Player want to create this spell effect.


Homebrew and House Rules

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Sovereign Court

Level 4 spell.

Full Round casting time

2-5 Targets

After casting the spell, the spell energy takes a round to coalesce high in the air, about 200' (this spell can only be used outside).

On the next round the built up energy bolts down and strikes the targets, no save, no attack roll, no spell resistance. Each target takes 20d6 damage, no energy resistance, no DR.

So the spell takes a full round and thus is easier to disrupt, then takes 2 more rounds to fully take effect, and can only be used in the outdoors with no tree cover.

but

does a tonne of damage, has no resistances against it and is autohit with no save.

Critiques?


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For a 4th level spell that too much damage and too many targets


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Nothing practical or particularly diplomatic for that matter. It breaks several 'no spell should do this' guidelines, let alone the 'too powerful for this level' guidelines. The delay does not mitigate that. Not even if it were a full 3 rounds of casting.

Sovereign Court

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

For a 4th level spell that too much damage and too many targets [/QUOTE?]

What would you see as more reasonable?

Would the fact that this is a Mythic game make a difference?

Sovereign Court

dragonhunterq wrote:
Nothing practical or particularly diplomatic for that matter.

Huh?


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What the posters above said. 200' are enough to cast the spell unnoticed, so the delay isn't necessarily a big disadvantage.

And I don't see the reason as the spell is described to nor allow SR, as it targets directly and it's energy damage so that should allow SR.

The damage shouldn't be untyped either, and logic says that, compared to other similar spells it should probably be Reflex half.


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No matter if the game is mythic. The spell isn't.


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As a philosophical issue, if the player stipulates all the parameters of the spell they don't get to set the level, the GM does. If they want to set the level they need to ask "so for this to be 4th level how much damage can it do?"

Other than that, same as everyone else said.


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The only spell I can think of that does a similar amount of damage is disintegrate. That is a 6th level spell, affects a single target, requires an attack roll, allows a save, and is subject to spell resistance.

If you like, start with the spell call lighting and then make a higher level version of it.

Sovereign Court

Kileanna wrote:

What the posters above said. 200' are enough to cast the spell unnoticed, so the delay isn't necessarily a big disadvantage.

And I don't see the reason as the spell is described to nor allow SR, as it targets directly and it's energy damage so that should allow SR.

The damage shouldn't be untyped either, and logic says that, compared to other similar spells it should probably be Reflex half.

Just to be clear, the spell energy gathers 200' up from where the caster is. This is why to needs to be outside, but the caster also needs to be at the battle/point of conflict.

Think of the effect more as a conjuration effect. The energy creates a physical effect that after striking it dissipates into nothingness. Thus no SR. There is no DR because it is basically like a falling object landing on the target, and from my understanding falling damages don't allow DR.

Sovereign Court

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

As a philosophical issue, if the player stipulates all the parameters of the spell they don't get to set the level, the GM does. If they want to set the level they need to ask "so for this to be 4th level how much damage can it do?"

Other than that, same as everyone else said.

We are at teh starting point of discussing the spell. He isn't making demands, he is pointing out where he thinks it should be and I am thinking it all over.

Sovereign Court

Kileanna wrote:
No matter if the game is mythic. The spell isn't.

I only mention it due to power levels being so out of wack in Mythic.

I am fairly relaxed in my DMing, so I like to say yes more than no if my players want to do cool stuff.

I already know this is excessive, so want to see what others may do to balance it out a bit more.

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I shall simply refer you to the Designing Spells chapter of Ultimate Magic.


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Quote:
no save, no attack roll, no spell resistance. Each target takes 20d6 damage, no energy resistance, no DR

So... Magic Missile without that pesky SR, doing 20d6 damage on 2-5 enemies and with the only drawbacks being what you've written? At 4th level?

NOPE.

I LOVE custom spells, but they have to be scaled in level-appropriate-ness. Work with the player and get something more reasonable going...


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OilHorse wrote:
Kileanna wrote:
No matter if the game is mythic. The spell isn't.

I only mention it due to power levels being so out of wack in Mythic.

I am fairly relaxed in my DMing, so I like to say yes more than no if my players want to do cool stuff.

I already know this is excessive, so want to see what others may do to balance it out a bit more.

I also consider myself pretty relaxed and I don't care a lot if my players have kinda powerful characters. But allowing them to take such unbalanced options is detrimental to the game in long terms, so even if you want to allow it my best suggestion is to balance the spell.


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Which aspect(s) of the spell is the player particularly attached to?


