Is a high DPR Crossbowman possible and reliable? I made an 11th level Slayer but is it even worth it?


Advice and Rules Questions


First of all I apologize if I have posted this in the wrong thread. I also want to say that I am unfortunately not familiar with all the rules (since there are so many, especially from different books) so I know that I’ve probably got some (or maybe most) of the rules wrong for this character.
First of all, this character is an 11th level Slayer. I have also chosen Kasatha as the race (one of the only playable races with four arms). I wanted to make this character a ranged character and since I personally like the look and feel of crossbows, I chose crossbows for him to use.
First of all, I wanted to make this character permanently enlarged so his size would be Large (especially since it is relatively cheap, costing only 2500gp). This firstly means he can wield Large weapons since they are appropriate to their size. However, there exists a feat called Lighten weapon ,a combat feat from Kobold Press (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/kobold-press/combat-feats-3r d-party-kobold-press/lighten-weapon-combat/) . This reduces the effort to wield bigger weapons than your size would allow so it would theoretically allow the character to wield Huge size weapons. Since I wanted him to use crossbows, I had an idea of using two Huge light crossbows (one per each set of hands). I am aware that using each light crossbow requires two hands normally but since I wouldn’t be firing it one handed, I wouldn’t incur a -4 penalty on attack rolls.
At 11th level, the character would have 6 feats (from character advancement at levels 1,3,5,7,9,11) as well as the bonus racial feat from Kasatha which is Spinal Sword proficiency , 5 slayer talents and one slayer advanced talent. I have chosen the feats Two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting, deadly aim, lighten weapon (crossbow) and Improved Lighten Weapon (so the -2 penalty for lighten weapon doesn’t occur anymore). The slayer talents I chose were all from Ranger combat style (crossbow mastery, rapid shot, Point Blank shot, Precise shot and rapid reload). The advanced slayer talent I chose was Assassinate. Crossbow mastery is especially useful since I can reload any type of crossbow as a free action.
For the character’s weapons I chose two huge light crossbows to begin with. I would put the impact enchantment on both and Agile enchanment on the offhand one so that I could add half dex to damage (since I'm unaware of another way to do this). This would mean the damage die is increased once again. Lastly, I would purchase a wand of gravity bow to increase the damage dice again. So the damage dice progression would go from 1d8 (medium light crossbow), 1d10 (large light crossbow), 2d6 (huge), 2d8 (Impact) and 3d8(Gravity bow) for each crossbow. The slayer’s base attack bonuses at 11th level are +11/+6/+1 and my character has 22 Dex (I have taken into account the -4 penalty to dex due to my size being Large). Also, with the two weapon fighting feats I have, the character can attack three times with his offhand in a round as well alongside three attacks for main hand. Furthermore, Deadly aim will provide negatives to attack as well since it is similar to power attack but for ranged characters. Also, I think I can use rapid shot in the same round as well as deadly aim but again I receive more penalty. In total then, I believe my character will have four main hand attacks (including the rapid shot) and three offhand attacks.
Here are my calculations for to hit:
Base is +11/+6/+1 . Adding a 6 dex modifier gives +17/12/+7 on main hand. From two weapon fighting feats, he can make three attacks taking the attack bonus from the highest iterative attack bonus (17) (as shown by https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/72414/how-does-two-weapon-fighting- work ) but his second offhand attack is at -5, and his third at -10 as well as having -2 to attack on his main hand attacks from using a light weapon . His attack bonus would then look like +15/+10/+5 from main hand and offhand would be +15 (17-2)/+10 (17-2-5)/+5(17-2-10). Then taking into account rapid shot -2 penalty, BABs would be +13/+8/+3/ 13 (rapid shot being 17-2 from rapid shot and -2 from two weapon fighting penalty) and offhand light crossbow would be +13/+8/+3. On top of this, using Deadly aim with a -5 penalty to all attacks his final BAB would be +8/+3/-2/+8 and offhand being +8+3/-2 and so he has SEVEN attacks a round. I tried to explain this a bit better with a table.
1st MAIN MAIN 2MAIN 3MAIN(RAPID)OFFHAND 1 OFFHAND 2OFFHAND 3
BAB without dex 11 6 1 - - - -
+6 dex mod 17 12 7 - - - -
2weapon minuses 15 10 5 - 15 10 5
Rapid shot 13 8 3 13 13 8 3
Deadly aim +8 +3 -2 +8 8 3 -2

