Riding a quadruped eidolon seems like the best bet. Grab lance proficiency and Spirited Charge and you're basically good on damage; bonus, you can negate attacks against your Eidolon with Ride checks which is a neat defensive ability. And pick up Improved Share Spells to efficiently split buffs starting at level 11 (or 10 with retraining).
I've had my summoners ride their eidolons as cavaliers, and I've had them stand back and cast spells, or even work as a support archer.
All seemed to work pretty well, though I could only seem to spec one role for each character.
Melee works, you have light armor and get a shield bonus from your eidolon so you can TH a weapon. Downside is that you then are wanting your spells to buff 2 people instead of just 1 eidolon.
I asked the same thing a few weeks ago. It's been difficult for me to find something I like with the summoner.
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I've had my summoners ride their eidolons as cavaliers, and I've had them stand back and cast spells, or even work as a support archer.
All seemed to work pretty well, though I could only seem to spec one role for each character.
I have a ranged combat Summoner.
I also made a skilldolon w/ a 12 int at 8th level and had the Summoner who actually concentrates on summons, taking the eidolon out of combat once the fighting starts and uses support spells to back them up (the eidolon's his wife and she should not be endangered).
Pick a concept and go with it.
In terms of being effective [some would say power gaming]I am firmly of the opinion that having a summoner go into melee deliberately is a mistake.
Reason? Well I have a level 5 Tengu Ninja that can do 1d3 + 5 damage 3 times per round, each + 3d6 if she can get sneak attack, which she very often can. What damage can a summoner do in combat. 1d10 maybe +1 or +2 at most.
The Ninja has a host of other advantages in combat and the difference will only get greater as the characters levels increase.
You can dedicate some feats to being better in melee. But this will just make you mediocre at best. Those feats can be much better spent making you better at something you can actually get good at.
My suggestion is follow Kerney in getting a decent missile weapon and a decent dex [which will help you in other ways]. When you get enough resources you can replace the missile weapon with a wand. Summoners are half casters with a lot of powerful spells.
You are not going to be super effective with a crossbow or whatever. No matter it is not a summoners strong suit. The best thing is you don't have to go over near the enemy to engage in melee combat.
Two things to be avoided like the plague, melee combat and spending feats to turn yourself into a third rate fighter.
A melee summoner can be looking at lv5 at doing 1d10+12 damage a hit.
AC will be a moderate dex of +2, chainshirt, and eidolon's shield bonus for total non-magic AC of 18. If you invest in mithral kiko that ups to 19, and throw in a trait for breastplate puts you at 20AC. That's pre barkskin which you'll have at lv5 for another +2 AC putting you at 20 normal and possibly 22 AC, upping by 1 for free next level. And that's before magic, so having a +1 or +2 armor puts your ac at 22 normal and 23 for mithral. Meaning your AC is chilling around the same as a fullplate+2 guy.
As the summoner levels he gains heroism for more accuracy and his spells auto-upgrade providing more bonuses for the same slots.
Sure you're no barbarian, but few things are. But your a solid melee presence alone.
But the question I have for Joynt Jezebel is what should the feats be going for? So far all your post said was don't do melee, but not actually sharing what you felt the summoner could be good at that is worth investing feats for.
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TWF summoner with butterfly sting + scythe wielding Eidolon.
It's really good.
I've built a Katana Wielding Fey-Caller (with a Katana wielding Eidolon) for a Non-PFS campaign I'm in. We're Katantastic! I'm planning to make sure to select at least one attack spell at each spell level; starting with Barbed Chains and Infernal Healing at 1st level.
On paper it looks like a decent build... but we shall see.
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I have a few summoners in play, I'll give you the basics.
- 14 Int Human summoner, uses Int and Charisma based skills (Diplomacy via triat) partnered up with a skill focused Eidolon that is alarmingly good at 'rogue' skills hanks to evolutions. Augment Summoning and Superior Summons means the Summon Monster is your go-to combat strat, while the Eidolon works out of combat as a scout. I took Expanded Arcana a bunch, but this is the APG version so the spells are that damn good.
- Mounted Halfling summoner that rides their demon eidolon. I ended up using retrain shenanigans to basically have Power Attack and Furious Focus as their first feats. A dip in Dragoon Fighter shores up lance proficiency and feat taxes, even if it ensures the eidolon itself will never excell at combat.
