Do Fighters Finally Not Suck?!

[Triune]

So I was looking at making a new character for an upcoming campain, and decided to look at a straight fighter to challenge myself a bit. In my current campaign I'm playing a wizard at 13th level, and the power discrepancy between me and the rest of the group has gotten a little out of hand (I'm the only caster in the group as well, which only magnifies things).

However, I was really surprised at how much better the fighter is since I last looked at it. Advanced weapon training seems to be the main culprit here, the options it gives you really shore up the fighters weaknesses. Poor saves? Not anymore. Horrible skills per level? No longer a concern. Heck, it even looks like they made throwing builds viable (never thought I'd see the day...). This, combined with some of the new weapon style feats and advanced armor training stuff, and even some nice archetypes (looking at you lore warden), seems to all come together and make the fighter a nice, well rounded martial character. A bit simple in actual combat, but with some more options and nice for those seeking a straightforward playstyle. It's still not on the level of full casters in actual power, but it no longer feels like hot garbage like the core fighter did.

So what do you guys think? Is the fighter finally in a good place, or am I just excited it's no longer in as terrible of one?

[Glorf Fei-Hung]

I'm not sure exactly what you're referencing... most of the points you make are things fighters have straight out of the CRB... So it's not like there's some massive shift in what fighters are now vs what they were at any other point in Pathfinder's lifespan.

[GM Rednal]

Things like Combat Stamina rules and the Weapon Master's Handbook have helped, but the problem with the Fighter was never its ability to perform in combat...

[Triune]

Glorf Fei-Hung wrote:

I'm not sure exactly what you're referencing... most of the points you make are things fighters have straight out of the CRB... So it's not like there's some massive shift in what fighters are now vs what they were at any other point in Pathfinder's lifespan.

As I said in the post, advanced weapon training seems to be the main culprit (weapon master handbook, NOT the same as regular weapon training at all).

Weapon styles, advanced weapon training, advanced armor training, and archetypes are all not in the core book.

[Ravingdork]

Yeah, the Combat Stamina rules, Weapon Master's Handbook, and Armor Master's Handbook have all done a great deal for boosting fighters, minimizing their weaknesses and giving them tons of new options, both in and out of combat.

Heck, I was able to make a skillful fighter, without having to seriously impact his combat ability--something heretofore not really seen before.

He has a whopping 14 maxed out skills! On a fighter! That's more than most rogues!

(Guess we need to beef up rogues some more now. lol.)

Whoever thought of replacing the fighter's redundant abilities with things that are actually quite useful seriously needs to get a pay raise (and more work with Paizo!).

Triune wrote:

Heck, it even looks like they made throwing builds viable (never thought I'd see the day...).

True, but not as viable as archery.

[Tarik Blackhands]

Depends on what you mean by not suck at the end of the day. If by "suck" you mean "Is not a 6/9 or 9/9 caster" then yes, fighters still suck. Alternatively "suck" in the "can't compete with majority full BAB classes" then sure, Fighters certainly don't suck anymore presuming you have access to the right books.

[PossibleCabbage]

Fighters can be pretty good now in the hands of someone with system mastery. I feel like some newbies will gravitate to a fighter with the impression that it's simple, and they're not especially served by things like combat stamina or some of the tricks in recent Player Companions.

Not quite up there with the Barbarian, I think, but a well-built fighter pulls their weight well up until the level when casters just take over.

[doc roc]

Agreed... fighters can be pretty good but you really have to know your onions.

[Garbage-Tier Waifu]

Since Item Mastery+Barroom Brawler shenanigans, I've come to consider fighters as odd-duck 5/9th casters. They don't have as many spells to cast per day, but they do have a lot of spells available to them that create answers to problems historically not many martials can overcome. When I'm the one pulling out solutions normally only handled by arcane spellcasters or divine spellcasters, or even solutions from both, I know fighters have evolved to become something more. I can appreciate that.

[Claxon]

If you have good system mastery to know all the options available you can make a very strong character, who sits just below 6th level casters.

However, if you aren't aware of those options you will end up with a boring and bland character.

[Jonathon Wilder]

If you really want to embrace the idea of fighters not sucking, with consideration of Weapon Master's Handbook, Armour Master's Handbook, and the Stamina system introduced in Pathfinder Unchained... I would unequivocally recommend the Everyman Unchained: Fighters, as there is no other supplement that truly provides as much versatility, options, or attractiveness for playing a fighter and is exactly what Paizo should have done.

[Snowlilly]

doc roc wrote:

Agreed... fighters can be pretty good but you really have to know your onions.

I don't have an issue with some classes requiring more system mastery for optimization than other classes.

[Δaedalus]

doc roc wrote:

Agreed... fighters can be pretty good but you really have to know your onions.

Ah, just put a rank into profession (cook) every level and you'll be fine. Or would it be profession (gardener or herbalist)?

