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How powerful can Leshy Warden's be?


Advice


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm a big fan of Leshy (they're cute) but until Bestiary 6 they were sadly limited by the Wildshape modifications however now I think they might be something formidable.

Their familiar gets a scaling bonus to Str and Dex, which to my mind might make them appealing Maulers.

This has always been the case however now their early access to plant shape I has become a valuable asset, due to the Green men.

Ravingdork supplied this useful little breakdown of what Green Men bring to the table.

Ravingdork wrote:


PLANT SHAPE I


  • speed 40 ft.
  • +2 size bonus to your Strength, a +2 enhancement bonus to your Constitution, and a +2 natural armor bonus
  • 2 slams (1d8) and 6 vines (2d6); vines are primary attacks that have 30 foot reach, grab, and constrict
  • darkvision 60 ft. and low-light vision

PLANT SHAPE II


  • resist electricity 20

PLANT SHAPE III


  • DR 15/epic and slashing
  • regeneration 5 (deific or mythic)

Green men are a race of incredibly powerful nature guardians and thus are a valid polymorph shape.

Now the fact they get 6 primary attacks with a 30ft reach is probably enough to give druids turning into pouncing big cats a run for their money, after all one does not have to worry about all the awkward little impediments to getting a charge off. (not to mention you can talk and have hands so I don't think need natural spell)

There is something I think might be more exciting about this however, 6 grab attacks with constrict, and a reasonably capable mauler. To me that sounds like a grappling death trap? They are never going to have the highest CMB but they get 6 tries from level 6, thats a lot of chances to role high. In That regard its similar to Arcane casters using toppling magic missile.

There is the obvious downside of you only being able to grab medium or smaller creatures, meaning against Large and Larger your grappling trick is out, but even then you still have 6 primary reach weapons and full casting to help you combat big enemies.

So yeah I was just wondering if this is a new trick that druids can pull because it seems reasonably scary to me might be worth mentioning in the same breath as Goliath Druids, Pouncing Druids and that weird Vital Strike Ooze druid.
With that I'm wondering if you people who know how to make grappling builds work would like to take a look at this and see if you can in fact make it scary?

Also the benefits of Plant Shape III at level 10 are kinda of insane.


I'm not certain they get the 6 vine attacks. They are primary natural attacks, but because they're granted by the Vines (Ex) ability I don't think you get them with plant shape.

Kind of like how you only get the spikes of a Manticore (which are natural attacks) because "spikes" is in the list of abilities granted by beast shape.


Pretty sure you do.

Quote:
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.

As per the Polymorph subschool of magic.

EDIT: Also turning into a Quickwood for its root attacks (60ft reach) have been a thing since bestiary II, so I imagine it works.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Glad it doesn't work in PFS at least.


I'm just wondering how strong people think this could be, like does it make Leshy Warden an actual powerful archetype or at least is there something to be done with this gift the druids have been given xD

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I am a big fan of the Sargassum Fiend at level 8, large size 2 big slams plus great grapple. Can grab a Helm of the Mammoth Lords to put on after shaping to give yourself a third attack


Even if grab won't work against big enemies, you can always do an ordinary grapple. Some possible feats to get would be
1: IUS
3: Improved Grapple
5: Kraken Style
7: Claw Wrench
9: Greater Grapple
11: Body Shield

Though mythic sounds like the sort of creature that'd get banned in a lot of games.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Sargassum Fiends can grapple Huge creatures, Grapple works for those pesky Gargantuans


What's claw wrench do? I can't find it online.

Kraken style does look like it would help make this kind of grappler in particular pretty nasty.


Claw Wrench has two uses. The lesser is to free an ally from a grapple. The more important is the ability to ready an action which can negate a bite attack, start a grapple, and prevent the grappled creature using its bite as long as it's grappled.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
citricking wrote:

I'm not certain they get the 6 vine attacks. They are primary natural attacks, but because they're granted by the Vines (Ex) ability I don't think you get them with plant shape.