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How do you target the targets? 2-5 enemies, is that caster level depended? Because it isn't an area effect, right?

It looks way to power. Waiting a while is not necessarily a substantial drawback.

You might add another drawback, like the spell fails if one intended target stops being valid (by moving away or dying, for example). Or the spell targets random valid targets (such as nearby PCs) if intended targets stop being valid.

Sovereign Court

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Which aspect(s) of the spell is the player particularly attached to?

All of it?

None of it?

There is more to it...it isn't really a spell. It is a series of interactions, that in the end give that same set of mechanics. I made it sound like a spell to see reaction. What they want is excessive, but I am pretty sure the interaction of what they are trying to do is fairly sound mechanically.

Spellcaster has a Thrush familiar. Said familiar can speak with animals.

Spellcaster will have the Thrush fly in the air about 200'.

Using a Reach metamagic feat the Spellcaster will Summon 1d4+1 eagles with Summon Monster 3. Said Eagles will appear next to the Thrush.

The next round the Thrush will communicate to the Eagles to "divebomb"/"control fall" onto enemies on the ground.

3rd round the Eagles do as such and if I understand it right the impact of a falling object from that height will cause 20d6 damage to both target and falling object.


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And why do the Eagles get to hit their targets without an attack roll?


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Also, they can't appear up there, even if they can fly.

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

As I understand it the main point of that is to prevent exactly such shenanigans.


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If I pulled this trick at a table as a GM all my players would walk calling me a d!*k GM, complain here about me pulling such a douche move and I'd bet no one would disagree with them.

If you pulled this stunt on your players do you think they would be happy? Would they congratulate you on your awesome system mastery or walk out and think you're being an a$$hat?

If you wouldn't do it to the players they shouldn't expect to do it to you.

No...so many ways, no.

Sovereign Court

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Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
And why do the Eagles get to hit their targets without an attack roll?

Becasue so far we have not talked about it. Don't get any of this mixed up. My players are not "up to" anything.

They have come to me with a series of interactions. I am now coming to the community looking for a way to not have it so excessive.

If there is an attack roll, is that enough to make it balanced. I am not so sure it is. I have thought about requiring a touch attack roll with a penalty. Range increment of 30' so a -12 vs touch AC. That make it seem more balanced?


OilHorse wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
And why do the Eagles get to hit their targets without an attack roll?

Becasue so far we have not talked about it. Don't get any of this mixed up. My players are not "up to" anything.

They have come to me with a series of interactions. I am now coming to the community looking for a way to not have it so excessive.

If there is an attack roll, is that enough to make it balanced. I am not so sure it is. I have thought about requiring a touch attack roll with a penalty. Range increment of 30' so a -12 vs touch AC. That make it seem more balanced?

Kinda sounds like he should just spend the turns and actions as you explained the action. Invest in a Quickening rod for the summoning, or give the familiar a wand and invest in UMD.

Sovereign Court

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Spacelard wrote:

If I pulled this trick at a table as a GM all my players would walk calling me a d!*k GM, complain here about me pulling such a douche move and I'd bet no one would disagree with them.

If you pulled this stunt on your players do you think they would be happy? Would they congratulate you on your awesome system mastery or walk out and think you're being an a$$hat?

If you wouldn't do it to the players they shouldn't expect to do it to you.

No...so many ways, no.

As a DM you surprise your players with this move.

As my players they are having the discussion about it before even trying it....so you are a bit off of base with the accusations.

Wanna talk about it, then let's chat about what to do to make this happen for my players in a fair and balanced way.

Much of their process works in the rules...but it is over the top. They always bring their "out of the box" thinking to me first to make sure that it is going to be ok.

This time I came to ask the community for help.

Sovereign Court

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Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

Also, they can't appear up there, even if they can fly.

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
As I understand it the main point of that is to prevent exactly such shenanigans.

KK, fair enough. Good call on this.

Sovereign Court

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Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
OilHorse wrote:
Much of their process works in the rules...but it is over the top. They always bring their "out of the box" thinking to me first to make sure they it is going to be ok.
That's good behavior on their part, but they still can't summon creatures into empty space under the rules.

It is. We are a small close knit group. I just replied to you mentioning that. Good call. I will mention that.

EDIT: And you just deleted your comment.


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So for most arcane damage spells...

Most require:
A touch attack
A save
Resistible damage
1d6/level damage
Resisted by SR
Either 1 target, or an area effect
Close or medium range (30-150 ft.)
Standard action to use

So your player is proposing to skip basically everything on the list by making it take longer to use? There's a few problems.

