Enworld Exclusive - Planet Castrovel preview!


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CKent83 wrote:

As far as elves being "snooty" and "xenophobic" goes, that's probably an attempt to keep them as familiar to traditional elves as possible, which is probably because this setting is going to have lots of races to play as. Keeping "vanilla" fantasy races as close to their default settings as possible is a way to give new players something familiar to grab onto.

Besides, who cares about elves with their, "I'm so much better than you," attitudes? Pffft!!!

;)

It's not an attitude if we are better than you.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Fardragon wrote:
Elves where already portrayed as xenophobic and isolationist in The Hobbit (1937). I'm not sure where the idea that this is a new thing has come from.

I don't think I have read anyone in this thread making that statement. Those who are critical of the elves in the article are saying that they don't like the xenophobic elves because it is a doubling down on the traditional stereotype instead of taking the opportunity to do cool 'Space Elvez'.


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Another thing to remember is that all the nonhuman core pathfinder races are most likely going to have reasons why they are less common. Makes me wonder what their explanation for halflings is going to be.


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Amberlark wrote:
Another thing to remember is that all the nonhuman core pathfinder races are most likely going to have reasons why they are less common. Makes me wonder what their explanation for halflings is going to be.

The halflings are there, it's just that no one's noticed them yet. Sneaky little halflings.


Yeah, I think making Elves more xenophobic, and probably put dwarves underground on a planet somewhere... I'd suspect the intent is to hide most of the old races to make way for the new ones, but still give people who want to play those races that option.

What I think a lot of people forget too is that most of the main races were probably still on Golarion when it disappeared. I highly doubt the planet disappeared with everyone else getting relocated. No, I'd guess that most of those people are still on the planet-the only ones we get in the setting were already in space doing space things. So the progressive Golarion elves probably were on the planet when it disappeared, leaving us with a few stragglers and the Castrovel Elves, who don't know anything of Golarion really, would turn xenophobic.

As for the Lashunta, I find the change to be both positive and disappointing. On one hand, it was a strong hook, something that got your attention and made the race stick out. Having it be enviormental/a choice is interesting as well, and it definitely opens up more options for character types. Male Lashunta Mystic is something I have a lot of interest in for a character. But by having it be a choice, the race becomes better, but blends in with others a bit more, having lost what made it specifically different.

Ultimately, I end up kind of being neutral on the change, but I think it's better off as a whole. Now to figure out my mystic... :D


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Ashanderai wrote:
Fardragon wrote:
Elves where already portrayed as xenophobic and isolationist in The Hobbit (1937). I'm not sure where the idea that this is a new thing has come from.
I don't think I have read anyone in this thread making that statement. Those who are critical of the elves in the article are saying that they don't like the xenophobic elves because it is a doubling down on the traditional stereotype instead of taking the opportunity to do cool 'Space Elvez'.

Dialling it up to 11 has always been a key component of space opera.

And what's the alternative? A race of jolly toymakers who live on an ice planet and work for a demiurge? A race of friendly but shy folk who love food, beer, and tobacco? A race that has purged all emotion and lives by a code of logic? People who live in trees, are permanantly high on drugs, and talk constantly about peace and love (until being exterminated by the first non-peace-and-love race they encounter)?

I'll take my elves arrogant and xenophobic, thanks.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber
TheGoofyGE3K wrote:
, and probably put dwarves underground on a planet somewhere...

If I recall correctly, dwarves are using skycitadel-like spacestations/spaceships to mine the asteroidbelt, not somewhere underground :)

As for the article, I love the character art, especially the elf.
Now that's a space age armor I'd love to see more of.
Also the way her eyes match the glowy bits of both her gun and armor, nice touch.


Damanta wrote:
TheGoofyGE3K wrote:
, and probably put dwarves underground on a planet somewhere...

If I recall correctly, dwarves are using skycitadel-like spacestations/spaceships to mine the asteroidbelt, not somewhere underground :)

As for the article, I love the character art, especially the elf.
Now that's a space age armor I'd love to see more of.
Also the way her eyes match the glowy bits of both her gun and armor, nice touch.

That's actually pretty cool, curious to see if that holds up in Starfinder

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Ooooh, I only just noticed the holy symbol of Iomedea on the Lashunta male.

I do find it interesting that a lot of the characters we see seem to be carrying grenades, looks like bat/rat/spider swarms are a lot less dangerous at low levels now :)

Though the one thing that keeps annoying me in all the art is the lack of trigger discipline. I'm sure it's a bit late for all the art that's already finished, but please ask the artists to pay a bit attention to that with future commissions? Pretty please? With a cherry on top?


TheGoofyGE3K wrote:
Damanta wrote:
TheGoofyGE3K wrote:
, and probably put dwarves underground on a planet somewhere...

If I recall correctly, dwarves are using skycitadel-like spacestations/spaceships to mine the asteroidbelt, not somewhere underground :)

As for the article, I love the character art, especially the elf.
Now that's a space age armor I'd love to see more of.
Also the way her eyes match the glowy bits of both her gun and armor, nice touch.

That's actually pretty cool, curious to see if that holds up in Starfinder

Dwarves live in "Star Citadels" mining asteroids. Dwarves. They really like mining things. (This comment wasn't sarcastic for the most part. they really do live in "Star Citadels") Dwarves can never seem to get the whole naming thing right. It's not a sky citadel if it's on the ground! It's just misleading! I don't even think these things are actually built on top of stars!


A friend of mine says that kobolds are also mining asteroids. More or less, they are taking resources from these asteroids like they did from the Golarion garden world.

Of course Abadar Corp is still in control of the Solar System's stock market. (got to have a stock market in this game, you know?) And they probably regulate the commodity market as well. The point is, it's going to be a wonderful game. Even with kobolds and Abadar run stock markets.


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One thing to keep in mind is that the Starfinder setting doesn’t need to be an utopian dream of perfect social harmony. Just because it’s a futuristic setting, it doesn’t need to represent the resolution of all of our own gender issues. On the contrary – I’d much prefer a setting where problems linger, and we can explore them through story if we choose (or ignore them in favor of, you know, space adventurez).

