents of Cantha and Elona that originally drew me to the franchise are still inaccessible.

So no, I am going to speak up throughout development. Best case scenario, the art they're using to promo the game right now isn't representative of the final product, and my complaints are unnecessary. But if this is indicative of where they're going with the game - and really, if you're announcing a game why would you NOT lead with your best foot? - then yes, I think it's absolutely the best time to register concerns. And my concern is that Pathfinder has always been an inclusive RPG with a strong emphasis on representation, and the promotion we have so far doesn't reflect that.

I don't want this game to fail. I love Pathfinder, and I've wanted a Pathfinder CRPG for years. And I'm very, very afraid that if this doesn't do well, PF will be seen as a toxic IP. Looking at articles on the announcement, almost every comment thread has people bringing up PFO. That's non-tabletop people's only experience with the franchise. So this game has to work twice as hard to put that out of people's memory, and I'm just... not sure it's doing that yet.


Aiming for diversity is a noble mission, but shouldn't become the primary target of a game. For the majority of customers it's easy to accept some diversity sprinkled in here and there, but it can be overdone, ending up in feelings like 'eh, there's no person I identify myself with' or 'do they try to teach me?!'.

Paizo does it in an unobtrusive way, hitting a good compromise between ethics and business. Maybe this game will be more on the side of business, but even then at least some diversity will be brought to players who didn't bother with Pathfinder before.

There are two kinds of idealists: The first always compares reality to how it could be and focuses on the shortcomings. The second does the same, but appreciates any change towards an ideal world. Belonging to the second group helps to avoid frustration and to be more accepted among the 'normal' people.


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So how does "I think there's not enough non white people" turn into "I think this game should push for diversity at the expense of all other things"?. Not sure how increased diversity would hurt other aspects of thing game but whatever

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Diversity is good.

END OF F~@~ING STORY.


Yeah I have plenty of human paladins of various D&D editions. They start to blend together.


SheepishEidolon wrote:
there are two kinds of idealists: The first always compares reality to how it could be and focuses on the shortcomings. The second does the same, but appreciates any change towards an ideal world. Belonging to the second group helps to avoid frustration and to be more accepted among the 'normal' people.

I'd drink to that.

Honestly, I probably have my hopes too high since I both like Kingmaker and most games Nival made over the years. Have most of them in CDs and on Steam. I'll be happy if it's as good as their better games, they always had a knack for good strategy and made one of the best, imho, turn based tactical games in the 00s. I also liked the overall art style they usually went for, HoMM5 was great and Allods had a fun style too. The problem I have - they haven't released a conventional RPG in more than a decade, but they do have experience.


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SheepishEidolon wrote:
For the majority of customers it's easy to accept some diversity sprinkled in here and there, but it can be overdone, ending up in feelings like 'eh, there's no person I identify myself with'

But it's fine if a game makes women, POC, and/or queer people feel that way?


SheepishEidolon wrote:
'eh, there's no person I identify myself with'

I'm pretty sure Paizo would not release something that did not have ANY cis-gendered, hetrosexual white males. There's always been at least one. In fact, I can't think of any videogame ever released that did not have at least one such character.

So, as long as everyone gets at least one character they can identify with, it's all good. I'm quite sure you'll be safe and able to find a character to play in this world/space. I can't imagine Paizo completely leaving you out. You might even get to choose between more than one character!


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But isn't that your main character you make yourself? These types of games are rarely about the story of this 1 specific dude and his specific single-line story. You make a custom dude and project onto him, make choices, and, sometimes, there are fun party members/NPCs that fill this or that trope scattered over the quest-line for you to connect with in addition to that. But again, sheesh, it's 3 art works one a single page for now.


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I'd be slightly moved by the "It's three artworks on a single page" argument if this was my first video game announcement.

These are not new arguments. "I'm concerned about this thing" "It's too early to worry" is going to happen at every single news update up until the last update. Yes, some concerns may be assuaged during paizo con. Some will be fixed a year from now in development. Some things will be ignored until people are complaining about them a week after release.


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Keydan wrote:
But we don't have a cover. We have a few concept and promotion arts for a game, which is early in development. If this isn't jumping to conclusions - I don't know what is.

There is a decision-making process that goes into deciding what art to develop, and what art to show the public. If diversity wasn't a significant consideration during that decision-making process, it doesn't bode well for diversity being a significant consideration during other decision-making processes.

Regardless, by voicing these concerns early on (ish) in the development process, there's a chance that the developers will be able to incorporate that sort of community feedback into their final product.

Quote:
Also I am not a big supporter of token diversity. At least for me - it spoils immersion.

