Zach Davis |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I will be GMing this at PaizoCon, and while I haven't received the PDF yet I want to start prepping what I can. Reading the scenario description it mentions the NPC Zahra from season 2. I have not played or run the scenario she is in though. Does anyone know how much info about her is given in the intro of the scenario? I'm hoping it gives a recap of any info that would be relevant without spoiling the other scenario so that I can do her character justice.
chris manning Venture-Captain, Isles—Online |
Terminalmancer Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Pittsburgh |
1bent1 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage |
Terminalmancer Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Pittsburgh |
1bent1 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage |
So during the chase in "Hunting the Shark" Tsomo's movement starts each round at three cards and the party can decrease that with the obstacles they create that round correct?
If that is correct I believe this is a great improvement in the Chase mechanic.
First the party moves as a whole, no one is left to try to overcome skills they only have a snowballs chance of completing on their own.
Second by keeping the party together there is no situation where a party member is left to confront a enemy (some alone with the real possibility of having the rest of the party several rounds later or perhaps not at all.
Third this keeps the individual party members active even if they have no skills that have a reasonable chance of succeeding with the ability of aiding other each round. With previously having no ability to impact the encounter and realistically perhaps not even participating can be very disenfranchising as a player.
On the flip side this chase is over in one round if the party rolls poorly on creating an obstacle, if they did not prevent the explosion in the Glass Pit and also stop to assist Lileone. that could be seen as adding insult to injury for a group that has been struggling through out the scenario.
Over all I like it a lot.
Linda Zayas-Palmer Developer |
I have a question: how is 8-19 a "Silver Crusade" scenario?
Other than fighting some evil antagonists I see no connection. None of the of the villains fit the silver Crusade's hit list.
What am I missing?
We'd initially planned to make this scenario a Silver Crusade adventure, but as the plot developed, that aspect fell by the wayside.
Terminalmancer Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Pittsburgh |
1bent1 wrote:We'd initially planned to make this scenario a Silver Crusade adventure, but as the plot developed, that aspect fell by the wayside.I have a question: how is 8-19 a "Silver Crusade" scenario?
Other than fighting some evil antagonists I see no connection. None of the of the villains fit the silver Crusade's hit list.
What am I missing?
Do you think you could queue up a change to the product page for 8-19, to remove the silver crusade note? I'll try to remember to mention it when I run this scenario, but I know we've got players who pick characters based on the factions listed on the product page.
Terminalmancer Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Pittsburgh |
Scott Young Venture-Lieutenant, Canada—Manitoba |
Just starting to prep this... it looks really fun! Good catch about the subjective gravity, that should be a fun addition.
Looking at the chase scene... what reason can we give PCs to not just attack Tsomo instead of trying all of the "slow him down" tactics? Many of the options seem to imply he's prettyt close (throwing jellyfish into his eyes, etc.), so why can't the paty just grapple him or hit him with hold person or something?
rknop |
If you don't want to deal with subjective gravity, most of the scenario takes place within the city of Vialek, the big trade city on Water. It would not be surprising if the place were "consensus stabilized" in gravity much like Armun Kelisk on air. The scenario doesn't say that, but it also doesn't call out subjective gravity, so you could probably go either way.
(Or, this whole post is me trying to rationalize why when I ran it, I didn't think at all about subjective gravity.... :) )
Mr. Bonkers |
Looking at the chase scene... what reason can we give PCs to not just attack Tsomo instead of trying all of the "slow him down" tactics? Many of the options seem to imply he's prettyt close (throwing jellyfish into his eyes, etc.), so why can't the paty just grapple him or hit him with hold person or something?
I'm prepping as well to run this next saturday, and I really like the dynamic chase scene. As for reasons to not simply stop him in his tracks: It is stated that Tsumo tosses several grenades around to keep the local guards busy with rescuing civilians instead of hampering his escape. These bystanders probably also get in the way of the PC's, making sure simply attacking him is very difficult without consequenses.
Although a Grapple attempt might be out of the question (as there is still a small distance implied between the PC's and Tsomo), I would allow spellcasting to slow him down. There is a stated concentration check in the scenario for casting spells during this chase, I would consider that the required DC to gain a succes. But only for spells that hamper his movement (Shadow Trap, Hold Monster, and the like). I would not give Tsomo a save if they made the concentration check, but let it count as a single slow down (as if he failed his save, but got better the next round). If they insist on using the grapple option (and give a good reason why it should be allowed), also let it count as single slow down succes. State something like: "you managed to get a hold of his foot, but he quickly kicks you in the nads and manages to get away. He missed his opportunity to make it over the crossroads before the turtlecart got in the way, though."
Eleanor Ferron Developer |
Tsomo's a monstrous humanoid so Hold Person doesn't work, and the PCs aren't likely to have Hold Monster at that tier - otherwise I agree with Mr. Bonkers. Most of the areas are filled with civilians that get in the PCs' way, and those areas that aren't are called out (lightning spells in the engineering bay or ranged attacks in the final straightaway). Spells would probably count as slowing him down.
