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Monk / ninja ish build


Advice


So I'm thinking of making a charisma based monk/ninja kind of melee attacker (for PFS)* with the following level progression

Urban Bloodrager with protector familiar
Scaled Fist Unchained Monk
Ninja
Ninja
Sacred attendant Cleric worshiping Torag
Scaled Fist Unchained Monk
paladin
paladin
Avenger vigilante
Avenger vigilante
champion spirit medium

race Nagaji
stats 18/12/14/5/12/16

feats all I know I want are extra rage, power attack, and boon companion.

Any thoughts on changing the order of the classes? Any thoughts on if there's a domain choice that matters for the lv1 dip into cleric. Thoughts on feats that might work well with the build.

*Edited


What a difficult and difficult life a person has...

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I feel like you're really stretching it calling it a "monk/ninjaish" build, since you have an equal number of levels of monk, ninja, paladin and vigilante, with a few other things tossed in.

That said, I do have a gnome who has 5 classes just because he keeps wanting to try what all his friends are doing...


Can you first explain the objectives of this build?

Looks like:
- Bloodrager for Rage
- Monk for Flurry, Cha to AC, Evasion
- Paladin for Cha to Saves, Smite Evil 1/day
- Avenger Vigilante for... reasons.
- I'm not familiar enough with the Medium to pick up what you are throwing down.
- Sacred Attendant for restoring Charisma?
- Ninja for Ki Pool via Cha

First, if I'm right, skip Bloodrager in favor of Variant Multiclass Barbarian. You'll get more rounds of Rage (though you'll have to wait until 3rd level).


The thing is though is that he'll play very much like a monk/ninja. He'll be unarmored with a weapon using ki points. Thus I feel like that is the most defining feature of him.

Paladin is to help his saves, vigilante is to get more skills and Shield of Blades to have more AC when attacking, the second level of monk is for evasion since I'll have a good reflex save, cleric is for 1 AC and channels which can be converted to Ki points via meditation crystal, and the bloodrager for a protector familiar and rage without AC penalty. Medium gives +3 damage per hit.

This is for PFS so VMC is out.


Shield of Blades is awesome, but I don't know if it's worth sinking two levels for. Also, note that when you use it, you have to accept the penalty (any negation of it negates the shielding ability) so you might be struggling to hit when you aren't raging.

Unless you've got something specific in mind, Dragon Style would probably be a good Monk bonus feat, esp. since you aren't required to have the pre-reqs.

You never explained the level of Medium. Do you have a GM that'll be okay with both a Spirit and Familiar in tow?

Also, why go the route of Ninja class at all? You've got a Charisma based Ki Pool as a 3rd level Monk.


Dragon style/ferocity.

Metal domain ignors hardness for UAS
Law touch of law is OK
Loyality domain is a strong dip +4 sacred bonus agaist chams and compulsions


I'd also recommend the Ghosthunter Paladin Archetype for that situational Ghost Touch ability, which seems much more make or break as opposed to bypassing DR/Good.


the issue with unchained monk Ki attack is that it is required to be an unarmed strike. The ninja's is fine to be a weapon attack. The idea is getting 3 full bab attacks at lv4. And rage should be available all the rounds of all the fights, and I don't bother with reducing power attack penalties since the to hit is usually really good anyways. But that's why I want weapon based is to get the better str and power attack ratios.

monk feats were probably dodge and intimidating prowess

medium gives +3 damage per hit. and their spirit is just the flavor for their bonuses, so i don't see why it and a familiar would be an issue

Liberty's Edge

He's probably thinking of spiritualist?

But yeah, mediums have some casting etc. and as mentioned on base get +3 to non-spell damage if you channel the champion every day.

This build works, it's one of those weird ones I do all the time where you just add in everything that's both a)martial and b) uses charisma.

But also why the heck worship Torag when you could worship http://archivesofnethys.com/DeityDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Arshea

and take: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/mystery-cu ltist/


torag allows for Defensive Strategist to not be flat footed, basically it removes the need for a 2nd level of bloodrager to get this ability.

I'm not seeing exactly what's so awesome about arshea and mystery cultist for PFS.