I think your immersion can probably suffer just a tiny bit for the sake of making the game more inclusive and welcoming, don't you? Let's just all acknowledge that your personal sense of immersion will recover from the ordeal of seeing another dark-skinned person.


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I found some comments from the studio on the Reddit announcement about representation (Unfortunately, unsurprisingly, I found it by sorting by controversial).

It's reassuring stuff to me. Rather, reassuring in their intentions.

Dark Archive

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I always feel awkward in these diversity conversations since while I do think diversity is good for multiple different reasons... I honestly just want a game where there aren't humans at all where you could play monsters xP

I mean, I'm never going to get CRPG like that since games where PC isn't a human or humanoid outside of cartoony 2d platformers are really rare xD


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So just for the record - is "pausable real time combat" what was used in NWN?

Dark Archive

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Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
So just for the record - is "pausable real time combat" what was used in NWN?

Its what almost every CRPG uses, including Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment, Tyranny & Pillars of Eternity.


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CorvusMask wrote:
Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
So just for the record - is "pausable real time combat" what was used in NWN?
Its what almost every CRPG uses, including Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment, Tyranny & Pillars of Eternity.

Thanks CorvusMask, but I'm not familiar with those. I guess I can try to check some gameplay of those games on YouTube and see if it is similar. Or I just wait for a sample of Pathfinder:Kingmaker. ;)


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Neverwinter Nights used pausable real-time combat


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Thanks Nullpunkt.

And "isometric" is what Planescape et al used? Where you can't spin your view 360 ° around your character, and you are always stuck looking at the game from one angle?


worldhopper wrote:
SheepishEidolon wrote:
For the majority of customers it's easy to accept some diversity sprinkled in here and there, but it can be overdone, ending up in feelings like 'eh, there's no person I identify myself with'
But it's fine if a game makes women, POC, and/or queer people feel that way?

No. Again, Paizo does it in a good way. Women, POC and queer people are somewhat more present in the game world than among the actual players. The key word here is 'somewhat'. I doubt many people would play a game exclusively populated by colored queer people, to use an unrealistically extreme example. Even among the different minorities, many would find that over the top. And then the noble mission of the company utterly fails. A modest approach achieves much more.


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Good to see! Love the old-school approach!

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SheepishEidolon wrote:
worldhopper wrote:
SheepishEidolon wrote:
For the majority of customers it's easy to accept some diversity sprinkled in here and there, but it can be overdone, ending up in feelings like 'eh, there's no person I identify myself with'
But it's fine if a game makes women, POC, and/or queer people feel that way?
No. Again, Paizo does it in a good way. Women, POC and queer people are somewhat more present in the game world than among the actual players. The key word here is 'somewhat'. I doubt many people would play a game exclusively populated by colored queer people, to use an unrealistically extreme example. Even among the different minorities, many would find that over the top. And then the noble mission of the company utterly fails. A modest approach achieves much more.

And you'd be wrong.

Hella wrong.

Hilariously wrong.

Having an "extreme" amount of diversity is not unrealistic. Thinking so is however.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

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Color me cautiously optimistic. I don't know the experience of most of the folks behind it, but Avellone is a really good storyteller. Even his more mediocre efforts, like Neverwinter Nights 2, are well worth playing.

As to the diversity question, I think it's well worth voicing concerns now. Diversity is one of the Pathfinder brand's strengths, and it would be good to have that show through in the first major foray into the video game market.

Lantern Lodge RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4

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SheepishEidolon wrote:
I doubt many people would play a game exclusively populated by colored queer people

"I doubt many people would play a game exclusively populated by straight white men."

Do you realize that's how you sound?

Because that's how wrong you are.


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SheepishEidolon wrote:
Women, POC and queer people are somewhat more present in the game world than among the actual players.

So you've done some random sample of ALL Pathfinder players (not just ones you've met face-to-face) and you have data that show that the proportions of "women, POC, and queer people" in the universe of "Pathfinder players" is different from the proportions of such people in the printed materials?

I'd like to see your data, please. I wasn't aware that such a study had been done.

Or perhaps you're just making up data to match your beliefs.


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Can I just say that I'm kind of happy that this game is taking place in the River Kingdoms. You can make the argument that its generic but at the very least its far away from Golarion's more racist and stereotypical countries.