- Another Human summoner. Like the one above, I got Spell Focus Conjuration and Augment Summons. But this time, I took it to cast Summon Eidolon to hot drop my combat beasty in a good position with a free +4 to Strength and Con. Other feats went into multiple Extra Evolutions because his Unwavering Conduit archetype lowers the evo pool. As a bonus, Augment Summons means that Summon Monster is a pretty solid backup, even if his archetype severely limits its options.
I tend to push for 12 or more Int for skills. I have yet to make a melee Summoner but I'm bouncing some ideas around.
Depending on how your DM adjudicates Benevolent armor the Bodyguard feat can be very strong for a Summoner + Eidolon team. Mounted Combat works well too. On the other hand, just hanging back and buffing can be a pretty good survival tactic while you still get to have fun with the eidolon. For instance, casting Haste is effective but boring for a Wizard or Bard, but with the Summoner you can both cast Haste and take advantage of it right away to make a Hasted full attack with your eidolon.
It probably bears mentioning that using the Summoner for "quick" actions like a buff spell before the eidolon's full attack will suck up less table time than making full attacks with both the eidolon and PC. Depending on your group that could be a significant factor. If you keep it snappy and effective it might help prevent complaints about Summoner being overpowered or hogging the spotlight.
A melee summoner can be looking at lv5 at doing 1d10+12 damage a hit.
But the question I have for Joynt Jezebel is what should the feats be going for? So far all your post said was don't do melee, but not actually sharing what you felt the summoner could be good at that is worth investing feats for.
I have played master summoners, which use every available feat to enhance the summoning SLA. So trying to be good at melee is much worse there.
The good thing about a vanilla summoner is that they don't need to spend feats on any one thing aside from taking extra evolution as often as allowed. At level 5 that would be extra evolution x2 and craft wondrous item or arms and armour. But you can spend the last feat as you want, you don't have anything you need to spend it on. Improving the summoning SLA is one path.
And it is not just the feats. If you want to fight up close you need to have a good or decent str, which you otherwise have little need of.
Having read your post, the melee idea is better than I thought it was. It still isn't the way I would go. But you are making use of sharing buffs with the eidolon, not a bad use of spells anyway, and shield ally.
The summoner in melee idea gets worse as you go up levels though. You fall behind the melee specialists more and the foes get more dangerous.
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Keep in mind that you have to share magic item slots between the Summoner and the Eidolon, so, for example, only one can wear a Cloak of Resistance, or an Amulet of Natural Armor. You also have only one share of cash to work with.
Barkskin covers natural armor for the both if you, reaching its full potential as early as level 12. Mage Armor is plenty enough for the Eidolon, and throwing in Shield almost makes it overkill. Greater Magic Fang covers a natural attacking eidolon. You can each have a Ring of Protection.
The Cloak problem is a legitimate worry, but a Half Orc with the Sacred Tattoo/Fate's Favored combo can have your Summoner covered within the levels of traditional PFS play. Alternatively, if the Eidolon is using a simpler build, it can afford a couple of the feats that improve saves.
Buffing spellcasters can bypass a lot of the Big Six, really.
I usually change the item slot for certain eidolons. There's nothing preventing me from having a cloak of resistance and the eidolon having a "saddle of resistance" in a different slot, for example.
A melee summoner can be looking at lv5 at doing 1d10+12 damage a hit.
But the question I have for Joynt Jezebel is what should the feats be going for? So far all your post said was don't do melee, but not actually sharing what you felt the summoner could be good at that is worth investing feats for.I have played master summoners, which use every available feat to enhance the summoning SLA. So trying to be good at melee is much worse there.
The good thing about a vanilla summoner is that they don't need to spend feats on any one thing aside from taking extra evolution as often as allowed. At level 5 that would be extra evolution x2 and craft wondrous item or arms and armour. But you can spend the last feat as you want, you don't have anything you need to spend it on. Improving the summoning SLA is one path.
And it is not just the feats. If you want to fight up close you need to have a good or decent str, which you otherwise have little need of.
Having read your post, the melee idea is better than I thought it was. It still isn't the way I would go. But you are making use of sharing buffs with the eidolon, not a bad use of spells anyway, and shield ally.
The summoner in melee idea gets worse as you go up levels though. You fall behind the melee specialists more and the foes get more dangerous.
ah I forget about crafting feats since I play mostly PFS.
But it seems your "build" has the summoner just standing around during combat?
Like if you plan on having your eidolon out normally then your SLA isn't an option, and you spells seem thin to cover buffing your eidolon and using them for offense.