[PossibleCabbage]

Snowlilly wrote:

doc roc wrote:

Agreed... fighters can be pretty good but you really have to know your onions.

I don't have an issue with some classes requiring more system mastery for optimization than other classes.

Indeed, there should be "easy" classes to go with "intermediate" classes to go with "advanced classes" because different people like different levels of complexity.

It's just somewhat noteworthy that among the most complex classes in Pathfinder to build and play successfully is the iconic "guy with the sword."

I guess the Unchained Barbarian is the easy "I have a sword and I smack people with it" class?

[Snowlilly]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I guess the Unchained Barbarian is the easy "I have a sword and I smack people with it" class?

The reason my wife plays a barbarian, not a fighter.

[Davia D]

The big problems I see with fighters remains-

One, feat tax. Sure, you have extra feats, but when you've got to spend multiple to get stuff, and removing simple penalties like 'firing into melee,' costs a feat, it adds up (It takes a feat for using a Dex based weapon to be good. It takes a feat to use a stronger weapon. It takes 2 feats to be a competent archer, 4 to be a good one... and that means you're well into the mid levels and still not gotten basics like power attack for the melee side. Spring attack, to let you be a hit-and-run fighter, has two prerequisits). It hurts them at lower levels and it means you can't be multi-talented for some time.

Two, once a feat chain is complete... you need to go back to getting low-level prereqs before you get good ones again, which hurts you at higher levels since once you finally get something big and cool, you generally need to go to something small and minor again, while your friends are getting big and cool stuff with each class ability.

Feats are a fairly weak thing to get and Fighters revolve around them, so..... yea.

I really feel like Martial characters need to be more over-the-top with their abilities, more supernatural dare I say? Barbarian Rage powers and Vigilante Talents can get some of this stuff, but feats tend to still be stuck in 'give bonus to swing sword.' Fighters don't even have a good way to get *pounce* (i.e. 'full attack on a charge'), not even at high levels, and even stuff you picture anyone at higher skill doing like Spring Attack isn't always worth the feats.

You *can* make strong Fighters as people have said, but you need to know your system mastery, and I generally prefer Barbarians and Avenger Vigilantes for martials due to the lack of feat tax equivalent to get their special hitting powers.

[Secret Wizard]

Please check my Fighter builds, OP

They are all PFS legal. You can get them even better by tossing Smash from the Air in there somewhere.

This all being said, Lore Warden nerfs incoming (well-deserved).

[Chess Pwn]

Secret Wizard wrote:

Please check my Fighter builds, OP

They are all PFS legal. You can get them even better by tossing Smash from the Air in there somewhere.

This all being said, Lore Warden nerfs incoming (well-deserved).

yeah, they are decent, but you can build better versions of them with different classes.

[Davia D]

If I did make a fighter, I'd definitely want to go Human (because the way feat chains work, being one up on them is more important), and use a build guide like Secret Wizard's there.

[MageHunter]

I actually really like the Martial Master Archetype. Martial Flexibility, but with all the bonus feats of a fighter.

True, they don't get access to Advanced Weapon Training, but if you can always compensate for weaknesses in other ways.

[Grandlounge]

MageHunter wrote:

I actually really like the Martial Master Archetype. Martial Flexibility, but with all the bonus feats of a fighter.

True, they don't get access to Advanced Weapon Training, but if you can always compensate for weaknesses in other ways.

It also stacks with fun options.

[Secret Wizard]

Chess Pwn wrote:

Secret Wizard wrote:

Please check my Fighter builds, OP

They are all PFS legal. You can get them even better by tossing Smash from the Air in there somewhere.

This all being said, Lore Warden nerfs incoming (well-deserved).

yeah, they are decent, but you can build better versions of them with different classes.

No, not really.

Marauder has full DR 11/-, good Fort/Ref/Will saves, point control and shrugs off incoming attacks, all while having nonmagical AC of full plate, AWT: Defensive Weapon Training and Armor Training. I can't think of any other build that can do what this guy does well. A Barb? Maybe, but not without giving up protection and point-control.

Marksman does a ton of fun stuff with ranged combat maneuvers which no other class can do well. Zen Archers suck for hitting CMD because they have no boosts to it, and no other class has access to the Ace Trip/Disarm tricks with Martial Focus... and not all classes have access to extra feats for Martial Focus.

Hoplite is another way of doing the Marauder, with more focus on skills and defense. Basically same build, different flavor.

The one with the spear chucking is pretty versatile. Not groundbreaking, but very serviceable.

The bullrush one cannot be made with any other class.

B*~++%&~ walks. Show the builds.

[Isonaroc]

While I do rail on and on about martial/caster disparity, in seriousness the fight doesn't suck in and of itself. It's good at what it does. The problem was always that what it does was always fairly limited. The additions from AMH and WMH have really helped broaden versatility, though I would argue that they are still fairly limited when compared to other classes.