I think the important value which the developers have nailed is representation. Instead of having to fill a gender role, lashunta players are free to choose, and are explicitly shown that this is welcome in the game setting. Crystal Frasier’s added description of the change provides a nicely logical context, which elevates the Pathfinder iteration as well. The lashunta realized they needed progress, and are working through it. The binary gender/caste assignment still exists in some cities. It’s not a clean break, and it wouldn’t be. It makes the game more thematically rich than if the lashunta had suddenly solved all gender issues.

Similarly, with the elves criticism, I get that folks are tired of the xenophobia trope, but it says in the text that many reject this attitude (the forlorn), so it’s not an all-or-nothing deal. I’m sure elves exist in many other places besides Castrovel, and their culture(s) will be more diverse than just those in the ancestral homeworld. So I think it may be premature to say that all elves in the setting are expected or perceived to be aloof and snooty.

One last thing I want to commend the developers on. I’m getting a strong Star Trek vibe from the progressive ideas we’ve seen thus far. All of you familiar with Star Trek know that the series has always tried to champion tolerance and acceptance (Kirk and Uhura’s kiss, for one example). Starfinder is showing a deliberate effort to pick up that legacy, and I think it’s fantastic. They didn’t have to include it in their game (it is just a game, after all), but the fact that they did is both brave and It makes me want to support the game and company that much more.


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
JakBlitz wrote:
But it clearly states that they are a Matriarchal Society. Which means it's still "Problematic" and "Sexist".
When the majority of historic societies and governments are patriarchal, having one or two matriarchal ones does not make the matriarchal ones "problematic" or "sexist".

A colony of insects is usually Matriarchal because it always has a Queen and never a King, and it is sexist, because males are reduced to the role of carriers of genetic information from one female (its mother) to the next (its mate) and with some species it sometimes ends up as food for its mate. Is that sexually dimorphic enough for you? I believe the creature from the Alien Movies is based on that of insects, there is a new movie out called [u]Alien Covenant[/u] which is the latest in the Alien series. Do you want any of those in your Starfinder series? I think the alien from the movie Alien is problematic for a lot of people, most would not want those on their starship!


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

As far as the xenophobic elves go, just remember that younger elves - quite likely to be the ones referred to as the forlorn by the more numerous, xenophobic elves - will most likely have no experience of their own dealing with missing memories of the Gap, even though they will likely have relatives who do. It would be most likely that the older elves are the ones with that kind of experience and are the most deeply affected. It might be a case of the younger elves and/or orphaned elves seen as "rebelling" against the older, xenophobic establishment by becoming "forlorn". In fact, just because they are called forlorn by the majority of the elves doesn't mean they necessarily chose that for themselves; perhaps they were exiled for voicing dissenting thoughts. At least, that is what I believe would make for a decent background to support young, more tolerant elf PCs.

Contributor

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Piggybacking on orphicblue a bit:
I recall previous PaizoCon panels and the like discussing portrayals of social conflicts in Pathfinder. My general takeaway is that many players have to deal with oppressive systems in real life; Paizo ain't gonna bring those to the forefront in their games. For most folks it's more enjoyable and less personally painful to defeat ancient evils than it is to wrestle with prejudice in your leisure time fantasy setting. (or scifantasy, in this case) You can dive into those darker themes, the option's there if it's right for your group, but it's not the standard.

And that fits with orphicblue's Star Trek vibe assessment. Starfinder's leading with interesting, inclusive social norms. That's a breath of fresh air, and gives players tons of freedom. Both in the characters they can play, and because of the basic inclusive outlook the players'll hopefully bring to the table. It's not just "this is pretend, do what you want," but explicitly canonizing diverse (and present day real world marginalized) identities. I'm probably sounding like a broken record on my Starfinder posts, but the "you're welcome here!" spirit is awesome.

I was thinking about this last night after reading the Castrovel preview. Maybe it's just 'cause I'm getting in on the ground floor of Starfinder vs stumbling into Pathfinder later in its development, but Starfinder really seems to lead with self-determination as a value. Shirren value individualism and choice, the Vesk preview highlighted ways that they can break with their more rigid warrior tradition, the Lashunta have a personal say in their development, Navasi had a dynamic path of personal growth. It's a good theme to have!


Or maybe its the other way around. Young people learn what they are taught, they don't have much experiences compared to the older generation, and older elf might know better through his many contacts with other species. Young ones can be propagandized, through there education, into hating people!


If the problem is that there has been a change to elves being more isolationist, I would argue that this is not the case. The elves in Pathfinder have largely been described as traditionally adopting an "isolationist" policy. However, in Pathfinder this policy is described as having had negitive impacts on the Elven communities, leading some Elven enclaves to break from their long held isolationist traditions. This reasoning helped to establish reasoning for elves existing as a prominent and core race, while retaining the flavor of elves as holding slight biases and high opinions of Elven tradition and superiority. The only break from this was the forlorn. The forlorn allowed Elven players to break from the Elven archetype of the haughty and naive mage/archer trope to that of a more solem and worldly adventurer. One who understands death and the consequences of time as they apply to the shorter lived races. Forlorn have known true loss. They have formed attachments as most elves would loathe to do, and they have payed the price for their experiences. In this way, Pathfinder was able to both maintain the trope, while allowing for a diverse range of character options. The elves of Starfinder need reason to no longer apply as such a core race to the Starfinder setting, but need to have been made so in such a way that a player can still feel that an elf in the wider setting of Starfinder can feel attached to the setting. I believe the forlorn of Starfinder fill that niche perfectly. They give the opportunity to represent a facet of Elven role play that plays off of their own personal perceptions of the wider universe, as well as the perceptions that their own race holds for them. How does a native Castrovelian elf see a forlorn adventurer. If such an adventurer can beat the solem knowledge that they will inevitably see their party die, would that be a success, or a willful acceptance ones of fate? I think Starfinder forlorn especially seem to be a brilliant race to role play off of.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
orphicblue wrote:

One thing to keep in mind is that the Starfinder setting doesn’t need to be an utopian dream of perfect social harmony. Just because it’s a futuristic setting, it doesn’t need to represent the resolution of all of our own gender issues. On the contrary – I’d much prefer a setting where problems linger, and we can explore them through story if we choose (or ignore them in favor of, you know, space adventurez).