IIRC Master Summoners can use their Summoner Monster SLA while maintaining their Eidolon (and they get more uses of it per day too). In exchange their Eidolon is significantly less powerful. They are banned in PFS (probably because they can flood the battlefield and Augmented Summons while maintaining a decent Skill Monkey Eidolon)
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Kali multiweapon eidolon with kukris and scythe summoner works for butterfly sting too.TWF summoner with butterfly sting + scythe wielding Eidolon.
It's really good.
Thankfully Dirty Tactics Toolbox finally made this workable. The Combat Expertise pre-req for Butterfly Sting was almost impossible for an Eidolon to get, as it has a 13 int prereq. Luckily the Dirty Fighting feat bypasses that nonsense.
Thankfully Dirty Tactics Toolbox finally made this workable. The Combat Expertise pre-req for Butterfly Sting was almost impossible for an Eidolon to get, as it has a 13 int prereq. Luckily the Dirty Fighting feat bypasses that nonsense.Kali multiweapon eidolon with kukris and scythe summoner works for butterfly sting too.TWF summoner with butterfly sting + scythe wielding Eidolon.
It's really good.
Dirty Fighting does nothing of the sort.
It only helps by pass it for very specific subset of feats, of which butterfly sting is not one (it is not an improved [combat maneuver] feat, nor does it have one as a prerequisite).
I'd imagine that a lot of useful combos could exist with Paired Opportunists. For example, it could be used with Broken Wing Gambit so that both the eidolon and Summoner get to AoO an enemy who attacks either one. It would be kind of like Come and Get Me, and the +4 to hit from PO is a pretty big bonus. As an added bonus, there's a saddle which grants a mount your teamwork feats.
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I've got a melee Summoner I've worked on for a bit that uses teamwork feats and reach weapons to have them both on the front lines with some pretty good AC and abilities. It uses a Suli and only has a 14 CHA, using spells for buffing only. I should mention this is for PFS, so it doesn't have much of a future past level 12.
I was inspired by the Pazuzu miniature I got from a Lost Cost box awhile back. The plan is to just model all obvious abilities from the mini when it comes to evolution points, and probably use the Agathon or Archon subtypes. Though I might lop the scorpion tail off of the model for the sake of my sanity, properly repping the Eidolon, and matching the Agathton description.
Can't a Druid do this at level one if they are a small race?
If you select a Roc as your companion yes. They even appear to be legal in PFS (although I might be misreading the entry). So any Small Druid or Hunter can be Air-Calvary at 1st level.
Or sacred huntmaster, or winged marauder, or blood rager with a mauler familiar, or ....
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If you select a Roc as your companion yes. They even appear to be legal in PFS (although I might be misreading the entry). So any Small Druid or Hunter can be Air-Calvary at 1st level.
The only problem is carry capacity. Flying companions tend to have middling strength at the start, and a fully kitted out Halfling is still going to put them over capacity. You can jury rig it with (a wand of) Ant Haul, but not everyone wants to be dependent on that.
This is an entirely nit-picky argument that shouldn't fly in any campaign... but the rules for encumbrance never actually say you (as a mount) have to count the weight of your rider or anything they are carrying against your encumbrance.
If you want to determine whether your character's gear is heavy enough to slow him down more than his armor already does, total the weight of all the character's items, including armor, weapons, and gear.
Note the lack of the term "creature" anywhere in the list of things you count towards encumbrance? Yeah... conversational rules crafting at its best right there.
Regardless, the penalties for having an encumbered mount aren't nearly as bad as being encumbered yourself. Most mounts have enough speed to be able to afford to lose some and still be faster than your grounded party-mates. The Armor-Check penalty is probably irrelevant to most of them (I suppose it would affect Fly checks if the GM remembers to require them). Finally, although it might ping your AC by a point or two, if you are Calvary you likely took Mounted Combat, so you'll be replacing their AC with your Ride Check as often as possible. Most enemies will prefer to try to go after the rider rather than the mount because if your goal is to kill the rider, the mount is basically just a giant pool of optional hit-points you can try to hack through if you want to deprive the rider of some fairly minor bonuses.
the rule is that animal companions or creatures from the monstrous mount feat can't fly (as a mount?) with more than a light load.
the rule is that animal companions or creatures from the monstrous mount feat can't fly (as a mount?) with more than a light load.I can't find that rule, but I did find the rule that I posted above.
maybe that was it, I haven't looked into it for a while but I thought it was somewhere.