Deadly Aim does indeed seem quite risky here as the attack bonus severely decreases but if all the attacks would hit, then that’s a guaranteed 70 damage (since with a combined BAB of +18, the character qualifies for +10 to each damage per hit but at a -5 to hit to each attack). This may seem like quite a glass canon or very situational character if what I have calculated is true. However, his damage potential could be insane, especially since he was made with the intention of being a sniper hitman sort of character. Also, I believe in a surprise round, he would also add sneak attack damage on each attack’s damage especially if I buy Sniper Goggles which allow sneak attacks at any range. If he can's sneak attack a creature, then he would likely not use Deadly Aim, for better chance of hitting.
I realise him hitting on every attack would be very unlikely either way though. However, I wanted to calculate his damage in case he would attack and hit a creature as a surprise (since he is a hitman that can fire from 120ft away), meaning I would hit for Flat Footed AC.
Damage dice from the attacks would be 7x3d8=21d8 . The dex modifier for the main hand attacks would be 6 so 6x4 = 24 extra damage. Investing in the Agile Enchantment for the offhand crossbow would mean I add half dex on damage rolls so that would be 3x3=9. Deadly aim = (10x7) + Sneak attack (7x3d6=21d6)
So if he got all his attacks to hit in one round and as a sneak attack, he would have to roll 21d8, 21d6 as well as adding 70 for deadly aim, and 33 for dex damage, totalling 21d8,21d6 and 103 extra damage before even CRITTING. Is this BROKEN? Is this too powerful? Have I even calculated everything correctly for this character? Thanks in advance for any feedback. I would appreciate any advice.


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Gutsigrit wrote:
First of all, this character is an 11th level Slayer.

If you want to use a Crossbow effectively, you will need to take 5 levels in the Bolt Ace Gunslinger. Once you have five levels in Bolt Ace you have every class feature that matters and you should multiclass out to something else (Slayer would be a great choice).

So definitely rebuild into a Bolt Ace 5 / Slayer 6 if you can.

Gutsigrit wrote:
First of all, I wanted to make this character permanently enlarged so his size would be Large (especially since it is relatively cheap, costing only 2500gp).

Increasing your size category is very bad for ranged characters, and the small increase in damage is not worth the hefty penalties you take. Melee weapons get the benefit of increased threat range for being large-sized, but ranged weapons get no equivalent bonuses. Given the hefty accuracy penalty you take, it's not worth it.

Gutsigrit wrote:
However, there exists a feat called Lighten weapon ,a combat feat from Kobold Press (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/kobold-press/combat-feats-3r d-party-kobold-press/lighten-weapon-combat/) . This reduces the effort to wield bigger weapons than your size would allow so it would theoretically allow the character to wield Huge size weapons.

Lighten Weapon either causes you to take a -2 penalty to attack, or forces you to pay a second feat to avoid the penalty. Either way, you're getting ripped off. There are some very specialized builds that multiply their damage dice that can utilize feats like these, but you need to start with something like a greatsword to make it workable. I don't see this feat working out for a crossbow build.

Gutsigrit wrote:
I have chosen the feats Two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting, deadly aim, lighten weapon (crossbow) and Improved Lighten Weapon (so the -2 penalty for lighten weapon doesn’t occur anymore). The slayer talents I chose were all from Ranger combat style (crossbow mastery, rapid shot, Point Blank shot, Precise shot and rapid reload). The advanced slayer talent I chose was Assassinate. Crossbow mastery is especially useful since I can reload any type of crossbow as a free action.

You can only take Ranger Combat style talent three times. Crossbow Mastery can be dropped, but you absolutely need the other feats here so you'll need to replace the other feats you've mentioned with them.

Gutsigrit wrote:
For the character’s weapons I chose two huge light crossbows to begin with.

Light Crossbows, contrary to their name, are not light weapons so you take a substantial penalty for two weapon fighting with them. You want to use Hand Crossbows, which have a specific exemption that lets them be treated as light weapons. Sadly, they're exotic weapons so you need to spend a feat on that.

Gutsigrit wrote:
I would put the impact enchantment on both and Agile enchanment on the offhand one so that I could add half dex to damage (since I'm unaware of another way to do this).

Impact and Agile can only be applied to melee weapons. Crossbows are not eligible to receive these enhancements. The only way to get dexterity to damage on Crossbows is by taking five levels of Bolt Ace.

Gutsigrit wrote:
Lastly, I would purchase a wand of gravity bow to increase the damage dice again.

Not worthwhile. Cast from a wand, Gravity Bow only has a 1 minute duration so you have a very short window of time to prebuff if you want the spell to stay in effect for combat, but the process of drawing your wand, using it, then stowing your wand takes at least 2 rounds. Leave buffing to the spellcasters in the party, don't waste your time and effort.

Gutsigrit wrote:
Here are my calculations for to hit:

You are correct that you have +11/+6/+1 base attack. From rapid shot you gain an additional attack at your full BAB, and from two weapon fighting you gain one attack at full and one attack at -5, so that gives you a base of +11/+11/+6/+1 with your main hand, and +11/+6 with your off-hand. For the sake of simplicity I'll presume you're using an identical weapon in both hands so we can just represent this as +11/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1

Now your modifiers. You have +6 from dexterity, -4 due to two-weapon fighting with a non-light weapon, -2 due to rapid shot, -3 due to deadly aim (I don't know where you're getting -5), -1 due to being a large-sized creature. I'm also presuming you should have an enhancement bonus on your weapon, so I'll give you +3 from that. That gives you a total modifier of -1

That gives you +10/+10/+10/+5/+5/+0 to hit. You are carrying way too many accuracy penalties here and will struggle to hit any monster with decent AC.