I think the important value which the developers have nailed is representation. Instead of having to fill a gender role, lashunta players are free to choose, and are explicitly shown that this is welcome in the game setting. Crystal Frasier’s added description of the change provides a nicely logical context, which elevates the Pathfinder iteration as well. The lashunta realized they needed progress, and are working through it. The binary gender/caste assignment still exists in some cities. It’s not a clean break, and it wouldn’t be. It makes the game more thematically rich than if the lashunta had suddenly solved all gender issues.

Similarly, with the elves criticism, I get that folks are tired of the xenophobia trope, but it says in the text that many reject this attitude (the forlorn), so it’s not an all-or-nothing deal. I’m sure elves exist in many other places besides Castrovel, and their culture(s) will be more diverse than just those in the ancestral homeworld. So I think it may be premature to say that all elves in the setting are expected or perceived to be aloof and snooty.

One last thing I want to commend the developers on. I’m getting a strong Star Trek vibe from the progressive ideas we’ve seen thus far. All of you familiar with Star Trek know that the series has always tried to champion tolerance and acceptance (Kirk and Uhura’s kiss, for one example). Starfinder is showing a deliberate effort to pick up that legacy, and I think it’s fantastic. They didn’t have to include it in their game (it is just a game, after all), but the fact that they did is both brave and It makes me want...

Andrew Mullen wrote:

Piggybacking on orphicblue a bit:

I recall previous PaizoCon panels and the like discussing portrayals of social conflicts in Pathfinder. My general takeaway is that many players have to deal with oppressive systems in real life; Paizo ain't gonna bring those to the forefront in their games. For most folks it's more enjoyable and less personally painful to defeat ancient evils than it is to wrestle with prejudice in your leisure time fantasy setting. (or scifantasy, in this case) You can dive into those darker themes, the option's there if it's right for your group, but it's not the standard.

And that fits with orphicblue's Star Trek vibe assessment. Starfinder's leading with interesting, inclusive social norms. That's a breath of fresh air, and gives players tons of freedom. Both in the characters they can play, and because of the basic inclusive outlook the players'll hopefully bring to the table. It's not just "this is pretend, do what you want," but explicitly canonizing diverse (and present day real world marginalized) identities. I'm probably sounding like a broken record on my Starfinder posts, but the "you're welcome here!" spirit is awesome.

I was thinking about this last night after reading the Castrovel preview. Maybe it's just 'cause I'm getting in on the ground floor of Starfinder vs stumbling into Pathfinder later in its development, but Starfinder really seems to lead with self-determination as a value. Shirren value individualism and choice, the Vesk preview highlighted ways that they can break with their more rigid warrior tradition, the Lashunta have a personal say in their development, Navasi had a dynamic path of personal growth. It's a good theme to have!

Where were you guys in the Navasi thread debacle?! Awesome.

Archmage Variel wrote:
If the problem is that there has been a change to elves being more isolationist, I would argue that this is not the case. The elves in Pathfinder have largely been described as traditionally adopting an "isolationist" policy. However, in Pathfinder this policy is described as having had negitive impacts on the Elven communities, leading some Elven enclaves to break from their long held isolationist traditions. This reasoning helped to establish reasoning for elves existing as a prominent and core race, while retaining the flavor of elves as holding slight biases and high opinions of Elven tradition and superiority. The only break from this was the forlorn. The forlorn allowed Elven players to break from the Elven archetype of the haughty and naive mage/archer trope to that of a more solem and worldly adventurer. One who understands death and the consequences of time as they apply to the shorter lived races. Forlorn have known true loss. They have formed attachments as most elves would loathe to do, and they have payed the price for their experiences. In this way, Pathfinder was able to both maintain the trope, while allowing for a diverse range of character options. The elves of Starfinder need reason to no longer apply as such a core race to the Starfinder setting, but need to have been made so in such a way that a player can still feel that an elf in the wider setting of Starfinder can feel attached to the setting. I believe the forlorn of Starfinder fill that niche perfectly. They give the opportunity to represent a facet of Elven role play that plays off of their own personal perceptions of the wider universe, as well as the perceptions that their own race holds for them. How does a native Castrovelian elf see a forlorn adventurer. If such an adventurer can beat the solem knowledge that they will inevitably see their party die, would that be a success, or a willful acceptance ones of fate? I think Starfinder forlorn especially seem to be a brilliant race to role play off of.

Think of the implications of the Forlorn on what will eventually become Elven culture. It seems likely that if they are the rebellious youth of the native, enclaved, xenophobic Castrovelian Elves then they may eventually outnumber those predecessors. What's more, they will likely become the SF universes representation of the Elves. They will not be xenophobic or isolationist, or likely even so superior, given how much they will have needed to depend on all the other, more numerous races that have comprised the crews they've worked with. They'd be the Chewbacca's of the SF universe. The isolated Elves on Castrovel will become their backwards, antediluvian ancestors.

Contributor

I gave my two tenths of a cent in there, there were just other folks doing a much better job of it!


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

And I forgot to mention how much I can't wait to play Raia Danviri! OMG Cyberpunk BA!


Fardragon wrote:
Ashanderai wrote:
Fardragon wrote:
Elves where already portrayed as xenophobic and isolationist in The Hobbit (1937). I'm not sure where the idea that this is a new thing has come from.
I don't think I have read anyone in this thread making that statement. Those who are critical of the elves in the article are saying that they don't like the xenophobic elves because it is a doubling down on the traditional stereotype instead of taking the opportunity to do cool 'Space Elvez'.

Dialling it up to 11 has always been a key component of space opera.

And what's the alternative? A race of jolly toymakers who live on an ice planet and work for a demiurge? A race of friendly but shy folk who love food, beer, and tobacco? A race that has purged all emotion and lives by a code of logic? People who live in trees, are permanantly high on drugs, and talk constantly about peace and love (until being exterminated by the first non-peace-and-love race they encounter)?

I'll take my elves arrogant and xenophobic, thanks.

Alternatively, they could be a race not defined by an oversimplified monoculture and instead could have complexity and depth beyond "we hate everyone."

Anything would be better than taking the most disliked traits of elves and making it worse. I'll pass.


Odraude wrote:
Fardragon wrote:
Ashanderai wrote:
Fardragon wrote:
Elves where already portrayed as xenophobic and isolationist in The Hobbit (1937). I'm not sure where the idea that this is a new thing has come from.
I don't think I have read anyone in this thread making that statement. Those who are critical of the elves in the article are saying that they don't like the xenophobic elves because it is a doubling down on the traditional stereotype instead of taking the opportunity to do cool 'Space Elvez'.