The most comparable effect is probably the Kineticist's supercharged gather power blast. You spend an extra round and a half to add 3 free burn. 3 free burn is less than it costs to use the Pure Flame Infusion (4), which makes you bypass SR. Kineticist composite blast damage is comparable to 1d6/level, and still takes a touch attack or save, and will still get axed by energy resistance. Granted, with your other cost reducers, you should be able to do this multiple times a day, but a 4th level spell will be available much earlier and usable a similar number of times.

Storm of Vengeance is also somewhat comparable, but it does much less damage, takes up a much higher spell slot, and is still resistible by SR and energy resistance. And the damage is fairly tame. Magic Missile skips saves and touch attacks, but is resisted by SR, has a really short range, and the damage is junk. This sort of spell is a 9th level+ sort of thing, comparable to cheesing mythic feather fall for massive damage. And even that requires touch attacks. This is like getting a mega coven of witches with the CL boost hex, but with only two rounds of prep time and fewer moving parts. 20d6 is too much, and that sort of damage only enters the question with 6th level+ single target spells (Harm, Disintegrate, etc.).

Besides that, it is hugely situational and fairly bad for game dynamics - likely to be very, very useful in combats where you get the jump on enemies, and really awful when you don't. Consider the conditions:
1. Combat is outdoors with little cover
2. Combat has a small number (2-5) of powerful enemies (7th level+)
3. Combat takes more than 3 rounds
4. The caster doesn't take so much as a scratch over the course of casting
Outdoors with little cover is possible. Small number of powerful enemies is also possible. If you meet an enemy party while on the road, this will likely happen. Combat taking more than 3 rounds is also possible, although less likely. Not getting hurt is also a possibility, although you'll have to be dodgy and careful. However, all of these taking place simultaneously is fairly unlikely. 1-2 powerful enemies will get ganged up on. 3-5 will put you into a fight for your life. If you are fighting 1-2 enemies, they will likely either get ganged up on and killed, or will take out some of you pretty quickly. 3-5 will require everyone contributing to combat. If one character is sitting around charging up his murder-spell, he will likely get chopped at by a sufficiently powerful enemy, or only need the spell as some sort of mop-up. Either way, that's 2 rounds of being dead weight, and a chance of being a game-ender. It doesn't seem fair to other party members. They spend 2 rounds fighting while one player spends 2 rounds being utterly useless. Then, they either fizzle after taking damage (likely), stop the spell because all enemies are dead (likely), or kill every enemy of importance (unlikely). All this doesn't sound very fun.

Oh, and abuse potential. Cast it at night when everyone is sleeping, slay the rest of the party, and take the loot.


I am not sure even a summoned creature is going to commit suicide just because you summoned it. Fighting to the death is one thing but deliberately committing suicide is not something that intelligent creatures are normally willing to do.

Dive bombing a creature will require an attack roll. I would say it would be considered a combat maneuver so it would be CMB vs CMD. The -12 penalty seems about right so that would be a CMB at -12 vs the targets CMD. When the targets hits it should also get any damage reduction it has. Spell resistance or energy resistance does not apply, but it is still a physical attack so should get damage reduction. A giant eagle has normally has a CMB of 9 which drops to a -3 after penalty. This means the giant eagle needs to roll a 13 or better to hit a 1st level commoner with no STR or DEX bonus. To hit a typical 1st level fighter with an 18 STR and 12 DEX will require a 19 or 20. VS a higher level character you probably need to roll a natural 20 to hit.

Also a simple protection from good will stop this combination cold. The eagles will bounce of the protection from evil like a bug on a window.

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Ahh, so you misrepresented your position just to make things ridiculous, got it. I very nearly didn't say anything because of that, but whatever, I considered the situation and may as well put my thoughts out there.

First off, I would be incredibly skeptical of anyone saying that a summoned creature would commit suicide because you said so.

PRD Summon Monster I wrote:


This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

Emphasis mine. It doesn't say that the creature does anything without question, simply that it attacks opponents to the best of its abilities. So there's the first problem I see. But whatever, people already pointed out that the creatures have to be on a solid surface anyway. Let's say it worked anyway.

If a creature is adjusting its course, I wouldn't give it full falling damage. Either it's falling like a brick, or it isn't. I'm not sure how I'd rule it, but I'd probably cap the damage at 15d6 at most. You're also forgetting the damage from the supposed object's weight, but I digress.

If something's falling on a creature, they should get a Reflex save to dodge, or it should be an attack roll, like the falling stone block trap.