[Chess Pwn]

Secret Wizard wrote:

Chess Pwn wrote:

Secret Wizard wrote:

Please check my Fighter builds, OP

They are all PFS legal. You can get them even better by tossing Smash from the Air in there somewhere.

This all being said, Lore Warden nerfs incoming (well-deserved).

yeah, they are decent, but you can build better versions of them with different classes.

No, not really.

Marauder has full DR 11/-, good Fort/Ref/Will saves, point control and shrugs off incoming attacks, all while having nonmagical AC of full plate, AWT: Defensive Weapon Training and Armor Training. I can't think of any other build that can do what this guy does well. A Barb? Maybe, but not without giving up protection and point-control.

Marksman does a ton of fun stuff with ranged combat maneuvers which no other class can do well. Zen Archers suck for hitting CMD because they have no boosts to it, and no other class has access to the Ace Trip/Disarm tricks with Martial Focus... and not all classes have access to extra feats for Martial Focus.

Hoplite is another way of doing the Marauder, with more focus on skills and defense. Basically same build, different flavor.

The one with the spear chucking is pretty versatile. Not groundbreaking, but very serviceable.

The bullrush one cannot be made with any other class.

B!@@$@%% walks. Show the builds.

Fortunately I already did in another thread, so it's easy to copy paste them here.

the marauder:

THE MARAUDER
lv12 expected gold: 108,000 gp
Adamantine +1 ghost touch o-yoroi = 20,700 gp for 9 AC and 3 DR max dex 2
Gloves of Dueling = 15,000 gp
Sash of the War Champion = 4,000 gp
Belt of Physical Perfection = 16,000 gp
Cap of the Free Thinker = 12,000 gp
+1 courageous greataxe = 8,300 gp
total = 76,000 gp spent. 32,000 gp remaining
HP 125 includes FCB
Saves 11/12/11
AC = 24, DR 6/-

attack +1 courageous greataxe +23/+18/+13 1d12+14 19-20/3 DPR against CR 12 is 44
PA +19/+14/+9 1d12+26 DPR against CR 12 is 48.4

skills
4 per level till 5 then 6 per level.
Skills are perception, climb, sense motive, survival, and 24 points

build really improves by numbers last 4 levels
Goal is be a generic front liner that eventually can stay on casters to increase their defensive casting DC.

My compared build will leave 32,000 gp off and not buy cloak, ring, or amulet of natural armor.

THE MARKSMAN:

THE MARKSMAN
lv12 expected gold: 108,000 gp
Armor is missing assuming mithral chain shirt +3 = 10,100 gp
Gloves of Dueling = 15,000 gp
Greater Bracers of Archery = 25,000 gp
Belt of Physical Perfection = 16,000 gp
Cap of the Free Thinker = 12,000 gp
+2 Adaptive composite longbow = 9,400 gp
total = 87,500 gp spent. 20,500 gp remaining
HP 101 includes FCB
Saves 10/14/6
AC = 23

attack+2 Adaptive composite longbow +25/+25/+20/+15 1d8+13 20/x3 DPR against CR 12 is 75.3
DA +21/+21/+16/+11 1d12+21 DPR against CR 12 is 82.2

skills
7 per level, 2 must be int based

Chess Pwn wrote:

The reflex boost and the will save boost of +4 seems like it'll be a harder thing to match, especially since these are solo class comparisons.

Comparison goal is either to have bigger numbers, Or close numbers and bringing more to the table.

THE MARAUDER v2:

The marauder strikes with heavy melee attacks while being able to take a lot of punishment. Later on, it moves to improve its ability to stop missiles, dodge magical effects, keep enemies in range and harry spellcasters.
Archetype: Invulnerable Rager
Race: Human
Attributes at creation: STR 16+2 / DEX 15 / CON 14 / INT 12 / WIS 10 / CHA 7
Traits: Deft Dodger (+1 Reflex saves), Indomitable Faith (+1 Will saves)
Feats and Progression:
Feat: Power Attack; Human Bonus Feat: Iron Will
Rage power: Superstition
Feat: Step up
Rage power: Lesser Beast Totem; Pip: +1 DEX
Feat: Martial Focus
Rage power: Beast Totem
Feat: Combat Reflexes
Rage power: Disruptive; Pip: +1 STR
Feat: Cut from the Air
Rage power: Greater Beast Totem
Feat: Extra Rage Power (Eater of Magic)
Rage power:Spellbreaker; Pip: +1 STR
Equipment Suggestions:, Belt of Physical Perfection, Headband of inspired wisdom +4, Buffering Cap, +2 ghost-touch Mithral Breastplate, +2 Furious Greataxe.