Gutsigrit wrote:
Deadly Aim does indeed seem quite risky here as the attack bonus severely decreases but if all the attacks would hit, then that’s a guaranteed 70 damage (since with a combined BAB of +18, the character qualifies for +10 to each damage per hit but at a -5 to hit to each attack). This may seem like quite a glass canon or very situational character if what I have calculated is true. However, his damage potential could be insane, especially since he was made with the intention of being a sniper hitman sort of character.

70 damage is actually pretty low. Let me show you a breakdown of a Fighter 6 / Bolt Ace 5 just off the top of my head:

24 dexterity (16 base +2 racial +2 level-up +4 enhancement)
Feats: Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim
Weapon: +4 Light Crossbow
Attack: +18/+18/+13/+8
Damage: 1d8+18

That's 90 damage average if everything hits, and with significantly higher accuracy. It also should be noted that I haven't even spent half my feats or picked up any Advanced Weapon Training options or archetypes for the Fighter. I also only counted the most basic equipment (dexterity-enhancing enhancing belt and a weapon) and haven't considered other helpful items. In other words, this is a skeletal build before optimization and customization.

(Attack breakdown: +4 to hit from weapon enhancement, +7 from dexterity, +1 from weapon training, -2 from rapid shot, and -3 from deadly aim for a total of +7 to hit.

Damage breakdown: +4 to damage from enhancement, +6 from deadly aim, +7 from dexterity, and +1 from weapon training for a total of +18)

Gutsigrit wrote:
Is this BROKEN?

No, dealing 100 damage per round if every attack hits is completely normal at the 11th level. Given your atrocious accuracy, it's actually on the weak side.

Also, don't take this too negatively. Your concept is cool and you've clearly done a lot of book delving to make it happen. However, always be mindful when you're taking double-edged options that have tradeoffs. On their own they aren't bad (Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim are staples for a reason), but if you're making three or four such tradeoffs you're going to fall very far behind someone who just takes the boring but efficient option every time.


Thank you very much Dasrak for your advice and feedback (and corrections!). Once again, apologies for having made it quite difficult to understand how I thought the numbers added up (not to mention I misunderstood so many rules and mechanics). Bolt Ace Gunslinger seems a very viable option for what I initially wanted for this character. I agree that often when trying to make “unique” characters you encounter problems and many drawbacks since the rules have limitations and may not be adaptable to the core concept or idea of a character. I’d like to thank you once again and I wish you have many happy DND sessions ahead!


*Glances in* I'm actually going to disagree with Dasrak on the appropriate level of damage for an 11th-level character.

The main thing to consider is this chart, which calculates the numbers a character will normally want to aim for at any given level. Somewhere between green and blue for damage - without going over blue - is generally appropriate. Note that you will have to take your "to hit" into consideration - naturally, attacks that don't hit as often drag your average down. ("The average including likely misses" is a much better way to calculate your damage than "The average if everything hits", because the former is more reliable.)

At 11th Level, you shouldn't need to do more than 72.5-ish average damage.

+18 to hit is pretty much spot on, though, so you don't need to try and make that any better. (On the chart I linked, Green is basically the ideal)


GM Rednal wrote:

*Glances in* I'm actually going to disagree with Dasrak on the appropriate level of damage for an 11th-level character.

The main thing to consider is this chart, which calculates the numbers a character will normally want to aim for at any given level.

I probably should have linked that chart, because it's a really good resource for getting ballpark numbers (although calculating EDV is a pain without a spreadsheet).

However, I have to wonder why you're disagreeing with me on 100 damage per round. That statement was presuming that everything hit, which is not what EDV is. If your highest iterative is an 18 (green rated) then your iterative attacks will be lower than this, and most of your attacks will miss against the benchmark AC of 25 for a CR 11 opponent. This means the raw 100 damage I was talking about earlier will have an EDV that's below 50. So yes, it's a completely normal amount of damage.


Well, mostly, I was disagreeing with the idea that "if every attack hits" is a measure that should be used. XD EDV is a much more useful number overall - though it is indeed much harder to calculate.


GM Rednal wrote:
Well, mostly, I was disagreeing with the idea that "if every attack hits" is a measure that should be used.

That's the number that Gutsigrit was looking at, and I wanted to be clear that it's not an unusual number for that level range. I agree that damage must always be looked at in the context of the attack values that go along with it. EDV is a very precise measurement for that, whereas measuring the damage if everything hits then eyeballing your overall accuracy is a faster but rougher method.


A player in my emerald spire game had a similar idea. I poineed him towards Bolt ace 5/Alchemist 2-4, picking up the extra atm discovery twice. He uses one hand for a buckler and the other three for hand crossbows (Which Bolt Ace's Crossbow Maven gives you proficiency with).

I don't know his exact DPR, but dexterity mutagen and the bard's inspire courage help him to do a LOT of damage.

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