PRD Trap Section wrote:


FALLING BLOCK TRAP CR 5
Type mechanical; Perception DC 20; Disable Device DC 20
EFFECTS
Trigger location; Reset manual
Effect Atk +15 melee (6d6); multiple targets (all targets in a 10-ft. square)

I would probably go with the giant eagle making an attack roll. Counting it as from higher ground, on a charge, that would grant +3 to hit. But even so, they would also take the damage.

Of course, as per my first point, the birds would just ignore the command to die, and instead just make normal attacks on the targets. Summoned, not suicidal.

Sovereign Court

My Self wrote:

So for most arcane damage spells...

Most require:
A touch attack
A save
Resistible damage
1d6/level damage
Resisted by SR
Either 1 target, or an area effect
Close or medium range (30-150 ft.)
Standard action to use

So your player is proposing to skip basically everything on the list by making it take longer to use? There's a few problems.

The most comparable effect is probably the Kineticist's supercharged gather power blast. You spend an extra round and a half to add 3 free burn. 3 free burn is less than it costs to use the Pure Flame Infusion (4), which makes you bypass SR. Kineticist composite blast damage is comparable to 1d6/level, and still takes a touch attack or save, and will still get axed by energy resistance. Granted, with your other cost reducers, you should be able to do this multiple times a day, but a 4th level spell will be available much earlier and usable a similar number of times.

Storm of Vengeance is also somewhat comparable, but it does much less damage, takes up a much higher spell slot, and is still resistible by SR and energy resistance. And the damage is fairly tame. Magic Missile skips saves and touch attacks, but is resisted by SR, has a really short range, and the damage is junk. This sort of spell is a 9th level+ sort of thing, comparable to cheesing mythic feather fall for massive damage. And even that requires touch attacks. This is like getting a mega coven of witches with the CL boost hex, but with only two rounds of prep time and fewer moving parts. 20d6 is too much, and that sort of damage only enters the question with 6th level+ single target spells (Harm, Disintegrate, etc.).

Besides that, it is hugely situational and fairly bad for game dynamics - likely to be very, very useful in combats where you get the jump on enemies, and really awful when you don't. Consider the conditions:
1. Combat is outdoors with little cover
2. Combat has a small number (2-5) of powerful enemies (7th level+)
3. Combat takes more than 3 rounds
4. The caster doesn't...

All fair. Thanks for the good write up.

Find my other post about what is actually going on with the Thrush and such.

Give me your thoughts on that.

The interesting thing is that the spellcaster is our shaman player who is always our support player. He is a smart guy who like to play non-direct offensive characters, he is also helped by his friend who likes to take corner cases and make something out of them.

Sovereign Court

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

I am not sure even a summoned creature is going to commit suicide just because you summoned it. Fighting to the death is one thing but deliberately committing suicide is not something that intelligent creatures are normally willing to do.

Dive bombing a creature will require an attack roll. I would say it would be considered a combat maneuver so it would be CMB vs CMD. The -12 penalty seems about right so that would be a CMB at -12 vs the targets CMD. When the targets hits it should also get any damage reduction it has. Spell resistance or energy resistance does not apply, but it is still a physical attack so should get damage reduction. A giant eagle has normally has a CMB of 9 which drops to a -3 after penalty. This means the giant eagle needs to roll a 13 or better to hit a 1st level commoner with no STR or DEX bonus. To hit a typical 1st level fighter with an 18 STR and 12 DEX will require a 19 or 20. VS a higher level character you probably need to roll a natural 20 to hit.

Also a simple protection from good will stop this combination cold. The eagles will bounce of the protection from evil like a bug on a window.

Good thoughts. I may not penalize as much if I make it a combat maneuver check, but that is a fair way to look at it.

The PvEvil thing only works if the creatures summoned are evil. Eagles are not evil...not normally.

i like your thoughts.


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So what are folks thinking, now? That the eagles have to be summoned on the ground/clifftop/etc. and spend any necessary time getting to 200 ft up before they can dive-bomb?

And why a CMB? Which maneuver? Why not a simple ranged-touch attack? (At that -12.) After all, if the eagle simply touches the target, their weight gets dropped on said target. Either way, the ground gets dropped on the eagle, poor thing, but it may have urgent personal business to get back to.

{PS: I'm voting for good or evil eagles. Well, celestial or infernal eagles, or any others you can dredge up from other planes. Doing this with truly commanded-to-suicide eagles is a heinous act in my eyes, although let me hasten to add that I'm not necessarily talking about mandatory alignment shifts.}

Forgive me for sounding so curmudgeonly, but I'm sitting here on the sidelines figuring out GM-craft on a bad day (personal stuff).