I love Paizo, I really do, but Golarion is fundamentally problematic setting that relies way to much on cultural stereotypes of real world people and cultures. That's why the Cult of Dawnflower is run by religious extremists who unsurprisingly look Middle Eastern people. That's why the Bekyar are of course a bunch of Black demon-worshiping slavers. That's why we have stuff like the Sczarni who are of course a bunch of predatory criminals that reflect the worse stereotypes of the Romani people. Hell, even Scandinavian people are depicted as barbaric Vikings that like to sing sea-shanties and raid coastlines for treasure. I could go on, but I think my point has been made. If going to places like the River Kingdoms or Nirthasmas means a bigger chance of avoiding harmful stereotypes and allowing people of color to not just be prop for "classic adventures" I'm more than happy.

Also, in terms of queer people I really do wish not every (as far I know) transperson depicted so far was the magical equivalent of post-op. Having trans people pre-op and not conventionally attractive would be nice.


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Mythrael wrote:

Great to see you here !

And glad you guys play Pathfinder. :)
But please tell us why there will be no turn-based combat ?
When you play the Pen&Paper game you see how it works and it is only the natural decision to use it instead of real-time with pause.

I don't know if you've gotten an answer yet, but I knew this would crop up.

Back in the annals of time, the OGC was created - ostensibly to make open-ended third party editions to D&D 3.5 easier and standardised across the board, etc etc.

Wizards, as part of the OGC, basically held all rights for computer games released using rules under the OGC. Pathfinder is, unfortunately, based on the OGC rules. Ergo, as with Pathfinder Online, all video game adaptations must use a system that simulates the rules without using them.

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Delightful wrote:
Also, in terms of queer people I really do wish not every (as far I know) transperson depicted so far was the magical equivalent of post-op. Having trans people pre-op and not conventionally attractive would be nice.

Iconic Shaman says hi!


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Delightful wrote:
Can I just say that I'm kind of happy that this game is taking place in the River Kingdoms. You can make the argument that its generic but at the very least its far away from Golarion's more racist and stereotypical countries.

See, I totally agree with you on some of those things (Mwangi especially, Varisia has gotten better but all the old stuff is still there). The Inner Sea World Guide just plain needs a 2nd edition. Dawnflower I don't get. It's not that big a part of Qadira let alone any of the Middle Eastern based nations. There are other extreme factions of religions and Dawnflower is an extreme faction of a NG deity. They aren't even evil.

But I don't see how that's helpful though. We do generic European setting (apologies to the people who like River Kingdoms or Slavic settings, I've played games in plenty of fantasy settings and RK is generic to me) games to avoid racist stereotypes and guess what, we end up with a lot of generic European settings. The intentions are different, but this is exactly what people who only want their generic European setting games want. Nothing changes.

Paizo has improved. We *just* got a Qadira setting book. I don't know your review of it but just by word count it's going to be more varied and less reliant on stereotypes then the blurb they got in the World Guide and whatever they got in various modules or Adventure Paths. If Paizo had narrowed down the Inner Sea, made it only a line through Cheliax and Brevoy, we never would have got a Qadira setting book. They would not have had a chance to make a better representation.

You can't just wait until something perfect comes along. That's procrastination. Eventually, Paizo is going to release a new adventure in Mwangi Expanse, or Kingmaker will do well and the next game we get is Serpent's Skull. There will be issues. Hopefully they won't be that bad. Hopefully Paizo or Owlcat or whatever hypothetical studio will listen to criticisms and do rewrites or just be better for the next product.

I'd rather it be sooner than later so we can get past the cringy stuff and I can play an RPG video game in a setting that's not 90% white people.


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LuniasM wrote:
Delightful wrote:
Also, in terms of queer people I really do wish not every (as far I know) transperson depicted so far was the magical equivalent of post-op. Having trans people pre-op and not conventionally attractive would be nice.
Iconic Shaman says hi!

Shardra's not conventionally attractive? I guess she's short but I definitely wouldn't mark her as not attractive by most people's standards. Different strokes for different folks I suppose.


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Unfortunately, unattractive or unconventionally attractive characters that are significant and not ugly villainous types can be hard to find enough as it is, let alone trans ones.

Sounds like a reason to write even more trans characters to me.


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What's the thinking behind wanting unattractive* heroes/villains?

* Allow me to use the term without definition, since I don't think clarity of terminology will add much.


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Steve Geddes wrote:

What's the thinking behind wanting unattractive* heroes/villains?

* Allow me to use the term without definition, since I don't think clarity of terminology will add much.

It's mostly in response to this sentiment 'eh, there's no person I identify myself with'

If "identify with" means "looks a lot like me", then unrealistic beauty standards (for both men and women) can get in the way. It's not so much that heroes and villains need to be 'unattractive', but that they need to be more realistic. Think of trying to identify with an over-muscled hero if you're not particularly physically trim. Or the standard Barbie-figured heroine.