Kind of like how you only get the spikes of a Manticore (which are natural attacks) because "spikes" is in the list of abilities granted by beast shape.

I didn't catch that while going over the statblock. That might well pose a problem. Maybe.

I'm thinking that blurb exists only to serve as clarifying text (since no one would know how a "vines" natural attack would operate otherwise), rather than granting any new abilities, and can probably be ignored for the purposes of polymorph effects. Maybe.

I know with certain other forms, such as eye ray natural attacks that have a (Su) entry, or a manticore's ranged spikes, I'd say "heck no." It's probably safe to say I'm on the fence about this one.

Paizo Employee Designer

citricking wrote:

I'm not certain they get the 6 vine attacks. They are primary natural attacks, but because they're granted by the Vines (Ex) ability I don't think you get them with plant shape.

Kind of like how you only get the spikes of a Manticore (which are natural attacks) because "spikes" is in the list of abilities granted by beast shape.

That's an interesting point; I know that when a monster has a non-standard natural attack, we wind up including those abilities to explain important info about it like whether it's bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing, so if it indeed works this way, it would mean you essentially never get those unusual natural attacks. Very interesting.

On the other hand, each Green Man is a demigod, and even originally had reminder text in it that as a demigod, each one counts as a specific creature and it's not a valid form for polymorph (perhaps removed because other demigods don't have it and it might have confused / made it look like the others could be a polymorph target? Don't know).

Certainly either way, it's not a great idea as a GM to throw solidly-built characters transforming into a green man with plant shape I as an opposition to any but the most top-tier optimized of PCs or you're going to have a TPK on your hands (and vice versa for a player trying it with a PC).


Mark Seifter wrote:
citricking wrote:

I'm not certain they get the 6 vine attacks. They are primary natural attacks, but because they're granted by the Vines (Ex) ability I don't think you get them with plant shape.

Kind of like how you only get the spikes of a Manticore (which are natural attacks) because "spikes" is in the list of abilities granted by beast shape.

That's an interesting point; I know that when a monster has a non-standard natural attack, we wind up including those abilities to explain important info about it like whether it's bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing, so if it indeed works this way, it would mean you essentially never get those unusual natural attacks. Very interesting.

But the loss of natural attacks wasn't an intended consequence of the explanatory text, I take it?

Paizo Employee Designer

Mark Seifter Super Fan wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
citricking wrote:

I'm not certain they get the 6 vine attacks. They are primary natural attacks, but because they're granted by the Vines (Ex) ability I don't think you get them with plant shape.

Kind of like how you only get the spikes of a Manticore (which are natural attacks) because "spikes" is in the list of abilities granted by beast shape.

That's an interesting point; I know that when a monster has a non-standard natural attack, we wind up including those abilities to explain important info about it like whether it's bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing, so if it indeed works this way, it would mean you essentially never get those unusual natural attacks. Very interesting.
But the loss of natural attacks wasn't an intended consequence of the explanatory text, I take it?

I can't speak to the original precedent, since I wasn't around when spikes was included on the polymorph list of abilities in the CRB and the original monsters received those abilities, so it could have been intended. I just know that in monsters I write (like the green man), I make sure to include those abilities so you don't have to wonder about the damage type (then again, if we're focusing on my intent here, in this particular case it would be not to wild shape into it entirely). However, those abilities sometimes also explain other features that are non-standard, and that's the more interesting case: what if a creature had an ability that not only explained the damage type but also added weird extras to the attack. Like:

"Jellybeans (Ex): Jellybean giants attack with the two jellybeans at the ends of their arms. These are primary natural attacks that deal bludgeoning damage. A jellybean giant's jellybean attack has a critical threat range of 15-20/x3 and engulfs creatures of size Medium or smaller inside the jellybean on a critical hit. The jellybean giant can eat the jellybeans to grant a wish to any creature, but then it permanently loses the jellybean, and even regenerate can't regrow it."