Dialling it up to 11 has always been a key component of space opera.

And what's the alternative? A race of jolly toymakers who live on an ice planet and work for a demiurge? A race of friendly but shy folk who love food, beer, and tobacco? A race that has purged all emotion and lives by a code of logic? People who live in trees, are permanantly high on drugs, and talk constantly about peace and love (until being exterminated by the first non-peace-and-love race they encounter)?

I'll take my elves arrogant and xenophobic, thanks.

Alternatively, they could be a race not defined by an oversimplified monoculture and instead could have complexity and depth beyond "we hate everyone."

Anything would be better than taking the most disliked traits of elves and making it worse. I'll pass.

You mean "they could be humans with pointy ears".


Fardragon wrote:
Odraude wrote:
Fardragon wrote:
Ashanderai wrote:
Fardragon wrote:
Elves where already portrayed as xenophobic and isolationist in The Hobbit (1937). I'm not sure where the idea that this is a new thing has come from.
I don't think I have read anyone in this thread making that statement. Those who are critical of the elves in the article are saying that they don't like the xenophobic elves because it is a doubling down on the traditional stereotype instead of taking the opportunity to do cool 'Space Elvez'.

Dialling it up to 11 has always been a key component of space opera.

And what's the alternative? A race of jolly toymakers who live on an ice planet and work for a demiurge? A race of friendly but shy folk who love food, beer, and tobacco? A race that has purged all emotion and lives by a code of logic? People who live in trees, are permanantly high on drugs, and talk constantly about peace and love (until being exterminated by the first non-peace-and-love race they encounter)?

I'll take my elves arrogant and xenophobic, thanks.

Alternatively, they could be a race not defined by an oversimplified monoculture and instead could have complexity and depth beyond "we hate everyone."

Anything would be better than taking the most disliked traits of elves and making it worse. I'll pass.

You mean "they could be humans with pointy ears".

Not necessarily. It's definitely possible to keep to their own flavor while not making them oversimplified and stereotypical. Complexity and depth in a culture doesn't somehow equal bland. That's the issue I'm having is that the other aliens in Starfinder are fairly interesting and cool, with great ideas that are twists on standard space opera tropes. While the elves are just xenophobic isolationists, just like they've always been since Tolkien's time. Only turned up. It feels like a missed opportunity to do something unique and fun with the elves, and instead makes them even more unlikable and a caricature of elves. It's like no one learned from their mistakes with Second Darkness.

Besides, let's not forget that humans can be xenophobic and aloof isolationists. Arguably better at it than fake elves.


Just a thought that occurred to me after reading some news this morning... have the elves become a Hermit Nation? i understand they are not a core race anymore and there should be an explanation for that in the setting but the implications of turning inward to such an extent that leaving their nation gets you permanently branded with something as negative as, "The Forlorn" makes me wonder how far behind the rest of the system the elves will be. The art we've seen looks like a comparable suit of power armor with a real fancy magical energy weapon, if that is elven aesthetic than i would actually want elven gear for my characters but if they arent a full up trading and participating polity than they are likely to get left behind the power curve fairly quickly. There is a reason that sanctions are seen as such a drastic tool and even self imposed they will still be harsh. To say nothing of cultural, educational and otherwise free exchanges of ideas. So how soon until the Lashunta set aside Elven Reservations to let them continue their isolationist ways while the rest of the system moves on towards inter-planetary unity and technological post mortality?


I didn't have a problem with the Lashunta and I don't have a problem with the change.

I suppose it's a loss of some uniqueness for more player character options.

I think I have the lowest blood pressure on this thread. ;)

Elves...*shrug*

Great art though for the whole preview. Cool landscapes and cool looking ladies.


Odraude wrote:
Fardragon wrote:
Odraude wrote:
Fardragon wrote:
Ashanderai wrote:
Fardragon wrote:
Elves where already portrayed as xenophobic and isolationist in The Hobbit (1937). I'm not sure where the idea that this is a new thing has come from.
I don't think I have read anyone in this thread making that statement. Those who are critical of the elves in the article are saying that they don't like the xenophobic elves because it is a doubling down on the traditional stereotype instead of taking the opportunity to do cool 'Space Elvez'.

Dialling it up to 11 has always been a key component of space opera.

And what's the alternative? A race of jolly toymakers who live on an ice planet and work for a demiurge? A race of friendly but shy folk who love food, beer, and tobacco? A race that has purged all emotion and lives by a code of logic? People who live in trees, are permanantly high on drugs, and talk constantly about peace and love (until being exterminated by the first non-peace-and-love race they encounter)?

I'll take my elves arrogant and xenophobic, thanks.

Alternatively, they could be a race not defined by an oversimplified monoculture and instead could have complexity and depth beyond "we hate everyone."

Anything would be better than taking the most disliked traits of elves and making it worse. I'll pass.

You mean "they could be humans with pointy ears".
Not necessarily. It's definitely possible to keep to their own flavor while not making them oversimplified and stereotypical. Complexity and depth in a culture doesn't somehow equal bland. That's the issue I'm having is that the other aliens in Starfinder are fairly interesting and cool, with great ideas that are twists on standard space opera tropes. While the elves are just xenophobic isolationists, just like they've always been since Tolkien's time. Only turned up. It feels like a missed opportunity to do something unique and fun with the elves, and instead makes them even more...

Yes, its not exactly like isolationist Elves are any different from "Isolationist Humans but with pointy ears". I am curious if it is explained any further in the book. Some lost connection to the first world, the death of a major deity, some magical affliction, what drives them to reject the state of their reality and pretend there isnt a vibrant inter-system political scene going on that has real, known, world threatening impact just beyond their nation? What drives some away from this hermitage and why would the only ones who seem interested in interacting with the world be the ones called "forlorn"? It seems to me that the main body of elves who insist on isolation is the faction that should be given the label. But while i am curious about the change, the state of elves as described in the link is really a step back from making elves stand out from every other setting.

I may houserule some stuff for them if the corebook doesnt elaborate a bit more... these would be the elves that choose not to become part of the galactic scene, most elves will actually have left the system in magical garden-ships, looking for a new world to colonize or following rumors of another planet that is some kind of elven paradise... i think there are a lot of ways to explain the fact that there arent many elves running around other than turning back to "git off ma lawn!"