For leveling order I'd go
Urban barbarian 1
Scaled fist 1
Ninja 1
Ninja 2
Champion medium 1
Scaled fist 2
Paladin 1
Paladin 2

extra rage as an early feat, The champion is a great boost to damage, saves don't become vital until later so you can wait until level 8. AC will be a problem at low levels though, wand of mage armor and potions of shield for that.


Looks like my kind of char. Maxing out Damage, saves and AC.

I'm not sure if Defensive Strategist is really worth it. Torag's Domains suck so hard...

I'm also not sold on shield of blades but the overall package from vigilante is pretty nice.

I'd consider making the char a Switch hitter. Either go Two handed thrower and Rapid Shot or Archery. Either way you'll also need quick draw.

If you do so consider savage technologist barbarian over Bloodrager and find other ways to get a familiar. The Villain Codex added some nice rage powers for ranged barbs.


Not pulling off ranged. With a 12 dex and needing feats for other stuff with no bonus feats I feel there's no way I'd be getting decent at ranged attacks. Plus the ki attack and flurry don't work with ranged.

Defensive strategist gets me 1 AC from dex, 3-4 AC from cha, 1 AC from dodge, 1 AC from cleric, which is 6-7 AC. Plus, with only a 1 level dip and not having swift actions free, are any of the domains really better than the others?

Shield of blades is giving 3 AC for most of every combat for 2 levels, I can't find anything that does better than that.


The following Rage powers make you capable at range even without a lot of DEX:

Furious Barrage (Ex): The barbarian is treated as having
the Rapid Shot feat, but only for the purpose of attacking
with thrown weapons. She need not meet the feat’s
prerequisites. A barbarian must be at least 4th level and
must have the furious draw rage power before selecting
this power.
Furious Draw (Ex): The barbarian is treated as having the
Quick Draw feat.
Savage Hurl (Ex): The barbarian gains a +1 bonus on
ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons that add her
Dexterity bonus to the attack roll. This bonus increases
to +2 at 4th level if the barbarian’s Strength modifier
is at least +4, to +3 at 8th level if her Strength modifier
is at least +6, and to +4 at 12th level if her Strength
modifier is at least +8.

Savage Technologist Broken Rage also helps. Also both Ki and flurry work at range with thrown weapons (Dee Horn Knife). Also Savage Technologist is +2 AC compared to bloodrager.

I'd suggest the following:

stats 18/14/14/5/12/14

Ninja 2
Monk 1
Cleric 1
Hurler Savavage Technologist 2
Ulfen Guard X
Medium 1

Feats
1 PA
3 Extra Rage Power: Furious Draw
5 Extra rage Power Furious Barrage
7 ???
9 ???
11 ???


Okay, sorry but no, this guy isn't going to do ranged. He doesn't have enough barb levels to pull off those rage powers, or have them give big enough bonuses if he grabs them via feats. If he's using feats to get them then he's even more feat starved for ranged feats, plus it's throwing requiring you figure out how to work with that via magic or more feats.

NO.

The point of this guy is to feel more like a monk/ninja and to get 3 full BAB 1.5 str attacks off using a nice THW. Not to be a barbarian throwing things.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

You might want to dip a level of metamorph alchemist. It will cost you 1 point of bab, but it will give you two hour long str buffs from alter self and mutagen.


Imbicatus wrote:
You might want to dip a level of metamorph alchemist. It will cost you 1 point of bab, but it will give you two hour long str buffs from alter self and mutagen.

the mutagen is just 10 minutes still as far as I can tell.

And what would you suggest I take out to fit this in?

And I'm a little wary, cause outside of that small timeframe it doesn't offer me anything, and in PFS where fights in a day can be a long time apart having something so restricted like that which wont get better doesn't seem that appealing.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

I was thinking mutagen was an hour per level, not 10 minutes, my bad. You're right, it's not that great in your case. The alter self benefits can give you scent, a climb speed, or a swim speed, but the natural attacks would be wasted.


Chess Pwn wrote:
The point of this guy is to feel more like a monk/ninja and to get 3 full BAB 1.5 str attacks off using a nice THW. Not to be a barbarian throwing things.

The point is you can do both and still be competitive in both areas due to the flurry ki-pool combo. But if you want ranged attacks for even less investment pick up shuriken.