Sovereign Court

Cydeth wrote:

Ahh, so you misrepresented your position just to make things ridiculous, got it. I very nearly didn't say anything because of that, but whatever, I considered the situation and may as well put my thoughts out there.

First off, I would be incredibly skeptical of anyone saying that a summoned creature would commit suicide because you said so.

PRD Summon Monster I wrote:


This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

Emphasis mine. It doesn't say that the creature does anything without question, simply that it attacks opponents to the best of its abilities. So there's the first problem I see. But whatever, people already pointed out that the creatures have to be on a solid surface anyway. Let's say it worked anyway.

If a creature is adjusting its course, I wouldn't give it full falling damage. Either it's falling like a brick, or it isn't. I'm not sure how I'd rule it, but I'd probably cap the damage at 15d6 at most. You're also forgetting the damage from the supposed object's weight, but I digress.

If something's falling on a creature, they should get a Reflex save to dodge, or it should be an attack roll, like the falling stone block trap.

PRD Trap Section wrote:


FALLING BLOCK TRAP CR 5
Type mechanical; Perception DC 20; Disable Device DC 20
EFFECTS
Trigger location; Reset manual
Effect Atk +15 melee (6d6); multiple targets (all targets in a 10-ft. square)

I would probably go with the giant eagle making an attack roll. Counting it as from higher ground, on a charge, that would grant +3 to hit. But even so, they would also take the damage.

Of course, as per my first...

Don't attribute to malice...There was no real attempt for deception. I felt it was easier to portray it as a spell and gauge replies. As the replies came in I decided to open up on the actuality of what is happening.

There is also no reason to think that they would not have an issue with the suicide bomber tactic. They don't actually die. Quickly finishing the activity they were asked to do is certainly in their best interests. It is a very grey area and I am not interested in going there, it is not important enough to wade into.

Is there a differing series of damage based on weight? Where can I find that?

Sovereign Court

bitter lily wrote:

So what are folks thinking, now? That the eagles have to be summoned on the ground/clifftop/etc. and spend any necessary time getting to 200 ft up before they can dive-bomb?

And why a CMB? Which maneuver? Why not a simple ranged-touch attack? (At that -12.) After all, if the eagle simply touches the target, their weight gets dropped on said target. Either way, the ground gets dropped on the eagle, poor thing, but it may have urgent personal business to get back to.

{PS: I'm voting for good or evil eagles. Well, celestial or infernal eagles, or any others you can dredge up from other planes. Doing this with truly commanded-to-suicide eagles is a heinous act in my eyes, although let me hasten to add that I'm not necessarily talking about mandatory alignment shifts.}

Forgive me for sounding so curmudgeonly, but I'm sitting here on the sidelines figuring out GM-craft on a bad day (personal stuff).

@ bold...exactly,even eagles have business to attend to,it ain't just all flying.

I am uninterested in taking a side on whether this would be an Evil act or not. The summoned creature does not actually die so suicide is not actually real.

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OilHorse wrote:


Don't attribute to malice...There was no real attempt for deception. I felt it was easier to portray it as a spell and gauge replies. As the replies came in I decided to open up on the actuality of what is happening.

There is also no reason to think that they would not have an issue with the suicide bomber tactic. They don't actually die. Quickly finishing the activity they were asked to do is certainly in their best interests. It is a very grey area and I am not interested in going there, it is not important enough to wade into.

Is there a differing series of damage based on weight? Where can I find that?

The internet is tone deaf. The way you opened up seemed, to me, like a bait-and-switch gotcha moment, which definitely put me off things. Anyway...

Somehow I missed that they're regular eagles (why did I think giant eagles, which are intelligent?) but that just furthers the question of why a regular animal would commit suicide. It makes no sense at all. If you look at the regular summoning subtype of the Conjuration school, you would see that the creatures take 24 hours to reform, too, at which point they can be summoned again. I don't know about you, but even if I wouldn't really die, I wouldn't be willing to jump to my death for someone who randomly summoned me. And I'm sorry, but in my opinion this is the most important aspect of the strategy. Unless the person can communicate with them, which the thrush may be able to (but does it count as you for giving orders?), they won't even attack that much.

And there's an entire section on Falling in the core rulebook. Look it up, I'm not bothering to copy it. I'm done here.