I have 10,450 gp leftover of my 76,000 available

HP 128 includes 3 fcb or 164 while raging
Saves 11/9/9 or 22/17/17 while raging, superstition FCBx9
AC = 26 or 24 while raging, DR 6/- Fire resist 3 and free endure elements heat

Raging attack +2 Furious greataxe +25/+20/+15 1d12+18 20/3 DPR against CR 12 is 56.6
Raging PA +21/+16/+11 1d12+30 DPR against CR 12 is 60.2

skills
6 per level, always
Skills are perception, climb, sense motive, survival, and 24 points

So let’s see; Vastly better saves, Quite better damage, equal AC and lots more HP in combat and I have pounce. More HP and better AC, but a little lower saves out of combat. Equal skills but little better wis based skills. With a less expensive build. With 40ft movespeed.

This to me seems better

THE MARKSMAN v2 Monk:

The marksman uses its great feat selection to improve its ability to shoot from long, medium and close range, while also providing the party with utility through knowledges and combat tricks like the ability to bring down flying targets.
Archetype: Zen Archer Monk
Race: Human
Attributes at creation: STR 15 / DEX 10 / CON 12 / INT 14 / WIS 16+2 / CHA 7
Traits: Wisdom in the Flesh (acrobatics), Deft Dodger (+1 Reflex saves)
Feats and Progression:
Feat: Lightning Reflexes Bonus Feat: Point-Blank Shot, Perfect Strike; Human Bonus Feat: Toughness
Bonus Feat: Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow);
Feat: Deadly Aim; Bonus Feat:Point-Blank Master
Pip: +1 STR
Feat:Deific Obedience (Irori);
Bonus Feat: Improved Precise Shot, Weapon Specialization (longbow)
Feat: Ranged Trip
Pip: +1 WIS
Feat: Ranged Disarm
Bonus Feat: Manyshot
Feat: Clustered Shots
Pip: +1 WIS
Equipment Suggestions: Headband of inspired wisdom +4, Belt of Physical Perfection, Cap of the Free Thinker, Bracers of Archery, Longbow.
HP 99 includes FCB
Saves 10/12/15
AC = 21

attack+2 Adaptive composite longbow +22/+22/+22/+17/+17/+12 1d8+9 20/x3 DPR against CR 12 is 67.2
DA +21/+21/+16/+11 1d12+21 DPR against CR 12 is 74.4

skills
7 per level, higher knowledge skills.

A little lower damage for slightly better saves. Plus all the monk powers available. Can’t drop targets from the air.

THE MARKSMAN v2 Medium:

The marksman uses its ability to shoot from range, while also providing the party with utility through knowledges and some spells
Archetype: Wendo Caller Medium
Race: Human
Attributes at creation: STR 13 / DEX 16+2 / CON 12 / INT 14 / WIS 8 / CHA 12
Traits: Deadeye Bowman, Indomitable Faith (+1 Will saves)
Feats and Progression:
Feat: Point-Blank Shot; Human Bonus Feat: Precise Shot
Feat: Rapid Shot
Pip: +1 STR
Feat: Deadly Aim

Feat: Spirit Focus (Champion)
Pip: +1 DEX
Feat: Manyshot;

Feat: Clustered Shots
Pip: +1 DEX
Equipment Suggestions: Headband of alluring charisma +4, Belt of Physical Perfection, Cap of the Free Thinker, Bracers of Archery, Longbow.

You have at least 4 castings of heroism at 2 hours a cast, so it’s assumed up
HP 99 includes FCB
Saves 13/12/10
AC = 23

attack+2 Adaptive composite longbow +24/+24/+24/+19 1d8+12 20/x3 DPR against CR 12 is 75.6
DA +21/+21/+21/+16 1d8+18 DPR against CR 12 is 84.9

skills
7 per level, higher knowledge skills, higher all skills with heroism

I have overall better saves, better skills, same combat stats and I have spells, plus spirit surge adding 1d8 on a few attack rolls or fort saves. I can also speak with dead, animals, plants, and tongues 12 minutes per day. And kinda a domain thing. But I do take 12 non-lethal damage a day that can’t be healed. Though they can trade the non-lethal damage for a little lower knowledge skills and no domain if you wanted with relic channeler. I don’t do maneuvers at range though.

THE MARKSMAN v2 Warpriest:

The marksman uses its great feat selection to improve its ability to shoot from long, medium and close range, while also providing the party with utility through spells and combat tricks like the ability to bring down flying targets.
Archetype: Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest
Race: Human
Attributes at creation: STR 15 / DEX 16+2 / CON 12 / INT 10 / WIS 14 / CHA 7
Traits: Seeker (+1 to Perception, class skill), Fate’s Favored
Feats and Progression:
Feat: Point-Blank Shot; Bonus Feat: Weapon Focus (longbow); Human Bonus Feat: Toughness
Feat: Precise Shot; Bonus Feat: Rapid Shot
Pip: +1 STR
Feat: Deadly Aim; Weapon Training: Bows
Bonus Feat: Weapon Specialization (longbow), Point-Blank Master
Feat: Ranged Trip
Pip: +1 DEX
Feat: Manyshot; Bonus Feat: Ace Trip

Feat: Clustered Shots
Bonus Feat: Improved Precise Shot, Ranged Disarm; Pip: +1 DEX
Equipment Suggestions: Gloves of Dueling, Belt of Physical Perfection, Cap of the Free Thinker, Bracers of Archery; Longbow.