I've found a way to get a familiar and also take savage technologist levels. Go Savage Technologist and Asmodean Advocate. This actually might be better than going bloodrager/Sacred attendant. However it would mean you miss out on Defensive Strategist.


Alex Mack wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
The point of this guy is to feel more like a monk/ninja and to get 3 full BAB 1.5 str attacks off using a nice THW. Not to be a barbarian throwing things.

The point is you can do both and still be competitive in both areas due to the flurry ki-pool combo. But if you want ranged attacks for even less investment pick up shuriken.

I've found a way to get a familiar and also take savage technologist levels. Go Savage Technologist and Asmodean Advocate. This actually might be better than going bloodrager/Sacred attendant. However it would mean you miss out on Defensive Strategist.

the point is, this character isn't doing range, his cha isn't going to be lowered to up his dex, and he doesn't have the feat support needed to pull off ranged attacks well. There's no point in being a switch hitter, It just causes you to be worse at the thing you do for nothing. Since this guy isn't a ranged guy there's no reason to invest in ranged at all cause he's not going to be using it. Spending the round trying to attack at range is delaying you getting next to the enemy.

Now your idea for trying to fit in savage technologist instead of bloodrager is interesting. That cleric archetype for a familiar was one I was less familiar with. That would be a net +1 to AC while raging, it's worth considering.


tea of transference can transfer ki to smite for 40gp.


Now, I'm curious since I haven't done this yet. Any good magic items or traits that help with Acrobatics, Sleight of hand, stealth, or disable device (like being able to handle magical traps)? Like an item that grants a +5 or more to the skill at a reasonable price. I'd go with shadow armor, but I can't have armor to put shadow on.


Daredevil Softpaw Boots are good at low levels. Nice for getting into a flanking position.

Goggles of Minute Seeing/ Trapspringer's Gloves/ Vest of Escape

False bottomed scabbard/ pathfinder pouch/ Silent Blade Vest/ Quickfingers Gloves

Slayer's Robe (expensive but covers several things you want)

Traits

Expert Smuggler (SoH)
Smuggler (SoH) - faction may be retired
adopted - Collector (DD)
Open Palm of Irori (Acr)
Thrill-Seeker (Acr)
Unorthodox Strategy (Acr)


Quote:
I'd go with shadow armor, but I can't have armor to put shadow on.

Can't you just enchant a normal set of clothing as armor? Getting shadow, while still being able to use monk features.


citricking wrote:
Quote:
I'd go with shadow armor, but I can't have armor to put shadow on.
Can't you just enchant a normal set of clothing as armor? Getting shadow, while still being able to use monk features.

nope you can't.


The only feats you really need to do range are quick draw and Rapid Shot. But to each his own.

So another thing that I had been pondering about in the past would be to focus more on sneak attacks.

To do so you could go 2 levels of Gendarme First mother's Fang Cav. It nets you Power Attack and 2 EWP at level 1 and Cmbat Expertise gang up and a vigilante social talent at level 2. That's a whoopin dip.

You can get up to 3d6 of SA with 1 level of snakebite striker and Accomplished Sneak attacker by level 5.


With a little bit of retraining the first mother's fang could also pick up Pack Flanking.

Then you'd have to pick up a small sized familiar (or get the Augmented Familiar Feat) with the valet Archetype and you'd be perma flanking. Under these circumstances Outflank is also an extremely good feat.

Would take a few hoops to jump through but you'd really significantly up your damage potential with reliable Sneak Attack.

Liberty's Edge

Arshea is great for matching the character style. Here's why it's awesome:

Obedience
Achieve sexual release by yourself or with one or more partners. Praise the most beautiful aspects of yourself and any partners aloud, and offer a prayer to Arshea while still naked. Gain a +4 sacred bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks when interacting with an intelligent creature who could be sexually attracted to you.
Boons - Celestial Obedience

PFS Legal Mystery Cultist
Source Chronicle of the Righteous pg. 7
1: Arshea's Charmer (Sp) disguise self 3/day, mirror image 2/day, or charm monster 1/day
2: Flawless Form (Su) Gain an armor bonus equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum +1) whenever you wear revealing clothing and no armor.
3: Liberation (Sp) You can cast freedom once per day.