It may also be that the linked article just didnt have the space or time to get very indepth on anything as we've already had a lot more clarifying information dropped about the lashunta so the idea of elves going full Tolkien could just be due to the nature of the interview rather than how they are actually handled in game.


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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I think the Damaya/Korasha thing was a skillful update, as it showed up the previous Lashunta information as incomplete rather than flat out wrong. Adding nuance as a race goes from obscure (Pathfinder) to core (Starfinder) is always a good thing.

Grand Lodge

Crystal Frasier wrote:
Mark Moreland wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:
1) A Lashunta is born male or female and then chooses to become Damaya or Korasha later on. In the distant past, males were expected to become Korasha and females were expected to become Damaya and rarely made the opposite choice, but nowadays all four combinations are relatively common. This option leaves open the possibility of families that are all Damaya or all Korasha.
It's this option, as far as I understand it (as a non-member of the Starfinder team). There would certainly be a lot of pressure in a Damaya family for all the kids to be Damaya, just like a family of doctors might pressure their kids to also be doctors. But ultimately, the kid gets to choose his or her own path when the time comes.

If we're looking at getting into specifics—and I'm happy to having helped rework this aspect of lashunta biology—the lashunta evolved two distinct types of adolescent developments as a response to the severe swings in environmental pressures of their homeworld. Depending on the pressures they faced at puberty, they would either mature as hardy, combative korasha, or they would mature as adaptable, observant damaya. When their culture later developed a tradition of strong gender roles, the kinds of pressures that triggered development as a korasha fell almost entirely on males, while the pressures that trigger damaya development fell almost wholly on women.

As lashunta have move towards leaving their sexism in the past and opening social roles, education, and careers up to everyone regardless of gender, the distribution has become much more even, and many city-states even allow a child to choose how they will develop (by way of meditation and/or medication) rather than just relying on ambient environmental pressures. There are still a few conservative city-states where the gender divide exists and the subspecies are still largely divided by gender, but these are increasingly rare.

This was something I was hoping to read. I like that a historical event pushed them to evolve. I actually think this makes them even more interesting.

I wonder how many of the Lashunta regret their choices, and other questions that could arise from a society like this. I think the stories would be interesting.


Archmage Variel wrote:
CKent83 wrote:

As far as elves being "snooty" and "xenophobic" goes, that's probably an attempt to keep them as familiar to traditional elves as possible, which is probably because this setting is going to have lots of races to play as. Keeping "vanilla" fantasy races as close to their default settings as possible is a way to give new players something familiar to grab onto.

Besides, who cares about elves with their, "I'm so much better than you," attitudes? Pffft!!!

;)

It's not an attitude if we are better than you.

Of course elves are xenophobic. It's much easier to lie to yourself about being superior without having to face reality whenever you look out your window.

I mean look at the starting ages, a human could graduate from wizard school at 17 years old. An elf, however, at the earliest graduates from the same school at 120 years. This is a severe deficit. Heck, a human could master the arcane arts before leaving their twenties, while an elf would still be learning the alphabet!


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CKent83 wrote:
Archmage Variel wrote:
CKent83 wrote:

As far as elves being "snooty" and "xenophobic" goes, that's probably an attempt to keep them as familiar to traditional elves as possible, which is probably because this setting is going to have lots of races to play as. Keeping "vanilla" fantasy races as close to their default settings as possible is a way to give new players something familiar to grab onto.

Besides, who cares about elves with their, "I'm so much better than you," attitudes? Pffft!!!

;)

It's not an attitude if we are better than you.

Of course elves are xenophobic. It's much easier to lie to yourself about being superior without having to face reality whenever you look out your window.

I mean look at the starting ages, a human could graduate from wizard school at 17 years old. An elf, however, at the earliest graduates from the same school at 120 years. This is a severe deficit. Heck, a human could master the arcane arts before leaving their twenties, while an elf would still be learning the alphabet!

Ah, this one again... How long are baby elves in diapers again? :P


Taking a break from the elves, I like the ksarik. I have a soft spot in my heard for tentacled dog creatures so this one is right up my alley. I love it's genetic ability like the Kroot. Definitely something that will be interesting.


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Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
JakBlitz wrote:
But it clearly states that they are a Matriarchal Society. Which means it's still "Problematic" and "Sexist".
When the majority of historic societies and governments are patriarchal, having one or two matriarchal ones does not make the matriarchal ones "problematic" or "sexist".
A colony of insects is usually Matriarchal because it always has a Queen and never a King, and it is sexist, because males are reduced to the role of carriers of genetic information from one female (its mother) to the next (its mate) and with some species it sometimes ends up as food for its mate. Is that sexually dimorphic enough for you? I believe the creature from the Alien Movies is based on that of insects, there is a new movie out called [u]Alien Covenant[/u] which is the latest in the Alien series. Do you want any of those in your Starfinder series? I think the alien from the movie Alien is problematic for a lot of people, most would not want those on their starship!

I would guess for elves the younger generations will be the ones among the forlorn and people leaving their homes. If they are young enough to not be directly impacted by the memory loss of the gap they won't have that much more trauma about it than any other race/society does. It is understandable the ones who lived through it and were directly impacted by the memory loss felt violated and afraid and reacted accordingly.

Paizo Employee Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

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Odraude wrote:
Taking a break from the elves, I like the ksarik. I have a soft spot in my heard for tentacled dog creatures so this one is right up my alley. I love it's genetic ability like the Kroot. Definitely something that will be interesting.

It's a fun critter, though I'd rank its cuddliness on par with the akata (might seem like a good idea but would lead to a very dead character).


Odraude wrote:
Taking a break from the elves, I like the ksarik. I have a soft spot in my heard for tentacled dog creatures so this one is right up my alley. I love it's genetic ability like the Kroot. Definitely something that will be interesting.

Neo-Skags! i shall throws packs upon packs of them at my PCs!

Liberty's Edge

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Amberlark wrote:
Makes me wonder what their explanation for halflings is going to be.

They're tasty.