This, of course, breaks down quickly when you're talking about a game where dwarves, elves, and a myriad other imaginary body types exist, but I think the point is that people like seeing characters that 'look a lot like me', (whatever that definition is).


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I guess I'm thinking in terms of movies - I like attractive superheroes or whatever as idealised, admittedly unrealistic characters. I hadn't really considered it in terms of "identifying with" them.

Cheers.


Armenius wrote:
Delightful wrote:
Can I just say that I'm kind of happy that this game is taking place in the River Kingdoms. You can make the argument that its generic but at the very least its far away from Golarion's more racist and stereotypical countries.

See, I totally agree with you on some of those things (Mwangi especially, Varisia has gotten better but all the old stuff is still there). The Inner Sea World Guide just plain needs a 2nd edition. Dawnflower I don't get. It's not that big a part of Qadira let alone any of the Middle Eastern based nations. There are other extreme factions of religions and Dawnflower is an extreme faction of a NG deity. They aren't even evil.

But I don't see how that's helpful though. We do generic European setting (apologies to the people who like River Kingdoms or Slavic settings, I've played games in plenty of fantasy settings and RK is generic to me) games to avoid racist stereotypes and guess what, we end up with a lot of generic European settings. The intentions are different, but this is exactly what people who only want their generic European setting games want. Nothing changes.

Paizo has improved. We *just* got a Qadira setting book. I don't know your review of it but just by word count it's going to be more varied and less reliant on stereotypes then the blurb they got in the World Guide and whatever they got in various modules or Adventure Paths. If Paizo had narrowed down the Inner Sea, made it only a line through Cheliax and Brevoy, we never would have got a Qadira setting book. They would not have had a chance to make a better representation.

You can't just wait until something perfect comes along. That's procrastination. Eventually, Paizo is going to release a new adventure in Mwangi Expanse, or Kingmaker will do well and the next game we get is Serpent's Skull. There will be issues. Hopefully they won't be that bad. Hopefully Paizo or Owlcat or whatever hypothetical studio will listen to criticisms and do rewrites or just be better for the next...

I think I see your point. The thing is don't really see the River Kingdom as very European compared t0 Brevoy, Cheliax or Taldor. Besides, a bit of lore stating that it was settled by people of Taldan (who are apparently supposed to have bronze skin but constantly get depicted as British people for some reason) there's nothing necessarily European about the River Kingdoms. It's a patchwork nation of smaller kingdoms that could easily serve as an inclusive setting where all the ethic groups in Golarion can exist without the stereotypes associated with them. A good example is Daggermark the biggest city in the River Kingdoms and one that was founded by Kelish people. Of course, I could be wrong and Owlcat screws the pooch on my idealistic hopes but here's to hoping anyway.

When it comes to the Cult of the Dawnflower my problem is that their the only major religious extremists of a Good-aligned God. Erastil doesn't have this problem and neither does Shelyn, Cayden Cailean, or any of the others. Even Iomedae's Glorious Reclamation is presented in a completely positive light while the Cult of the Dawnflower are warmongering cleansers. I do like the new Qadira book though even it didn't really fix the Cult of the Dawnflower in my opinion.

I guess ultimately the reason I like nations like the River Kingdoms, Druma, the Mana Wastes, Nirthamas and Absalom more than say Qadira, Taldor or the Mwangi Expanse is because they don't have to rely on fantasy depictions of real world cultures which I've seen countless times in other RPG settings. Representation of non--European cultures is nice and good but I do wish that African looking people didn't ALWAYS have to be mostly in some kind of jungle realm or Middle-Eastern ALWAYS having to come from a land of genies and sand. Paizo does its level best to spice up the formula but there's only so much you can do with a overused mold.


Armenius wrote:

Unfortunately, unattractive or unconventionally attractive characters that are significant and not ugly villainous types can be hard to find enough as it is, let alone trans ones.

Sounds like a reason to write even more trans characters to me.

On that we agree!


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To be fair, Erastil's original Kingmaker article was uh, not friendly towards the deity. It got retconned hard though but I think it's fair considering most of the problematic stuff Paizo did was early on (the sexist Erastil era, pretty much).

I like Mana Wastes too. Honestly, with the exception of RK and Absalom I'd prefer adventures in all of those areas to the places you don't like as much. Still, Mummy's Mask is in Osirion, and I'd prefer a Mummy's Mask crpg to Kingmaker or a completely original adventure (For the first game. I'm cool with original stories but this is the first real step into video game territory and it should be as Paizoriffic as possible).