The Exchange

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Similar 3rd level spell that is way weaker and still great.
call lightning


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Ok, first off (and I am suprised nobody caught that) but you are reading the chart for you falling, not something falling on you. :)
Right below the Falling heading in the Environmental section is the Falling Objects section where it details what happens when something falls on you.

Falling Objects wrote:

Just as characters take damage when they fall more than 10 feet, so too do they take damage when they are hit by falling objects.

Objects that fall upon characters deal damage based on their size and the distance they have fallen. Table: Damage from Falling Objects determines the amount of damage dealt by an object based on its size. Note that this assumes that the object is made of dense, heavy material, such as stone. Objects made of lighter materials might deal as little as half the listed damage, subject to GM discretion. For example, a Huge boulder that hits a character deals 6d6 points of damage, whereas a Huge wooden wagon might deal only 3d6 damage. In addition, if an object falls less than 30 feet, it deals half the listed damage. If an object falls more than 150 feet, it deals double the listed damage. Note that a falling object takes the same amount of damage as it deals.

Dropping an object on a creature requires a ranged touch attack. Such attacks generally have a range increment of 20 feet. If an object falls on a creature (instead of being thrown), that creature can make a DC 15 Reflex save to halve the damage if he is aware of the object. Falling objects that are part of a trap use the trap rules instead of these general guidelines.

Table: Damage from Falling Objects wrote:

Small___2d6

Medium___3d6
Large___4d6
Huge___6d6
Gargantuan___8d6
Colossal___10d6

So according to this, you would take a small object (2d6), half it for light object (and birds are really, really light >_>) (1d6), and double it for falling distance (2d6).

To do this, you would have to make a ranged touch attack roll to hit and the target would get a DC 15 ref save to avoid it.

If I was the GM I would say that the eagle makes the attack roll, and I would give him the Death from Above feat for that attack, but then it gets unsommoned (splat).

Then I would come up with some sort of spleal about how the eagle can either attack normally, or make a 1-shot attack against touch AC by doing this, after which he reflects on his stupid, stupid actions as he reforms the next day. I would also warn them about the upcoming Chicken Summoner of DOOM that they may face one day >:)

In closing, 2d6 damage, Touch Attack to hit, Ref save to avoid. It seems rather reasonable to me.

Edit: Found it! This nameless idiot >:)
And Exposition -_-


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OilHorse wrote:

All fair. Thanks for the good write up.

Find my other post about what is actually going on with the Thrush and such.

Give me your thoughts on that.

The interesting thing is that the spellcaster is our shaman player who is always our support player. He is a smart guy who like to play non-direct offensive characters, he is also helped by his friend who likes to take corner cases and make something out of them.

Similar things hold true about the thrush situation. However, the caster isn't spending multiple rounds charging up a single cast, so some of the statements I made about inefficiency and not contributing do not hold. It's still anticompetitive, but the caster isn't otherwise useless at this point.

Dropping items on other people requires a ranged touch attack roll (20 ft. range increment) - I don't see why hitting someone else with your falling body wouldn't require some sort of attack roll. The rules are confusing at this point, and it would be better to have an individual GM case for this and stick with it. You're either in houserule territory or overly-pedantic-close-reading land. Consider allowing the target to make a reflex save (like for falling objects), having the attacker make a ranged/melee touch attack (like for dropping objects), or having the attacker make an acrobatics check (like for avoiding falling damage) would all be reasonable things to do. Or a CMB check (like bull rushing) or a fly check. Since the summons aren't descending under their own power (80 ft. flight speed), you could also roll a die to see if they fall into the square they intend to. Or you could scale the damage to a comparable (lower-level) spell - perhaps Fireball or Scorching Ray. The important points are that no damage is entirely unavoidable (0 failure chance) without having already defeated the enemy, you should be consistent with existing rules if possible, and since you are in houserule territory, there are houserule ways to perhaps mitigate your problem.

Also take note of the dense/heavy object and lighter object section of the falling rules. I suspect bodies might count as lighter objects, and thus do 1/2 damage (and not hit like anvils). People on this board understand falling damage to not be reduced by DR. However, you could consider this sort of dive-bombing as an attack, and subject it to be reduced by DR. Alternatively, an in-game option would be to have the Shaman's spirits get displeased, and the eagles/thrush/PETA/whatever become somewhat belligerent about the animal abuse. Or you could give some hesitancy about allowing the Shaman to prepare that spell: "As you perform your ritual chants to regain your spells, the spirits seem somewhat reluctant to grant you command over the eagles." Not that you need to deny use of the spell (or spellcasting) entirely, but just expressing vague displeasure may get a careful player to stop. There is also the out-of-gameplay option: Just ask the player to cut it out. But whatever you do, inform the players if you make major changes, and be consistent and reasonable about it.