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Odraude wrote:
Fardragon wrote:
Odraude wrote:
Fardragon wrote:
Ashanderai wrote:
Fardragon wrote:
Elves where already portrayed as xenophobic and isolationist in The Hobbit (1937). I'm not sure where the idea that this is a new thing has come from.
I don't think I have read anyone in this thread making that statement. Those who are critical of the elves in the article are saying that they don't like the xenophobic elves because it is a doubling down on the traditional stereotype instead of taking the opportunity to do cool 'Space Elvez'.

Dialling it up to 11 has always been a key component of space opera.

And what's the alternative? A race of jolly toymakers who live on an ice planet and work for a demiurge? A race of friendly but shy folk who love food, beer, and tobacco? A race that has purged all emotion and lives by a code of logic? People who live in trees, are permanantly high on drugs, and talk constantly about peace and love (until being exterminated by the first non-peace-and-love race they encounter)?

I'll take my elves arrogant and xenophobic, thanks.

Alternatively, they could be a race not defined by an oversimplified monoculture and instead could have complexity and depth beyond "we hate everyone."

Anything would be better than taking the most disliked traits of elves and making it worse. I'll pass.

You mean "they could be humans with pointy ears".
Not necessarily. It's definitely possible to keep to their own flavor while not making them oversimplified and stereotypical. Complexity and depth in a culture doesn't somehow equal bland. That's the issue I'm having is that the other aliens in Starfinder are fairly interesting and cool, with great ideas that are twists on standard space opera tropes. While the elves are just xenophobic isolationists, just like they've always been since Tolkien's time. Only turned up. It feels like a missed opportunity to do something unique and fun with the elves, and instead makes them even more...

But the point is, elves aren't a core race in Starfinder. So, whilst they could have done something interesting and cool with elves, they did interesting and cool things with the core races instead. That's basically what Lashunta are - an interesting and cool version of elves.

Meawhile, for reactionaries who can't abide new stuff, traditional elves are still available, and guess what? They are traditional.

Personally, I don't get your problem with Tolkienesque elves.

Liberty's Edge Developer

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JakBlitz wrote:
But it's still a...

Depends on whether or not you consider modern America a "patriarchy" vs a society with patriarchal values.

In all but the most conservative lashunta nations, there are no longer laws saying men can't hold higher office or be CEOs. But culturally, most of them—men and women—just sort of know that a man is too emotional and hormonal to handle that kind of pressure. Plus men have to take care of the kids, so why give that promotion to a man when you know he's just going to step out of the workforce eventually to be a dad? Ect ect.

Lots of cultural holdovers from very old traditions, but slow growth towards actual equality, rather than just equality on paper.


When you make an entire culture hateful and isolationist with a superiority complex, it's hard to root for them in a story. Especially if you're dealing with elven NPCs or worse, an elven PC.

And the thing is... this isn't new stuff. Nothing was changed, but merely amplified to an almost caricaturish level. The elves of Kyonin are depicted about the same way in Second Darkness, only not as bad. There isn't anything creative or new or interesting about their culture that hasn't been done in other mediums (Eldar for example). And yes while they are not a core race anymore, people are going to want to play elves in Starfinder because it's elves.

It just feels like a poor treatment on a race that had the potential for an interesting and engaging culture in a new setting. Why have a new setting when we'll just have the same old cultures? It is a missed opportunity. I hope that dwarves and half-orcs get something better than this.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I feel like this was overlooked in the Elf conversation...

I wrote:


Archmage Variel wrote:


If the problem is that there has been a change to elves being more isolationist, I would argue that this is not the case. The elves in Pathfinder have largely been described as traditionally adopting an "isolationist" policy. However, in Pathfinder this policy is described as having had negitive impacts on the Elven communities, leading some Elven enclaves to break from their long held isolationist traditions. This reasoning helped to establish reasoning for elves existing as a prominent and core race, while retaining the flavor of elves as holding slight biases and high opinions of Elven tradition and superiority. The only break from this was the forlorn. The forlorn allowed Elven players to break from the Elven archetype of the haughty and naive mage/archer trope to that of a more solem and worldly adventurer. One who understands death and the consequences of time as they apply to the shorter lived races. Forlorn have known true loss. They have formed attachments as most elves would loathe to do, and they have payed the price for their experiences. In this way, Pathfinder was able to both maintain the trope, while allowing for a diverse range of character options. The elves of Starfinder need reason to no longer apply as such a core race to the Starfinder setting, but need to have been made so in such a way that a player can still feel that an elf in the wider setting of Starfinder can feel attached to the setting. I believe the forlorn of Starfinder fill that niche perfectly. They give the opportunity to represent a facet of Elven role play that plays off of their own personal perceptions of the wider universe, as well as the perceptions that their own race holds for them. How does a native Castrovelian elf see a forlorn adventurer. If such an adventurer can beat the solem knowledge that they will inevitably see their party die, would that be a success, or a willful acceptance ones of fate? I think Starfinder forlorn especially seem to be a brilliant race to role play off of.
Think of the implications of the Forlorn on what will eventually become Elven culture. It seems likely that if they are the rebellious youth of the native, enclaved, xenophobic Castrovelian Elves then they may eventually outnumber those predecessors. What's more, they will likely become the SF universes representation of the Elves. They will not be xenophobic or isolationist, or likely even so superior, given how much they will have needed to depend on all the other, more numerous races that have comprised the crews they've worked with. They'd be the Chewbacca's of the SF universe. The isolated Elves on Castrovel will become their backwards, antediluvian ancestors.


Torbyne wrote:
CKent83 wrote:
Archmage Variel wrote:
CKent83 wrote:

As far as elves being "snooty" and "xenophobic" goes, that's probably an attempt to keep them as familiar to traditional elves as possible, which is probably because this setting is going to have lots of races to play as. Keeping "vanilla" fantasy races as close to their default settings as possible is a way to give new players something familiar to grab onto.

Besides, who cares about elves with their, "I'm so much better than you," attitudes? Pffft!!!

;)

It's not an attitude if we are better than you.

Of course elves are xenophobic. It's much easier to lie to yourself about being superior without having to face reality whenever you look out your window.

I mean look at the starting ages, a human could graduate from wizard school at 17 years old. An elf, however, at the earliest graduates from the same school at 120 years. This is a severe deficit. Heck, a human could master the arcane arts before leaving their twenties, while an elf would still be learning the alphabet!

Ah, this one again... How long are baby elves in diapers again? :P

They are not diapers! They're ergonomic waste containment devices! And how long!?! I never take mine off!