Re: Glorious Reclamation I only got to run the first book and read the others and they are certainly not on the same moral level as the Cult (I'd still call them LG as a whole) but I wouldn't say they were in a completely positive light. It actually annoyed me because I wanted a purely evil campaign and it felt like letting the Glorious Reclamation win *wouldn't* have been a victory for the forces of good. The world would be a worse place if they won how it is presented in the Adventure Path (And even just their attempts lead to some pretty bad stuff happening independent of the evil the PCs commit)


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Oceanshieldwolf wrote:

Thanks Nullpunkt.

And "isometric" is what Planescape et al used? Where you can't spin your view 360 ° around your character, and you are always stuck looking at the game from one angle?

"Isometric" by itself doesn't mandate a single fixed point of view; it describes a (particularly useful) type of visual projection. You could have an isometric projection that allows you to switch between four different viewing directions, for example.

In practice, though, one of the advantages to using an isometric projection is that you can get away with only using a single viewing angle, which means you don't have to produce or render much of the environment in 3D. I expect that the new Kingmaker game will follow this particular tradition.

Scarab Sages

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CorvusMask wrote:

I always feel awkward in these diversity conversations since while I do think diversity is good for multiple different reasons... I honestly just want a game where there aren't humans at all where you could play monsters xP

I mean, I'm never going to get CRPG like that since games where PC isn't a human or humanoid outside of cartoony 2d platformers are really rare xD

Heard of this?


So, since this game is going to based around Kingmaker has its narrative been essentially spoiled to us already? I mean, the Staglord is in the concept art so does that mean that a certain fey is going to be final antagonist?


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Scott Betts wrote:
Oceanshieldwolf wrote:

Thanks Nullpunkt.

And "isometric" is what Planescape et al used? Where you can't spin your view 360 ° around your character, and you are always stuck looking at the game from one angle?

"Isometric" by itself doesn't mandate a single fixed point of view; it describes a (particularly useful) type of visual projection. You could have an isometric projection that allows you to switch between four different viewing directions, for example.

In practice, though, one of the advantages to using an isometric projection is that you can get away with only using a single viewing angle, which means you don't have to produce or render much of the environment in 3D. I expect that the new Kingmaker game will follow this particular tradition.

Thanks for the reply Scott! Yea, I meant "isometric as in Planescape: Torment".

I loved NWN with its 360° view so I'm not the biggest fan of the isometric approach, though I did enjoy Sacred (a German CRPG) that used this visual representation. I understand it definitely saves on rendering the environment!

I guess I'll give it a go, and real time laudable combat is what I like.


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Oceanshieldwolf wrote:


I guess I'll give it a go, and real time laudable combat is what I like.

Or even real time pausable combat. Love that autoincorrect.

Silver Crusade

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Steve Geddes wrote:

I guess I'm thinking in terms of movies - I like attractive superheroes or whatever as idealised, admittedly unrealistic characters. I hadn't really considered it in terms of "identifying with" them.

Cheers.

Ever watched "Machete" (Dany Trejo)? That man sure doesn't fall into the 'Conventionally attractive' representation of a (somewhat) hero.

-------------------------

It being a CRPG, the question of "romanceable NPC's" comes to mind.
I hope at least some of the NPC's are approachable, regardless of the sex of your PC.

-------------------------

So, it's a single-player game, did I get that right? Co-op would have been nice.

Silver Crusade

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One would hope romance is on the table, especially since Ruler and Consort are both Kingdom roles.

Dark Archive

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Speaking of which, I wonder if this game has PC character being the king or if you can be one of the other roles .-. And if it has same thing of recruiting npcs to fill the roles. I kinda hope they don't get rid of those parts of kingmaker

Dark Archive

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Delightful wrote:
LuniasM wrote:
Delightful wrote:
Also, in terms of queer people I really do wish not every (as far I know) transperson depicted so far was the magical equivalent of post-op. Having trans people pre-op and not conventionally attractive would be nice.
Iconic Shaman says hi!
Shardra's not conventionally attractive? I guess she's short but I definitely wouldn't mark her as not attractive by most people's standards. Different strokes for different folks I suppose.

I'd like to clarify. My understanding of conventional beauty standards is that they are incredibly specific and unrealistic - underweight, fair skin without blemishes, fit but not muscle-bound, etc. The majority of people don't fit these standards, and that's not a bad thing. They create unfair expectations and lead people into unhealthy diets and eating disorders just to achieve.

Long story short, conventional beauty standards are archaic and extremely limited in their definition of beauty. People can lack conventionally beauty and still be beautiful / attractive.

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