Chromantic Durgon <3 |
I feel like if the Tetori is able to
A) Know where the wizard is
B) Get close to it without it knowing
The wizard has failed.
Although some clever applications of Contingency could still save them.
Basically its a case of the Tetori getting to the Wizard an arrogant evoker, probably, a forewarned diviner, probably not.
Chromantic Durgon <3 |
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I feel like emergency force sphere is kinda OP against a Tetori.
Contingency just pick your preferred flavor.
Also you can't sneak up on someone with foresight. I didn't even think of extended echolocation but it would actually be trivially easy to have that active all day everyday. Obviously sleep in your own Demi Plane.
Also I kinda have a problem with wizard vs threads by virtue of the fact that I don't consider killing a clone and being killed a day later a victory.
I mean how does a monk (or anyone that isn't a 9th caster) deal with the fact their is a clone body of a wizard - somewhere in the world, waiting to be inhabited. Followed by the wizard casting Discern Location (Not blocked by the circlet) and finding and killing the Tetori? And really even an arrogant Evoker should have clones.
EDIT: honestly these sorts of threads are far too nebulous
in what situation does the 18th level monk find the wizard? is he in his tower? if not where is he and why? presumably he has security wherever he is. its actually trivial for a Wizard to make himself unreachable to a Tetori.
vs threads man. I do so hate them xD
Decimus Drake |
With divination wizards it's less about the spells and more about the Forewarned school power. I once played a level 8 diviner with an initiative of 18, for the duration of the campaign he went second once (and that was against a minor deity). Furthermore a diviner cannot be surprised so stealth is a bit less effective then it might otherwise be.
Imbicatus |
Except at high levels the diviner goes first, always acts in the surprise round, and if they invest in it, may be immune to being flat-footed. First action is going to be to cast time stop and give themselves time to prepare something nasty.
Tetoris are great at locking down wizards, but a diviner who is prepared is going to win.
Atalius |
I feel like emergency force sphere is kinda OP against a Tetori.
Contingency just pick your preferred flavor.
Also you can't sneak up on someone with foresight. I didn't even think of extended echolocation but it would actually be trivially easy to have that active all day everyday. Obviously sleep in your own Demi Plane.
Also I kinda have a problem with wizard vs threads by virtue of the fact that I don't consider killing a clone and being killed a day later a victory.
I mean how does a monk (or anyone that isn't a 9th caster) deal with the fact their is a clone body of a wizard - somewhere in the world, waiting to be inhabited. Followed by the wizard casting Discern Location (Not blocked by the circlet) and finding and killing the Tetori? And really even an arrogant Evoker should have clones.
EDIT: honestly these sorts of threads are far too nebulous
in what situation does the 18th level monk find the wizard? is he in his tower? if not where is he and why? presumably he has security wherever he is. its actually trivial for a Wizard to make himself unreachable to a Tetori.
vs threads man. I do so hate them xD
In a gladiator areana 100ft away from each other
Bruno Breakbone |
Curious question, When optimized to kill each other at level 18 vs 18 who wins this battle?
Bruno, a handsome and beautiful Tetori, knows that a high level Diviner Wizard optimized to kill Bruno in an arena fight will kill Bruno in an arena fight.
This more a reflection of quadratic casters/linear martials and also, in this case, a Tier 1 class vs Tier 4 class.
MichaelCullen |
I fail to see how the tetori would even kill the wizard to begin with. By 18th level why would a wizard even be in their own body? They are almost certainly possessing some other creature's body. Why use your own when you can instead use a solar's. Or heck make a simulacrum of Cthulhu and possess that.
Good luck monk. I see your good grappling and raise a (half) Demigod.
And if you happen to kill the possessed creature, you have still done no harm to the wizard.
Paradozen |
How many restrictions do you think need to be placed on the wizard to give the tetori a decent chance?
Obvious ones include actually being there (No Possessing, Astral Projecting, etc) or having backup selves (No Clone, Akashic Form scrolls, Word of Recall, Contingencies that warp you to a safe zone, etc) thus making the target actually the target. Next, probably should assume wizard and tetori are on the same plane, wizard doesn't have any bound servants, constructs, undead, or other minions to protect him/her, and isn't in a personal fortress or other personally safeguarded terrain.