Mystery cultist also get +4 sacred bonus to charisma? Isn't this character all charisma? And not wearing heavy armor?

Plus the domain powers! Even for level 1, liberation for example..

also items: you want boots / cloak of elven kind.

Think of being in character man! Isn't sacred attendant way more fitting for Arshea than Torag??

You've got another problem: archetypes for unchained monk aren't allowed in PFS, so you couldn't be a scaledfist and an unchained monk.


In PFS play basicaly end once you hit lv12 meaning you only play as lv11. Since mystery cultist requires 7 ranks the soonest you can take it is lv8 which means you can play through 4 levels of the class.

the obedience is +4 to CHA skills, which isn't a bad deal in PFS since everything is potentially attracted right? So that is pretty nice.

Glorious Aura (Su): 1 round per mystery cultist level

This is a standard action to use and lasts a VERY short time with no way to get more rounds. Getting a +2 to AC as a standard for maybe all of 1 fight a day doesn't seem very impressive.

You don't get Arshea's second boon till lv6 of mystery cultist, so since that's higher than the 4 I could have I miss out on the CHA to armor ability and the liberation ability. Which just leaves the SLA coming in at lv10, which I'm not excited about those very much, the best for my guy would be disguise self, which is also a pretty cheap magic item.

Liberation would give 1 round of freedom of movement, not bad, but you also don't get to choose when it triggers.

So it seems like Arshea is trading torag's trait for her feat and a better thematic fit. Not a bad deal to consider, but nothing else about it seems worthwhile. If I was about to reach and play as lv13 getting CHA for Armor would be super great for this guy, but that's just not in the scope for PFS.

Archetypes pre-Unchained aren't allowed on unchained, if you look at the scaled fist it has rules to apply it to both normal and unchained, and it's legal for both in PFS. There are a good handful of new archetypes that work for both in PFS.

Liberty's Edge

You can and do keep playing after 12, through the retirement adventures.
I can tell you that.
Thanks for the update on scaled fist, didn't know that.
It's a standard action high DC frighten:
Glorious Aura (Su)

Starting at 2nd level, a mystery cultist can shroud herself in a glorious aura for 1 round per mystery cultist level. These rounds need not be consecutive.

Her features radiate with divine beauty, but the force of her presence can be frightening to others. The mystery cultist gains a +4 sacred bonus to her Charisma score and radiates a 10-foot aura of terrible awe. Creatures within the aura must succeed at a Will save (DC 10 + the mystery cultist’s class level + the mystery cultist’s Charisma modifier) or become frightened for 1d4 rounds. Regardless of whether the save is successful, a creature cannot be affected by a mystery cultist’s glorious aura more than once in 24 hours.

Think of it like a spell like you can use twice per day when in a bind - DC 12+cha (only two less than a max level spell, except you just boosted your charisma so it's full DC at 8 and after even higher) that frightens, then for anyone who makes the save you get the buffs.

Or could advance your cleric spellcasting if you wanted.

Note that with this build, it adds to:
saves
AC once or twice or 3 time or 4 (oracle to trade cha for dex, paladin deflection, monk untyped, at highest level as armor too)
spell DCs
attack rolls
you can even get cha to initiative with a level 1 feat...

I'm not saying it's the basis of the build, I'm just saying it'd be super cool.

And wait, none of your levels scale your familiar, so you never get shield other!
If you want that, you need to take like eldritch heritage (arcane).

I think uncanny dodge might be overrated. I would just go:
Scaled Fist Unchained Monk
Ninja
Ninja
paladin
paladin
Scaled Fist Unchained Monk
Sacred attendant Cleric worshiping Arshea
mystery cultist+(though never taking mystery cultist is ok, I still think the deific obedience to Arshea is easily worth a feat, better RP, etc.)

Now you get that extra attack right at first level, the 3 attacks at level 3, etc.

You don't *need* the protector familiar anyway - not with a great ac, great saves, and a bunch of abilities.

Also other domain: Freedom, not level dependent in any way, helps your team.

Uncanny dodge so rarely comes up. Put full ranks in perception and you're fine. *Especially* in PFS.

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