All jokes aside. I'd think that the xenophobic sentiments of non-forlorn elves may be an interesting approach to roleplay off of. How does a elf react when he sees an alien for the first time. Elves aren't always the most adept species at diplomacy. What is their response? I like you, you're one of the good kasatha. Not all heroes are nice, and not all adventurers are heroes. Some are just xenophobic. So long as you can play the role without offending the people you're with, it's an interesting perspective. That said, I think the perspective of the forlorn elves is meant to be the more conventional approach to introducing elven characters into a campaign. Xenophobic Castrovelian elves seem like more of a plot device to me than forlorn elves.


Jason Mosher wrote:

I feel like this was overlooked in the Elf conversation...

I wrote:


Archmage Variel wrote:


If the problem is that there has been a change to elves being more isolationist, I would argue that this is not the case. The elves in Pathfinder have largely been described as traditionally adopting an "isolationist" policy. However, in Pathfinder this policy is described as having had negitive impacts on the Elven communities, leading some Elven enclaves to break from their long held isolationist traditions. This reasoning helped to establish reasoning for elves existing as a prominent and core race, while retaining the flavor of elves as holding slight biases and high opinions of Elven tradition and superiority. The only break from this was the forlorn. The forlorn allowed Elven players to break from the Elven archetype of the haughty and naive mage/archer trope to that of a more solem and worldly adventurer. One who understands death and the consequences of time as they apply to the shorter lived races. Forlorn have known true loss. They have formed attachments as most elves would loathe to do, and they have payed the price for their experiences. In this way, Pathfinder was able to both maintain the trope, while allowing for a diverse range of character options. The elves of Starfinder need reason to no longer apply as such a core race to the Starfinder setting, but need to have been made so in such a way that a player can still feel that an elf in the wider setting of Starfinder can feel attached to the setting. I believe the forlorn of Starfinder fill that niche perfectly. They give the opportunity to represent a facet of Elven role play that plays off of their own personal perceptions of the wider universe, as well as the perceptions that their own race holds for them. How does a native Castrovelian elf see a forlorn adventurer. If such an adventurer can beat the solem knowledge that they will inevitably see their party die, would that be a success, or a willful acceptance ones of fate? I
...

That is true. Unfortunately, I still just do not like how the elves have become xenophobic and unilateralist. It's been done before.

Personally I really liked how Dragon Age did elves. I thought it was a more fresh take for them while still keeping them different enough from humans to matter. Same with The Witcher 3. For a long time, I kinda hated elves and preferred half orcs. But it turns out, I just dislike aloof protagonists with a superiority complex :)

But I don't want to take up the entire topic and make it about elves. So far, Castrovel seems to be an interesting planet. I really like the potential dangers there with the wildlife that the players can interact with while planetside. I'm actually running an M-Space campaign where the players are exploring a planet similar, so I can mine some good ideas off of this.


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Archmage Variel wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
CKent83 wrote:
Archmage Variel wrote:
CKent83 wrote:

As far as elves being "snooty" and "xenophobic" goes, that's probably an attempt to keep them as familiar to traditional elves as possible, which is probably because this setting is going to have lots of races to play as. Keeping "vanilla" fantasy races as close to their default settings as possible is a way to give new players something familiar to grab onto.

Besides, who cares about elves with their, "I'm so much better than you," attitudes? Pffft!!!

;)

It's not an attitude if we are better than you.

Of course elves are xenophobic. It's much easier to lie to yourself about being superior without having to face reality whenever you look out your window.

I mean look at the starting ages, a human could graduate from wizard school at 17 years old. An elf, however, at the earliest graduates from the same school at 120 years. This is a severe deficit. Heck, a human could master the arcane arts before leaving their twenties, while an elf would still be learning the alphabet!

Ah, this one again... How long are baby elves in diapers again? :P

They are not diapers! They're ergonomic waste containment devices! And how long!?! I never take mine off!

All jokes aside. I'd think that the xenophobic sentiments of non-forlorn elves may be an interesting approach to roleplay off of. How does a elf react when he sees an alien for the first time. Elves aren't always the most adept species at diplomacy. What is their response? I like you, you're one of the good kasatha. Not all heroes are nice, and not all adventurers are heroes. Some are just xenophobic. So long as you can play the role without offending the people you're with, it's an interesting perspective. That said, I think the perspective of the forlorn elves is meant to be the more conventional approach to introducing elven characters into a campaign. Xenophobic Castrovelian elves seem like more of a plot device to me than...

Unfortunately, in my experience, whenever a player plays a bigoted character, it never really pans out as great as it sounds on paper. When a story is told about a bigoted character as a protagonist, it's usually following the story on how they meet a person of the race they hate and learn from each other, overcoming their bigotry. Remember the Titans is probably a good example of this, as is American History X (although a bit more violent). While most of the players I've played with that do it end up playing their character as more a joke character that makes snide remarks about drow or half orcs, with little character growth. Of course, seeing a PC get worse over the adventure is a type of character growth and is interesting, it also has the capability of rubbing players the wrong way. Especially people that have dealt with bigotry in the real world.

Maybe I've just been unlucky *shrug*


Crystal Frasier wrote:
JakBlitz wrote:
But it's still a...

Depends on whether or not you consider modern America a "patriarchy" vs a society with patriarchal values.

In all but the most conservative lashunta nations, there are no longer laws saying men can't hold higher office or be CEOs. But culturally, most of them—men and women—just sort of know that a man is too emotional and hormonal to handle that kind of pressure. Plus men have to take care of the kids, so why give that promotion to a man when you know he's just going to step out of the workforce eventually to be a dad? Ect ect.

Lots of cultural holdovers from very old traditions, but slow growth towards actual equality, rather than just equality on paper.

Out of curiosity, is the idea of lashunta subspecies tied more closely to the real world idea of gender expression or of gender identity? I'm super interested about how lashunta view this kind of dichotomy and characterize it. It doesn't seem that the difference between Damaya and Korasha pertains in any way (at least directly) to sex or attraction. Or is it something different entirely?

Odraude wrote:
Unfortunately, in my experience, whenever a player plays a bigoted character, it never really pans out as great as it sounds on paper.