In a homegame, I might consider allowing the two basic jellybean attacks with form of the giant but not that weird extra stuff.


So...probably best to keep any GM rulings to a case by case basis then?

Paizo Employee Designer

That's what I'd do, but admittedly, that's my preferred home group answer for a lot of broad categories: work with the group to decide which way to rule case by case rather than go for a one size fits all ruling. Of course, that can be troublesome for PFS but especially for home groups with different levels of experience, different strong opinions about which way to rule, or no opinion of how to rule and feeling lost without assistance to decide.

Again, citricking brings up a fascinating point that I hadn't really considered up til now vis-a-vis the spikes precedent. Well spotted citricking!


Welp that's a bummer

I hear the communal wails of the Leshy warden as plant form regains is sad sad former glory. Thank god for Mi-go


Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

Welp that's a bummer

I hear the communal wails of the Leshy warden as plant form regains is sad sad former glory. Thank god for Mi-go

If you're not in PFS, trying begging and groveling to your GM until they invent a few useful valid plant creatures for you to be.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What's so great about the Mi-Go?

low-light vision, 4 weak attacks and some halfway decent resistances and DR? Barely worth casting the spell if you ask me.

EDIT: Missed the fly speed. That helps a bit.


Leshy warden don't have to cast the spell they just get wildshape but plant form only.

You'd be surprised how few decent plants there actually are to turn into, 40ft fly speed is impressive for a plant. A lot can barely move at all.
Honestly 4 primary attacks is about as good as medium ones get as well.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Again, citricking brings up a fascinating point that I hadn't really considered up til now vis-a-vis the spikes precedent.

Turns out I misread the manticore's statblock, spikes aren't explicitly said to be a natural attack and are ranged, so I'm not sure this reasoning applies.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
citricking wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Again, citricking brings up a fascinating point that I hadn't really considered up til now vis-a-vis the spikes precedent.
Turns out I misread the manticore's statblock, spikes aren't explicitly said to be a natural attack and are ranged, so I'm not sure this reasoning applies.

They're in the monster statblock's attack line, and clearly aren't manufactured weapons. Isn't that pretty much all that's required to be considered a natural attack?


Mark Seifter wrote:
On the other hand, each Green Man is a demigod, and even originally had reminder text in it that as a demigod, each one counts as a specific creature and it's not a valid form for polymorph (perhaps removed because other demigods don't have it and it might have confused / made it look like the others could be a polymorph target? Don't know).

Wait, I'm confused. Can you or can you not polymorph into a Bestiary listed demigod? If not, what rule stops you?

Mark Seifter wrote:
each one counts as a specific creature

I'm sorry, isn't that true for every single member of every single species? Every single human being is an individual, by this logic, you can't polymorph into a human, either.

I always took the "polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals" solely as a 'you can't polymorph into the king'. Especially since that sentence is followed by "Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature’s type.", which is all we're trying to accomplish.

Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
You'd be surprised how few decent plants there actually are to turn into

That's not plant exclusive. Monstrous humanoids only got good forms with Bestiary 6, too (Deathsnatcher and, if allowed, Great Old One Yig).

Undead Anatomy II+ lists Pounce as a valid ability, yet almost eight years later, there is still not a single (non-templated) undead with pounce. (Seriously, WTF Paizo?)

I guess that's the side effect of having ever Bestiary filled to the brim with Outsiders. I only have the Bestiaries up to B4 in my spreadsheet, but I doubt B5 and B6 change that plant is the second least used creature type.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Um sorry about the Mi-go but you don't get the fly speed. None of the Plant Shape spells include gaining any movement mode so you don't get them with the spell line. I think this was a failure to future proof the spells in the Core Rulebook.

In home game I would definitely let it work, following the guidelines for the Beast Shape line.


Taenia wrote:

Um sorry about the Mi-go but you don't get the fly speed. None of the Plant Shape spells include gaining any movement mode so you don't get them with the spell line. I think this was a failure to future proof the spells in the Core Rulebook.