Or maybe we should look into the steps the wizard would need to outgrapple the tetori. You know, to make it more interesting.
CWheezy |
How many restrictions do you think need to be placed on the wizard to give the tetori a decent chance?
Obvious ones include actually being there (No Possessing, Astral Projecting, etc) or having backup selves (No Clone, Akashic Form scrolls, Word of Recall, Contingencies that warp you to a safe zone, etc) thus making the target actually the target. Next, probably should assume wizard and tetori are on the same plane, wizard doesn't have any bound servants, constructs, undead, or other minions to protect him/her, and isn't in a personal fortress or other personally safeguarded terrain.
Or maybe we should look into the steps the wizard would need to outgrapple the tetori. You know, to make it more interesting.
Probably have to ban wish, simulacrum, and limited wish. I like tetori starts beside sleeping wizard, and the wizard has no items.
TBH the wizard could lose that fight, not because tetoris are great, but magic items are pretty good and the tetori could have a bunch of cool scrolls or something
Chromantic Durgon <3 |
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If built to win that fight then the wizard will have somewhere in the region of +35 to initiative, cast prismatic sphere ... I'm pretty sure they've won at that point.
EDIT: if they have 6 levels of barb then their grapple doesn't do dimensional anchor at which point it's a wash.
To be clear I don't particularly like or want wizards to win but this feels like a case of a really really good swimmer trying to dive better than a fish.
MichaelCullen |
If built to win that fight then the wizard will have somewhere in the region of +35 to initiative, cast prismatic sphere ... I'm pretty sure they've won at that point.
EDIT: if they have 6 levels of barb then their grapple doesn't do dimensional anchor at which point it's a wash.
To be clear I don't particularly like or want wizards to win but this feels like a case of a really really good swimmer trying to dive better than a fish.
If the wizard wants there is little reason to have his initiative below +60. 35 is chump change. If he really wants it should be around 100.
Claxon |
Diviners are easy to deal with. Get an Iron Circlet of Guarded Souls and you are immune to all nondetection effects.
Get high Stealth, which is countered by nothing, and sneak on the wiz.
The problem is divination wizards always get to go in the surprise round and get to add their class level to their initiative rolls.
Even if you don't know whats happening, you have a sort of spidey sense that tells you something is wrong. If the tetori doesn't win initiative, the wizard teleports away.
Basically, the tetori only wins if he can win initiative no matter the circumstances.
MichaelCullen |
With foresight the wizard will ever be surprised or flatfooted. With some choice spells he will ensure he goes first (he will proabably double the tetori's initiative).
The he can cast a heightened acid spash to get rid of any spell turning.
Then a quickened limited wish (geas) for a no save auto win.
He can throw in some dweomer's essence to worry a lot less about SR.
MichaelCullen |
Secret Wizard wrote:Diviners are easy to deal with. Get an Iron Circlet of Guarded Souls and you are immune to all nondetection effects.
Get high Stealth, which is countered by nothing, and sneak on the wiz.
The problem is divination wizards always get to go in the surprise round and get to add their class level to their initiative rolls.
Even if you don't know whats happening, you have a sort of spidey sense that tells you something is wrong. If the tetori doesn't win initiative, the wizard teleports away.
Basically, the tetori only wins if he can win initiative no matter the circumstances.
Between Moment of Prescience and a scroll of glimpse of the Akashic, there is +34 right there. Add heightened awarenes for another +4. A +1 dueling training (improved init) cestus adds 8 more. The diviner adds half his level so +9. Add a compsognatus familiar and reactionary and we are at +61 without really trying to hard. (Or even adding dex).
It's doubtful that the tetori will get anywhere near that.
Trinam |
Yes, because every 18th level wizard has burned nearly a third of their wbl on a greater quickened metamagic rod. Nevermind that, per our good friend the SRD, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins. (Citation here)
Not to mention then you run into the single most problematic thing on earth wrt your geas 'autowin.'
You have to word it, and hope the opponent doesn't outlawyer you.
It's a good plan, but no plan survives contact with the enemy.
MichaelCullen |
A quickening diamond is only 8,000. Add in the 1,500 for the material component for limited wish and the 500 for dweomer's essence rounds you out at 10k.
Provided the wizard get the terori's gear he stands to make quite a profit.