HP 99
Saves 10/10/10
AC = 23

Round1 fervor
attack+2 Adaptive composite longbow +26/+26/+21 1d8+17 20/x3 DPR against CR 12 is 83.1
DA +23/+23/+18 1d8+23 DPR against CR 12 is 93
Round2 Sacred weapon
attack+5 Adaptive composite longbow +29/+29/+24 1d8+20 20/x3 DPR against CR 12 is 98.7
DA +26/+26/+21 1d8+26 DPR against CR 12 is 117.9
Round3 War Blessing

skills
3 per level

Instead of knowledge skills I have 4th level cleric spells. Damage is higher and much higher round 2. Saves I have better will but worse ref. Same combat options

THE MARKSMAN v2 Ranger:

The marksman uses its great feat selection to improve its ability to shoot from long, medium and close range, while also providing the party with utility through knowledges, animal companion and spells.
Archetype: Nirmathi Irregular
Race: Human
Attributes at creation: STR 15 / DEX 16+2 / CON 12 / INT 10 / WIS 14 / CHA 7
Traits: Resilient (Fortitude +1), Indomitable Faith (Will +1)
Feats and Progression:
Feat: Point-Blank Shot; Human Bonus Feat: Precise Shot
Bonus Feat: Rapid Shot
Feat: Weapon Focus (longbow)
Pip: +1 STR
Feat:Deadly Aim; Weapon Training: Bows
Bonus Feat: Improved Precise Shot
Feat: Iron Will
Pip: +1 DEX
Feat: Manyshot;
Bonus Feat: Point-Blank Master
Feat: Clustered Shots
Pip: +1 DEX
Equipment Suggestions: Headband of inspired wisdom +4, Belt of Physical Perfection, Cap of the Free Thinker, Bracers of Archery; Longbow.
HP 101 includes FCB
Saves 11/14/11
AC = 23

Hunter’s Howl making anything a FE
attack+2 Adaptive composite longbow +27/+27/+22/+17 1d8+13 20/x3 DPR against CR 12 is 79.2
DA +23/+23/+18/+13 1d12+21 DPR against CR 12 is 96

skills
7 per level

I have evasion, spells and an animal companion but I can’t do the ranged maneuvers. Heightened Awareness can bridge the knowledge gap from the lower int.

THE MARKSMAN v2 Investigator:

The marksman uses its ability to shoot within 30ft, while also providing the party with utility through knowledges, extracts and sickening hit enemies.
Archetype: Investigator
Race: Human
Attributes at creation: STR 15 / DEX 16+2 / CON 12 / INT 14 / WIS 10 / CHA 7
Traits: Resilient (Fortitude +1), Deadeye Bowman
Feats and Progression:
Feat: Point-Blank Shot; Human Bonus Feat: Precise Shot
Talent: Dex Mutagen; Feat: Rapid Shot
Pip: +1 STR
Talent: Infusion; Feat: Weapon Focus (longbow)

Talent: Quick Study; Feat: Ranged Study
Pip: +1 DEX
Talent: Combat Inspiration; Feat: Manyshot;

Talent: Sickening Offensive; Feat: Deadly Aim
Pip: +1 DEX
Equipment Suggestions: Headband of vast Intelligence +4, Belt of Physical Perfection, Cap of the Free Thinker, Bracers of Archery; Longbow.

Heroism, mutagen and studied combat will be factored in, uses barkskin instead of amulet but that’s not figured in this comparison
HP 87 includes FCB has false life available
Saves 9/16/9 immune to poison
AC = 23

attack+2 Adaptive composite longbow +28/+28/+23 1d8+13 20/x3 DPR against CR 12 is 67.9
DA +25/+25/+20 1d8+21 DPR against CR 12 is 95.6

skills
11 per level and free inspiration for knowledges

So I win on spells, knowledges, damage, skills, and saves. Same AC and lower HP. Instead of bringing fliers down to the ground I pass out extracts and sicken any target I hit that I’ve studied. Must be within 30ft for my big +6 to hit and +6 damage per shot though.

The Hoplite,
Hurtful is not a PFS legal feat.

this is a reach build with a point at having good AC while sacrificing damage and 6 skills per level. The only unique thing is passing out +4 to mind affecting will saves.