But if everyone is having fun (yourself included), and your table (including you) would not have more fun if this combination were illegal, then you don't need to change a thing.

Sovereign Court

Cydeth wrote:
OilHorse wrote:


Don't attribute to malice...There was no real attempt for deception. I felt it was easier to portray it as a spell and gauge replies. As the replies came in I decided to open up on the actuality of what is happening.

There is also no reason to think that they would not have an issue with the suicide bomber tactic. They don't actually die. Quickly finishing the activity they were asked to do is certainly in their best interests. It is a very grey area and I am not interested in going there, it is not important enough to wade into.

Is there a differing series of damage based on weight? Where can I find that?

The internet is tone deaf. The way you opened up seemed, to me, like a bait-and-switch gotcha moment, which definitely put me off things. Anyway...

Somehow I missed that they're regular eagles (why did I think giant eagles, which are intelligent?) but that just furthers the question of why a regular animal would commit suicide. It makes no sense at all. If you look at the regular summoning subtype of the Conjuration school, you would see that the creatures take 24 hours to reform, too, at which point they can be summoned again. I don't know about you, but even if I wouldn't really die, I wouldn't be willing to jump to my death for someone who randomly summoned me. And I'm sorry, but in my opinion this is the most important aspect of the strategy. Unless the person can communicate with them, which the thrush may be able to (but does it count as you for giving orders?), they won't even attack that much.

And there's an entire section on Falling in the core rulebook. Look it up, I'm not bothering to copy it. I'm done here.

I was gonna read your whole post but I saw the end...

See ya.


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OilHorse wrote:
I am pretty sure the interaction of what they are trying to do is fairly sound mechanically.

You are mistaken on several counts.

Quote:


Spellcaster has a Thrush familiar. Said familiar can speak with animals.

Spellcaster will have the Thrush fly in the air about 200'.

Using a Reach metamagic feat the Spellcaster will Summon 1d4+1 eagles with Summon Monster 3. Said Eagles will appear next to the Thrush.

This is OK.

Quote:
The next round the Thrush will communicate to the Eagles to "divebomb"/"control fall" onto enemies on the ground.

Nope. There is nothing in the summoning spell that suggests:

1) summoned creatures will blindly obey self-destructive orders
2) that they will obey a thrush (even if it's your familiar) just because it can talk to them
3) that they will do precisely what you say

"It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions."

Note that it says "you", not "your familiar". And as the GM, you should be putting reasonable limits on what the summoned creature can be directed to do as part of "performing other actions". Attacking a creature that might get it killed is OK. Literally committing suicide as the attack action is not.

Second, hitting something from the air is an attack and requires a die roll. There's no automatic hit here.

Quote:
3rd round the Eagles do as such and if I understand it right the impact of a falling object from that height will cause 20d6 damage to both target and falling object.

Nope. That is the damage when you, personally, fall. The damage from objects falling on you is much, much different, and dependent on size and altitude. An eagle is a small animal, so damage is 2d6 base, 4d6 if falling from > 150'. And probably halved for being light, so we're back to 2d6. Assuming this whole setup was reasonable. Which it isn't.

Edited to add: Ninja'd!


It seems to me that you are just ignoring all the good advice and at one point didn't even read one very well thought out post just because he wouldn't post a full paragraph or two and said for you to look it up. Don't come here if you don't want advice


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OilHorse wrote:
Cydeth wrote:
OilHorse wrote:


Don't attribute to malice...There was no real attempt for deception. I felt it was easier to portray it as a spell and gauge replies. As the replies came in I decided to open up on the actuality of what is happening.

...

The internet is tone deaf. The way you opened up seemed, to me, like a bait-and-switch gotcha moment, which definitely put me off things. Anyway...

...

And there's an entire section on Falling in the core rulebook. Look it up, I'm not bothering to copy it. I'm done here.

I was gonna read your whole post but I saw the end...

See ya.

