Do explosive bombs ignore the saving throw for catching fire?

[Krash4031]

Everything else in the rules that says "catch fire" seems to use the rules found on page 444 in the Core Rulebook.

My play group, however, thinks that the Alchemist's explosive bombs do not grant a saving throw, and anything hit directly is just on fire immediately. Which seems RIDICULOUSLY broken.

Is this true?

[Firebug]

PRD - Explosive bomb wrote:

Explosive bomb*: The alchemist's bombs now have a splash radius of 10 feet rather than 5 feet. Creatures that take a direct hit from an explosive bomb catch fire, taking 1d6 points of fire damage each round until the fire is extinguished. Extinguishing the flames is a full-round action that requires a Reflex save. Rolling on the ground provides the target with a +2 to the save. Dousing the target with at least 2 gallons of water automatically extinguishes the flames.

Just above that:

PRD - Discoveries wrote:

... Discoveries that modify bombs that are marked with an asterisk (*) do not stack. Only one such discovery can be applied to an individual bomb. The DC of any saving throw called for by a discovery is equal to 10 + 1/2 the alchemist's level + the alchemist's Intelligence modifier.

No save on direct target, and since no other bomb discoveries (*) can be added to explosive bomb there should only be one of those, not the splash targets. And then the direct target uses the Bomb's DC to extinguish the fire. Frankly it is only 1d6 points of damage each round, is easily overlooked any only useful if they do not have the ability to put themselves out... which may take minutes to actually kill them.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Generally speaking things that require an attack roll do not get a saving throw. Both are simulating chance to avoid the damage so you use one or the other. There are of course exception but those are usually for balance reasons. As Firebut pointed out the damage from an continuing damage from the explosive bomb is not that much.

Also consider the alchemist spent a discover on this. A discovery is the equivalent of a feat. Compare how effective this is to a two handed martial character using power attack and it is way under powered.

[Davor Firetusk]

I wouldn't say way underpowered, it's comparable to bleed damage in some ways (which did manage to kill a character of mine yesterday). At low to mid levels it is entirely possible that the prospect of ongoing damage is enough to motivate a character to burn their turn extinguishing it (keeping in mind they just took a direct bomb hit). Even at somewhat higher levels ongoing damage at least forces a concentration check on a caster to cast a spell, granted they are most certain to make it, but there is a 1 on every die. If that was the only thing the discovery did it would be pretty weak, but the radius increase on the splash is very potent.

[Gallant Armor]

You don't fail concentration checks on a nat 1. Even for a level 1 character they would more than likely make the check and before long it will be an auto succeed.

[ArmchairDM]

Firebug wrote:

PRD - Explosive bomb wrote:

Explosive bomb*: The alchemist's bombs now have a splash radius of 10 feet rather than 5 feet. Creatures that take a direct hit from an explosive bomb catch fire, taking 1d6 points of fire damage each round until the fire is extinguished. Extinguishing the flames is a full-round action that requires a Reflex save. Rolling on the ground provides the target with a +2 to the save. Dousing the target with at least 2 gallons of water automatically extinguishes the flames.

Just a note that it does say CREATURES directly hit automatically catch on fire not objects.

[Garbage-Tier Waifu]

Gallant Armor wrote:

You don't fail concentration checks on a nat 1. Even for a level 1 character they would more than likely make the check and before long it will be an auto succeed.

It is still annoying. And combined with Disruptive from a nearby fighter, and you have a very annoyed spellcaster. Furthermore, it's a full-round action to put out, and isn't necessarily guaranteed, so that definitely can delay a spellcaster's actions if they feel like they can't survive the damage. And if the creature doesn't put the fire out, then that's actually a fairly efficient bomb damage/value wise.

[Ascalaphus]

Krash4031 wrote:

Which seems RIDICULOUSLY broken.

Is this true?

No, it's not broken in practice, it just looks impressive.

At low level 1d6 damage per round may seem a lot, but it doesn't scale up at higher level. Or against enemies with fire resistance (which are quite common).

The discovery is very cool at level 2, but it's less impressive by level 4 and completely useless by level 6. An alchemist is much better off taking for example a discovery to unlock a second damage type that fewer enemies are immune to.

[Davor Firetusk]

How does increasing the splash radius make it not very useful? Type immunity is obviously an issue, but combine that extra range with Splash Weapon Mastery and in most dungeon encounters you can hit at least 2 enemies at a time, and even at high level when you go rapid bombs and drop a guy his friend could easily be splashed down to half HP. I've seen others disregard splash damage before, but playing a High Int Half-orc right now I've got a minimum splash damage of 17 at 11th level. The save DC is 22. There are a lot of things that fail most of those saves.

[Ascalaphus]

Splash damage doesn't go up nearly as fast as main bomb damage. My level 11 alchemist for example does 6d6+11 damage on a direct hit (average: 32), but splash damage is only 17 (DC 21 reflex to halve splash).

Now with Explosive Bombs I could splash more enemies, but I can't combine that with Force Bombs, so it only works against enemies that aren't protected against fire. Also I miss out on knocking the primary target prone, which is important for keeping him at a distance.

Besides, I use Splash Weapon Mastery so I can already splash semi-adjacent enemies, but with Force damage.

If I were to look for an alternative to Force Bombs it would surely be Stink or Tanglefoot bombs - those are much more debilitating. If I can just hamper and slow enemies my melee allies will finish them off easily.