If a level 18 wizard lacks the intelligence to come up with a fool proof geas, the he aught to turn in his wizard card.
Hogeyhead |
Yes, because every 18th level wizard has burned nearly a third of their wbl on a greater quickened metamagic rod. Nevermind that, per our good friend the SRD, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins. (Citation here)
Not to mention then you run into the single most problematic thing on earth wrt your geas 'autowin.'
You have to word it, and hope the opponent doesn't outlawyer you.
It's a good plan, but no plan survives contact with the enemy.
...Do you reasonably expect a wizard to spend 25% of his wealth on weapons, and another 25% on armor? Be reasonable. Those are recommended percentages and only make sense for traditional martials. Hell Your tetori won't be built that way either.
I mean did you read the whole paragraph it specifically calls out full arcane casters as an exception.
Trinam |
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wait wait wait I can do better.
No plan is foolproof to a sufficiently talented Fool, so before some Magician or Priestess trying to be Empress or Emperor or Heirophant or whatever position comes along in a campaign structure that's at the top, they should consult with their Lovers to make sure their Chariot is intact and has the Strength it'll need to deal with the Hermit.
Yes, that Hermit, the monk, who has been watching Wheel of Fortune for decades so that he can properly define the ABCs of Justice. If you mess with him, you're going to wind up Hanged, Man. We're talking pure Death, without the Temperance of mercy. You'll see the Devil by the time he's done dropkicking you off the top of his Tower so hard you'll see Stars for the next millenia. The Tetori could grapple a Moon and drop it onto your face so hard you'll go through the planet and land in the Sun.
So use your best Judgment: do you really want to bet the World that you'll win initiative?
Trinam |
...Do you reasonably expect a wizard to spend 25% of his wealth on weapons, and another 25% on armor? Be reasonable. Those are recommended percentages and only make sense for traditional martials. Hell Your tetori won't be built that way either.
Clearly someone isn't familiar with the cost of an amulet of mighty fists. :D :D :D
Hogeyhead |
wait wait wait I can do better.
No plan is foolproof to a sufficiently talented Fool, so before some Magician or Priestess trying to be Empress or Emperor or Heirophant or whatever position comes along in a campaign structure that's at the top, they should consult with their Lovers to make sure their Chariot is intact and has the Strength it'll need to deal with the Hermit.
Yes, that Hermit, the monk, who has been watching Wheel of Fortune for decades so that he can properly define the ABCs of Justice. If you mess with him, you're going to wind up Hanged, Man. We're talking pure Death, without the Temperance of mercy. You'll see the Devil by the time he's done dropkicking you off the top of his Tower so hard you'll see Stars for the next millenia. The Tetori could grapple a Moon and drop it onto your face so hard you'll go through the planet and land in the Sun.
So use your best Judgment: do you really want to bet the World that you'll win initiative?
I'm assuming this is an attempt at humor yes? An honest question I can't tell
Hogeyhead |
Hogeyhead wrote:Clearly someone isn't familiar with the cost of an amulet of mighty fists. :D :D :D...Do you reasonably expect a wizard to spend 25% of his wealth on weapons, and another 25% on armor? Be reasonable. Those are recommended percentages and only make sense for traditional martials. Hell Your tetori won't be built that way either.
Not a weapon...
Hubaris |
Trinam wrote:I'm assuming this is an attempt at humor yes? An honest question I can't tellwait wait wait I can do better.
No plan is foolproof to a sufficiently talented Fool, so before some Magician or Priestess trying to be Empress or Emperor or Heirophant or whatever position comes along in a campaign structure that's at the top, they should consult with their Lovers to make sure their Chariot is intact and has the Strength it'll need to deal with the Hermit.
Yes, that Hermit, the monk, who has been watching Wheel of Fortune for decades so that he can properly define the ABCs of Justice. If you mess with him, you're going to wind up Hanged, Man. We're talking pure Death, without the Temperance of mercy. You'll see the Devil by the time he's done dropkicking you off the top of his Tower so hard you'll see Stars for the next millenia. The Tetori could grapple a Moon and drop it onto your face so hard you'll go through the planet and land in the Sun.
So use your best Judgment: do you really want to bet the World that you'll win initiative?
Its Trinam telling a rough equivocation of the Fool's Story in the Major Arcana of Tarot; mainly just using the names and the order they appear in.