[Rhedyn]

Triune wrote:

So I was looking at making a new character for an upcoming campain, and decided to look at a straight fighter to challenge myself a bit. In my current campaign I'm playing a wizard at 13th level, and the power discrepancy between me and the rest of the group has gotten a little out of hand (I'm the only caster in the group as well, which only magnifies things).

However, I was really surprised at how much better the fighter is since I last looked at it. Advanced weapon training seems to be the main culprit here, the options it gives you really shore up the fighters weaknesses. Poor saves? Not anymore. Horrible skills per level? No longer a concern. Heck, it even looks like they made throwing builds viable (never thought I'd see the day...). This, combined with some of the new weapon style feats and advanced armor training stuff, and even some nice archetypes (looking at you lore warden), seems to all come together and make the fighter a nice, well rounded martial character. A bit simple in actual combat, but with some more options and nice for those seeking a straightforward playstyle. It's still not on the level of full casters in actual power, but it no longer feels like hot garbage like the core fighter did.

So what do you guys think? Is the fighter finally in a good place, or am I just excited it's no longer in as terrible of one?

It's that one. True fighter's still suffer from, "I don't have spells" or better phrased "I don't have a toolbox that lets me reshape the battle field and non-combat scenarios in ways that transcends the general mechanics"

[Davia D]

Rhedyn wrote:

It's that one. True fighter's still suffer from, "I don't have spells" or better phrased "I don't have a toolbox that lets me reshape the battle field and non-combat scenarios in ways that transcends the general mechanics"

Right. And even for more basic tools, they don't have skillpoints or class abilities for non-combat work. Unless you want to spend your feats on something social and such, which is only occasionally worth any payback of note.

[Rednal]

It helps if you buy skill kits, but that's really only a patch on the fundamental problem there. XD

[Secret Wizard]

@Chess Pwn:

All competitive builds, but not quite there.

On the Marauder comparison:
- Fighter you built is spending gold on a Sash of the War Champion it doesn't need. Should have 18 DEX after items, Armor Training III, works perfectly with common Full Plate for +4 MAX DEX.
- You gave the Barb a Buffering Cap while keeping the Cap of the Free Thinker on my Fighter. That's where the 10k gold advantage came from your build.
- Forgot to mention the Barb has to save against helpful spells that you may need in combat.
- If we really want to munchkin this one out, we need to be comparing damage while using falchions, because my build takes Critical Focus and yours doesn't.
- Courageous is a terrible buy at this level. That needs to be a +2 weapon.
- My build is spending a feat on Cosmopolitan for s#@+s and giggles. Could easily take Adaptable Training twice, shuffling feats around and replacing Versatile Training, to take Defensive Weapon Training instead. With a +2 weapon, that's standing on 27 AC (before rings and amulets) constantly.

On Marksman (really didn't try on this one, dude):
- Damage is wrong. You are missing Know Thy Enemy for +2 attack/damage.
- No where are the CMB's of these builds listed. Between Know Thy Enemy and Maneuver Mastery, Lore Warden CMB should leave all others to shame. Should be around +33 (12 BAB + 6 DEX + 2 enhancement + 1 weapon focus + 4 Weapon Training + 6 Maneuver Mastery + 2 Know Thy Enemy). Just for an example, your Zen Archer's CMB is +19 (9 BAB + 7 WIS + 1 Weapon Focus + 2 enhancement). Versus CR 12, your Zen Archer hits on a 16. My Lore Warden on a damn 2. This is the hallmark of this build.

[Chess Pwn]

Your Marauder lists Sash of the War Champion

Quote:

Equipment Suggestions: Gloves of Dueling, Sash of the War Champion, Belt of Physical Perfection, Cap of the Free Thinker, ghost-touch adamantine O-Yoroi, courageous Greataxe.

so that's on you. But losing it also lowers your will save.

the barb doesn't need the cap of the free thinker cause his saves are better. If you don't like that it's fine. In the original build I asked if you had any equipment changes you wanted to make on your build.

I didn't forget, but it doesn't matter, what spells are needing to target the barb after he starts raging? If you need/want haste and fly you get those then start raging.

The damage is so far in favor of the barbarian that comparing with any weapon wont alter the DPR enough to really matter. But again, I was just going off of YOUR GEAR listed. Same with Courageous, THAT WAS YOUR GEAR LISTED.

For the marksman, Lore warden breaks CMB, everyone knows that. The builds that use maneuvers should do so against enemies that it has a good chance of working on, but most of them are providing support other than "he ability to bring down flying targets". But you are correct that I did fail to catch know thy enemy, but that's a standard action per enemy that you want it on, so that REALLY sets your DPR back as it takes you 2 turns to have your first attack while all my builds are full attacking from round 1.

[Secret Wizard]

Quote:

The damage is so far in favor of the barbarian that comparing with any weapon wont alter the DPR enough to really matter. But again, I was just going off of YOUR GEAR listed. Same with Courageous, THAT WAS YOUR GEAR LISTED.