Dox of the ParaDox twins wrote:
It seems to me that you are just ignoring all the good advice and at one point didn't even read one very well thought out post just because he wouldn't post a full paragraph or two and said for you to look it up. Don't come here if you don't want advice

Something about the general tone makes me suspect that we're on the express train to flamewar-ville. *Toot toot!*


I don't mean to start anything, it just makes me mad that the OP refuses to read posts because of arbitrary BS reasons


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I MIGHT say 1d6/level, at fourth, but the consensus that (as writ) this is over powered is accurate. Even Magic Missile caps at 5d4+5, and that's the only spell of that level that does what it does. And takes forever to get there. Compare what he wants to Cone of Cold, a FIFTH level spell that caps out at 15d5, and Fireball, a third level which caps out at 10d6. No attack roll, no save? Sorry but even for a total of a two-round delay on it (a LOT can happen in two rounds), that's broken.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Dox of the ParaDox twins wrote:
It seems to me that you are just ignoring all the good advice and at one point didn't even read one very well thought out post just because he wouldn't post a full paragraph or two and said for you to look it up. Don't come here if you don't want advice

Then you have not been reading.

I have read pretty much every post and have thanked some for what they have said.

Said poster was dismissive and rude and said he was done with the thread. So I said farewell.


OilHorse wrote:
There is also no reason to think that they would not have an issue with the suicide bomber tactic. They don't actually die.

A summoned animal is still an animal. Do you really think summoned animals somehow understand the mechanics of summoning just because they were summoned?

An eagle is an animal. It has an Int of 2. They aren't thinking "I don't really die". They think "I was flying there. Now suddenly I am here. I hate those things down there for some reason."

That is the extent of animal intelligence.

Sovereign Court

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My Self wrote:
OilHorse wrote:

All fair. Thanks for the good write up.

Find my other post about what is actually going on with the Thrush and such.

Give me your thoughts on that.

The interesting thing is that the spellcaster is our shaman player who is always our support player. He is a smart guy who like to play non-direct offensive characters, he is also helped by his friend who likes to take corner cases and make something out of them.

Similar things hold true about the thrush situation. However, the caster isn't spending multiple rounds charging up a single cast, so some of the statements I made about inefficiency and not contributing do not hold. It's still anticompetitive, but the caster isn't otherwise useless at this point.

Dropping items on other people requires a ranged touch attack roll (20 ft. range increment) - I don't see why hitting someone else with your falling body wouldn't require some sort of attack roll. The rules are confusing at this point, and it would be better to have an individual GM case for this and stick with it. You're either in houserule territory or overly-pedantic-close-reading land. Consider allowing the target to make a reflex save (like for falling objects), having the attacker make a ranged/melee touch attack (like for dropping objects), or having the attacker make an acrobatics check (like for avoiding falling damage) would all be reasonable things to do. Or a CMB check (like bull rushing) or a fly check. Since the summons aren't descending under their own power (80 ft. flight speed), you could also roll a die to see if they fall into the square they intend to. Or you could scale the damage to a comparable (lower-level) spell - perhaps Fireball or Scorching Ray. The important points are that no damage is entirely unavoidable (0 failure chance) without having already defeated the enemy, you should be consistent with existing rules if possible, and since you are in houserule territory, there are houserule ways to perhaps mitigate your problem.

Also take note of...

Oh this is definitely in houserule territory, and I don't mind that, nor do the players. Thus this is why it is brought up to get a ruling.

I would say I agree that there needs to be some sort of attack roll, and use some sort of penalty due to range.

I will need to have a sit down and mention about the damage discrepancy that has been mentioned by a few posters, this is for sure. Just this part alone probably just makes the whole "dive bombing eagles" tactic fairly underpowered for using a 3rd level summon spell to drop 2d6 per summoned creature on enemies....or maybe not total would be 10d6...it certainly is not as overpowered as at the beginning.

In the end the fun factor is very important to me. Thus I just don't lead with "no", or even "no,but". I try to say yes/sure and reign it in if it is too much, like here.

Sovereign Court

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John Mechalas wrote:
OilHorse wrote:
There is also no reason to think that they would not have an issue with the suicide bomber tactic. They don't actually die.

A summoned animal is still an animal. Do you really think summoned animals somehow understand the mechanics of summoning just because they were summoned?

An eagle is an animal. It has an Int of 2. They aren't thinking "I don't really die". They think "I was flying there. Now suddenly I am here. I hate those things down there for some reason."

That is the extent of animal intelligence.

I get your point, but at that level of thinking about it these summoned creatures would be scared out of their mind and probably just want to flee from the whole scene anyway. But they do "hate" those things and have been directed to do a series of actions to the best of their abilities. The summon spell is already modifying their thought patterns,to me there is not enough reason to disallow the dive bomb order.

I have no problem with the theory debate, but I have no issue with the suicide bomber order being followed in this scenario.

Any other mechanics you think I should be looking at to tweak?

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