In home game I would definitely let it work, following the guidelines for the Beast Shape line.

Plant shape don't have to specify that you gain the movement mode sicne the more general rules of polymorph state that you do no matter which polymorph spell you use ;)

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Loengrin wrote:
Taenia wrote:

Um sorry about the Mi-go but you don't get the fly speed. None of the Plant Shape spells include gaining any movement mode so you don't get them with the spell line. I think this was a failure to future proof the spells in the Core Rulebook.

In home game I would definitely let it work, following the guidelines for the Beast Shape line.

Plant shape don't have to specify that you gain the movement mode sicne the more general rules of polymorph state that you do no matter which polymorph spell you use ;)

How do you read that? The transmutation(polymorph) rules only call out base speed, leaving it to individual spells to grant other movement speeds.


KingOfAnything wrote:
Loengrin wrote:
Taenia wrote:

Um sorry about the Mi-go but you don't get the fly speed. None of the Plant Shape spells include gaining any movement mode so you don't get them with the spell line. I think this was a failure to future proof the spells in the Core Rulebook.

In home game I would definitely let it work, following the guidelines for the Beast Shape line.

Plant shape don't have to specify that you gain the movement mode sicne the more general rules of polymorph state that you do no matter which polymorph spell you use ;)

How do you read that? The transmutation(polymorph) rules only call out base speed, leaving it to individual spells to grant other movement speeds.

Sorry, my bad, in reading the stat block I haven't seen the 30ft speed before the fly speed, so yes you only got the 30ft speed, not the fly speed... :/

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Derklord wrote:
Wait, I'm confused. Can you or can you not polymorph into a Bestiary listed demigod? If not, what rule stops you?.

Can not

Polymorph school prohibits taking the form of specific individuals.


James Risner wrote:
Derklord wrote:
Wait, I'm confused. Can you or can you not polymorph into a Bestiary listed demigod? If not, what rule stops you?.

Can not

Polymorph school prohibits taking the form of specific individuals.

Did you literally ignore the entire rest of my post?

I am not trying to turn into a specific individual!

The polymorph rules say "your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature’s type", so per that rule, I should end up as a generic member of the respective demigod's creature type.


There are no spells for turning into a demigod or even a type of demigod.

Also, your post does read like you wanted to turn into a specific individual. The only Demigods in Bestiaries are specific individuals. Because of that there are no 'demigod types' you can turn into. They aren't a species.


Azten wrote:
There are no spells for turning into a demigod or even a type of demigod.

I'm not trying to turn into an actual demigod. I don't want to impersonate the demigod. I don't want the exact stripe pattern on the scales, nor do I want the crescent moon on the forehead. I just want to be a generic 14 feet tall snake guy. Also, Great Old Ones aren't actual demigods: "Great Old Ones can be thought of as akin to demigods" Bestiary 4, pg. 135.

Azten wrote:
Also, your post does read like you wanted to turn into a specific individual.

Huh? Where?

Azten wrote:
They aren't a species.

No creature is "a species", but every (living) creature is a member of one. Yig is a living creature, how can a living creature not be a member of any species? And I don't see a template or something that say's it's not a regular member.

The Green Man in B6 is definitely one of many (the entire description is written in plural), apparently an average member (since it's neutral and there seem to be good and evil ones).

Yig is at least listed under an individual name, the Green Man definitely is not. Although even names are blurry - in Greek mythology, Pegasus is an individual creature. In Pathfinder, it's a regular creature. How do we know Yig isn't actually the name of it's species?

Seriously guys, check the polymorph rules again. The "specific individual" sentence does not appear on it's own, it's in a paragraph together with the "generic member of that creature’s type" sentence (and the 'no template' sentence).

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Derklord wrote:
per that rule, I should end up as a generic member of the respective demigod's creature type.

No what that rule means, as your use is to turn into a specific individual. Something you can't do in Polymorph.


Who ressed this thread >.>

Also since when did this turn into a thread about turning into yig the ever polarising?

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