It's suggested as a guideline to buy for each slot. Note the lack of +Xs, this is because it's assumed you'll buy these when it's economically expedient.

[SorrySleeping]

Ravingdork wrote:

Heck, I was able to make a skillful fighter, without having to seriously impact his combat ability--something heretofore not really seen before.

He has a whopping 14 maxed out skills! On a fighter! That's more than most rogues!

Question: How? d20pfsrd is currently can't look at everything.

2 - Fighter Base
2 - Int
1 - Fast Learner
2 - I believe Armor training, might be weapon, allows you to replace skill ranks if two skills with your BAB
1 - Cunning (Third party?)

That's only 8 skills maxed with a third party feat.

[UnArcaneElection]

Secret Wizard wrote:

{. . .}

This all being said, Lore Warden nerfs incoming (well-deserved).

Lore Worden nerfs incoming? Why, and what?

[Athaleon]

Cunning is a feat from the Villain Codex, (content from which is on neither d20pfsrd nor Archives of Nethys so far) that gives you +1 extra skill point per HD. Long, long overdue feat that should have been in the CRB.

[Secret Wizard]

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Secret Wizard wrote:

{. . .}

This all being said, Lore Warden nerfs incoming (well-deserved).

Lore Worden nerfs incoming? Why, and what?

sidenerfs really

on adventurers guide

[SorrySleeping]

Athaleon wrote:

Cunning is a feat from the Villain Codex, (content from which is on neither d20pfsrd nor Archives of Nethys so far) that gives you +1 extra skill point per HD. Long, long overdue feat that should have been in the CRB.

Google says flaming crab games. I really news to read all of the villain codex.

That still leaves out 6 of the 14 skills points needed to max out skills.

[Jarrahkin]

Quote:

True fighter's still suffer from, "I don't have spells" or better phrased "I don't have a toolbox that lets me reshape the battle field and non-combat scenarios in ways that transcends the general mechanics"

On the other hand, fighters don't spend much in the way of resources doing what they do, so they're just as tough at the end of the day as when they started.

If your sessions have one or two battles between characters resting and getting their spells back, casters can dominate by throwing all their spells as fast as they can. If you play long dungeon crawls, with many battles between naps, the casters get weaker and weaker with each fight, while the fighter just powers on.

[Bluenose]

Jarrahkin wrote:

Quote:

True fighter's still suffer from, "I don't have spells" or better phrased "I don't have a toolbox that lets me reshape the battle field and non-combat scenarios in ways that transcends the general mechanics"

On the other hand, fighters don't spend much in the way of resources doing what they do, so they're just as tough at the end of the day as when they started.

If your sessions have one or two battles between characters resting and getting their spells back, casters can dominate by throwing all their spells as fast as they can. If you play long dungeon crawls, with many battles between naps, the casters get weaker and weaker with each fight, while the fighter just powers on.

Because for sure they don't lose hit points.

[Purple Overkill]

I don´t think it´s really that the Fighter is "bad", bad rather that it´s "bland" because the base class chassis is mainly build around passive abilities, with no real "buttons" to push or resources to spent on gaining a boost on something. The later only being able with itemancy.
AMH/WMH/Combat Endurance no finally opens up choices so a Fighter can at last effect the world around him in a way spell casters can. So it´s not so much that the raw effectiveness has increased, but rather the fun in playing one.

[Jarrahkin]

Bluenose wrote:

Because for sure they don't lose hit points.

Of course they do, but hit points are the easiest resource to replenish, and one of the cheapest, and with a solic AC not as easy to take from a fighter as most other classes.

Plus they have plenty to lose (by comparison) and if they're losing them, so is everybody else.

[FormerFiend]

Personally I'd go so far as to argue that the advanced armor & weapon training abilities should be standard and come with the basic abilities of weapon & armor training rather than be options that you can switch those other abilities out for.

I get why they did it the way they did, but I'd prefer to have seen these things as just being an extra bonus thing that fighters could have gotten in, say, Unchained.

[Derklord]

Isonaroc wrote:

While I do rail on and on about martial/caster disparity, in seriousness the fight doesn't suck in and of itself. It's good at what it does.

I disagree - a vanilla Fighter is easy to take out and at mid levels isn't good at attacking if only you stay out of his reach (since, you know, no pounce). "Role: Fighters excel at combat" - yeah, sorry, no.

Davia D wrote:

I really feel like Martial characters need to be more over-the-top with their abilities, more supernatural dare I say?

That is exactly why Fighter is way better than it used to be. With Mutation Warrior, Item Mastery feats, and Warrior Spirit, Fighters now have non-mundane abilities. At the same time, AWT and others (partially) fixed some of the weaknesses it should never have had.