It's definitely a concept idea that should only be approached by a select few roleplayers. There are always character races that encourage concepts that have a very narrow and difficult scope. Commonly evil or isolationist races in general make for potentially intriguing yet difficult character concepts.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hmm, overall I like the changes to the lashunta, it still works with past continuity, but offers more options to players while still potentially making gender a significant aspect in the same way as in Pathfinder, while allowing for it to be subverted or otherwise played with as desired...or simply ignored in favor of playing with what you want to.

I think the elf change is fine, myself, it makes a good way to explain why elves have become less relevant in the Pact Worlds while still allowing players who want to be elves to have a good excuse to involve themselves, breaking away from their still-scarred elders who can't bring themselves to interact with the rest of the system.

Of course, I was never fond of Dragon Age's presentation of elves...or much of anything about the setting...so perhaps that should be taken with a grain of salt.

Anyways, always been interested in Castrovel, so will definitely be looking forward to what Starfinder has to show about it...as well as Verces.

Silver Crusade

Crystal Frasier wrote:
JakBlitz wrote:
But it's still a...

Depends on whether or not you consider modern America a "patriarchy" vs a society with patriarchal values.

In all but the most conservative lashunta nations, there are no longer laws saying men can't hold higher office or be CEOs. But culturally, most of them—men and women—just sort of know that a man is too emotional and hormonal to handle that kind of pressure. Plus men have to take care of the kids, so why give that promotion to a man when you know he's just going to step out of the workforce eventually to be a dad? Ect ect.

Lots of cultural holdovers from very old traditions, but slow growth towards actual equality, rather than just equality on paper.

I read this and really can't say anything about other than now feels like this was thought through to push someones agenda. As stated before the Lashunta were already a very interesting race that occupied a unique place in the races of the RPG. I would rather not be fed real world politics in my fantasy role-playing games.

Liberty's Edge Developer

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Archmage Variel wrote:
Out of curiosity, is the idea of lashunta subspecies tied more closely to the real world idea of gender expression or of gender identity? I'm super interested about how lashunta view this kind of dichotomy and characterize it. It doesn't seem that the difference between Damaya and Korasha pertains in any way (at least directly) to sex or attraction. Or is it something different entirely?

The subspecies aren't tied to physical sex at all, biologically. The idea was that long before that settled into city-states and developed a complex culture, lashunta simply had the capacity to either become great hunters/warriors OR great problem-solvers, depending on the challenges the environment presented, and the same change would generally affect all the members of the clan who came of age around that time, regardless of their gender. If the clan was currently dealing with a surge in the predator population, most of the young coming of age would mature as korasha that were more adept at fighting them off. If they instead had to deal with the storms or drought, more of the young would mature as damaya, better suited to rationing their supplies, discovering alternatives, or guiding their people to a safer environment.

Lashunta culture is mixed on how they view the subspecies' gender-appropriateness. Just like there are some people today who hate women with short hair or think it's humiliating for a man to be a stay-at-home dad, there are some lashunta who think the old divisions were the "natural" order, and all this "forced diversity" will destroy society, but most people are pretty neutral to the idea of a male damaya or a female koratha.


JakBlitz wrote:
Crystal Frasier wrote:
JakBlitz wrote:
But it's still a...

Depends on whether or not you consider modern America a "patriarchy" vs a society with patriarchal values.

In all but the most conservative lashunta nations, there are no longer laws saying men can't hold higher office or be CEOs. But culturally, most of them—men and women—just sort of know that a man is too emotional and hormonal to handle that kind of pressure. Plus men have to take care of the kids, so why give that promotion to a man when you know he's just going to step out of the workforce eventually to be a dad? Ect ect.

Lots of cultural holdovers from very old traditions, but slow growth towards actual equality, rather than just equality on paper.

I read this and really can't say anything about other than now feels like this was thought through to push someones agenda. As stated before the Lashunta were already a very interesting race that occupied a unique place in the races of the RPG. I would rather not be fed real world politics in my fantasy role-playing games.

I don't know about anyone pushing an agenda. Science Fiction has always addressed subjects like this or even more drastic ideas. I like it, and even if I don't end up using it in any of my Campaigns it never hurts to have the fluff there for you to use. Real world politics have always fueled fiction, so I can only imagine Paizo intends to keep up with realworld problems.

Liberty's Edge Developer

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And while I'm speaking like the lashunta authority, I want to point out that these updates were very much a group effort, with a lot of brainsotrming between myself, Amanda Hamon-Kuntz, Lissa Guillet, and Adam Daigle. I am not the final word on this.


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Aunders wrote:
JakBlitz wrote:
Crystal Frasier wrote:
JakBlitz wrote:
But it's still a...

Depends on whether or not you consider modern America a "patriarchy" vs a society with patriarchal values.

In all but the most conservative lashunta nations, there are no longer laws saying men can't hold higher office or be CEOs. But culturally, most of them—men and women—just sort of know that a man is too emotional and hormonal to handle that kind of pressure. Plus men have to take care of the kids, so why give that promotion to a man when you know he's just going to step out of the workforce eventually to be a dad? Ect ect.

Lots of cultural holdovers from very old traditions, but slow growth towards actual equality, rather than just equality on paper.

I read this and really can't say anything about other than now feels like this was thought through to push someones agenda. As stated before the Lashunta were already a very interesting race that occupied a unique place in the races of the RPG. I would rather not be fed real world politics in my fantasy role-playing games.
I don't know about anyone pushing an agenda. Science Fiction has always addressed subjects like this or even more drastic ideas. I like it, and even if I don't end up using it in any of my Campaigns it never hurts to have the fluff there for you to use. Real world politics have always fueled fiction, so I can only imagine Paizo intends to keep up with realworld problems.

A good example of this are Heinlein s characters, who he purposefully made minorities as a counter to heroes at the time. That said, rpgs are much more interactive and more done for fun, so not every one wants to deal with social issues at the table. This is especially true if you've dealt with them in real life.

Liberty's Edge Developer

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Literally everything in Pathfinder and Starfinder is influenced by real-world history and/or politics. Heck, the entire of genre of science fiction exists to put society and culture under microscopes.

Why is it only ever a problem when we mention gender or sexuality?

This wasn't even especially deep. "Hey, these people have gendered biases, but they're the opposite of what we struggle with in our real world." Not sure why that's something that's "pushing an agenda."

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