@Jarrahkin: Apart from the fact that there are plenty of classes with stuff they never run out of either (like a Witch's hexes, a Summoner's Eidolon, or a Druid's Wildshape after a few levels), a Fighter will normally run out of HP before the casters run out of spells. That's if he doesn't fail a critical will save first. I'd say HP are significantly harder to take from the invisibly flying caster than from the guy who stands in front with low reflex save.

[Bob Bob Bob]

SorrySleeping wrote:

Athaleon wrote:

Cunning is a feat from the Villain Codex, (content from which is on neither d20pfsrd nor Archives of Nethys so far) that gives you +1 extra skill point per HD. Long, long overdue feat that should have been in the CRB.

Google says flaming crab games. I really news to read all of the villain codex.

That still leaves out 6 of the 14 skills points needed to max out skills.

The AAT option can be taken four times for one skill each. The AWT option can be be taken twice and gives you two skills at max. Together that's 8 skills. Two for base, two for Int, one for FCB, one for Cunning (as you already listed), that's 14.

[Isonaroc]

Derklord wrote:

Isonaroc wrote:

While I do rail on and on about martial/caster disparity, in seriousness the fight doesn't suck in and of itself. It's good at what it does.

I disagree - a vanilla Fighter is easy to take out and at mid levels isn't good at attacking if only you stay out of his reach (since, you know, no pounce). "Role: Fighters excel at combat" - yeah, sorry, no.

You're being broader than I intended. Fighters don't excel at combat, they excel at doing physical damage (not the same thing).

[SorrySleeping]

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

SorrySleeping wrote:

Athaleon wrote:

Cunning is a feat from the Villain Codex, (content from which is on neither d20pfsrd nor Archives of Nethys so far) that gives you +1 extra skill point per HD. Long, long overdue feat that should have been in the CRB.

Google says flaming crab games. I really news to read all of the villain codex.

That still leaves out 6 of the 14 skills points needed to max out skills.

The AAT option can be taken four times for one skill each. The AWT option can be be taken twice and gives you two skills at max. Together that's 8 skills. Two for base, two for Int, one for FCB, one for Cunning (as you already listed), that's 14.

Didn't realize armor and weapon training had skill point replacements. I'll have to make a skill monkey fighter sometime.

[Jonathon Wilder]

FormerFiend wrote:

Personally I'd go so far as to argue that the advanced armor & weapon training abilities should be standard and come with the basic abilities of weapon & armor training rather than be options that you can switch those other abilities out for.

I get why they did it the way they did, but I'd prefer to have seen these things as just being an extra bonus thing that fighters could have gotten in, say, Unchained.

Look up Everyman Unchained: Fighters, it does exactly you're describing above and more.

[Triune]

Jarrahkin wrote:

Quote:

True fighter's still suffer from, "I don't have spells" or better phrased "I don't have a toolbox that lets me reshape the battle field and non-combat scenarios in ways that transcends the general mechanics"

On the other hand, fighters don't spend much in the way of resources doing what they do, so they're just as tough at the end of the day as when they started.

If your sessions have one or two battles between characters resting and getting their spells back, casters can dominate by throwing all their spells as fast as they can. If you play long dungeon crawls, with many battles between naps, the casters get weaker and weaker with each fight, while the fighter just powers on.

Sorry, but I just wanna dispel this myth right here. I've played my current wizard from 1-13. I've NEVER run out of spells, and we've had multiple days with 6 combats for the day. 9 level casters don't need to cast their highest level spell each round to be effective. Often my wizard would cast one encounter winning lower than max level spell and be fine for the fight. That's how strong spells are.

Furthermore, spell slots with a school specialization (or domain, or what have you) and high casting stat get so plentiful by level 8 or so that even in the case of a multitude of tough combats smart play will leave you with plenty of wiggle room. That and smart user of scribe scroll (the best feat everyone forgets about) make limited spell slots almost a non issue.

I'm excited the fighter is in a better place. But it's compared to other martials and some 6 level casters (stupid broken summoner). Speaking from experience, 9 level casters are still in a whole different ballpark.

[Purple Overkill]

@Triune:

The problem is that we´re always talking about this in a vacuum. We talk about the bottom and ceiling possible power of a class, we talk about what individual affects certain games elements can have, but we mostly refrain talking about the exact game environment all of these are going to put into use.

It´s interesting to fine-comb some APs to see what you actually need (skills, abilities) and contrast that to what you "need" because you´re the initiator of the ability.

[Jonathon Wilder]

Triune - Which is why I use Spheres of Power, as this better balances magic with melee a bit more.

[GM Rednal]

Specifically, it makes magic more linear in growth, rather than each spell level being drastically stronger than the level before.

There's a wiki here if you're interested in checking it out.

[Joshua9093]

Secret Wizard wrote:

Marauder has full DR 11/-

I can only come up with 6 max at 11th level, where are you getting the other 5 DR?