Terminalmancer Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Pittsburgh |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Final report: holy crap, you guys were not messing around. I think this might be the best 3.x investigation scenario I have either played or GMed.
Some after-action notes:
Terminalmancer Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Pittsburgh |
I'm prepping to run this and I noticed that Lileone has a golden wayfinder on her person. Is she also a Pathfinder agent like Zahra and/or the undine's superior?
Thanks in advance!
I assumed she was a Pathfinder, with that much bling on her badge of office. Zahra has worked with her for quite some time according to Zahra's portion of the briefing. I don't think it's explicitly spelled out anywhere in the scenario, however.
GM Lamplighter |
Still prepping, so the feedback is useful, Terminalmancer!
Still worried about the chase. Sure, some options like black tentacles would basically guarantee a huge number of civilian casualties, and so I'm confident I can talk the players out of that. But what about simple tanglefoot bags? How far away is he? Fine, -4 for cover, -4 for being "in melee" with the crowd he's pushing through... some kind of indeterminate range penalty. It's not ridiculous for players to want to try this as a tactic.
I think the problem is, the game has evolved to be a tactical wargame as far as positioning and movement goes. There are whole character concepts, as well as individual spells, feats, etc. that just don't work if you remove the grid. Given TM's report that this ran long, I'm wondering if this is the scene I shorten and narrate to make up time.
Terminalmancer Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Pittsburgh |
Still prepping, so the feedback is useful, Terminalmancer!
Still worried about the chase. Sure, some options like black tentacles would basically guarantee a huge number of civilian casualties, and so I'm confident I can talk the players out of that. But what about simple tanglefoot bags? How far away is he? Fine, -4 for cover, -4 for being "in melee" with the crowd he's pushing through... some kind of indeterminate range penalty. It's not ridiculous for players to want to try this as a tactic.
I think the problem is, the game has evolved to be a tactical wargame as far as positioning and movement goes. There are whole character concepts, as well as individual spells, feats, etc. that just don't work if you remove the grid. Given TM's report that this ran long, I'm wondering if this is the scene I shorten and narrate to make up time.
Both of our tables went long this time around, so it could happen again. And if you do need to trim something, the chase does seem to be the least satisfying part of the scenario--at least it was for my table. Your mileage may vary?
If I ever figure out a better way to run this chase I'll certainly let someone know. I think we're just stuck with some amount of cognitive dissonance. My group teleported a card ahead and I set the docks to the side and let them corner him there, so at least we didn't spend too long on it...
Zach Davis |
First off thanks Terminalmancer for putting up the timekeeping sheet. In regards to the chase I have mixed feelings. I love the concept. Having the group move together, and creating obstacles rather than overcoming them is interesting. It also avoids situations I've run into in the past where the party splits because one or more players simply can't pass certain squares without a natural 20. That said I agree that it is very meta, and creates a disconnect where they possibly think more as players than as their characters. I'm wondering if I should show them the chase diagram at all? Maybe it would flow better if the action and setting of the scene were described, and I just kept track of their progress myself.
Dalzarin |
Zach Davis, I actually really like that idea. It opens up a lot of options, and I enjoy making players unsure about what's going on in a behind the scenes mechanical sense, because I think it heightens their sense of the peril of the situation. They will still want to pick the strongest options for their characters, but since the "distance" is much more abstracted in this version of the chase mechanic anyway, I don't see why I can't completely abstract it and just provide updates like "You're gaining on him" and "He's pulling away, and getting closer to the docks!" when I run it next month.
To Mr. Bonkers, I think I have to disagree about allowing a save. It depends a little on what they're using and where, though. When they specifically mention a spell, I think the concentration check pretty much does the job; but if that's all you're rolling it's WAY easier to succeed than the other checks. Admittedly, you are spending a resource, but a concentration check on, say, shocking grasp to the water is DC 11. A third level wizard/sorcerer with 18 in the relevant stat is rolling that at +7, and needs all of a 4. That one, I would probably grant, because the spell doesn't allow a save and the character would be targeting the water, which would all but magnetically attract the electricity. But most other attempts, I'd set the bar a little higher, especially for something not specifically mentioned.
Really looking forward to running this -- and glad the venue I'm using is flexible about time slots after reading all the (very helpful!) comments here.
GM Lamplighter |
I think I will run the chase "theatre of the mind" style as well, and keep it as short as possible.
I'm torn; I love when scenarios feature lots of skill use, but the chase mechanic seems to concentrate on skill rolls without really justifying the effect that they have.
Thanks, everyone, for the useful suggestions! Off to PaizoCon!
pauljathome |
The local players seem to dislike most chase scenes (the one where the group was being chased by a TRex being a clear exception :-)).
When I said "Well, its a chase scene. Using BRAND NEW DIFFERENT MECHANICS" there was pretty much a collective groan.
When I basically said "You're NOT allowed to ask how far you are from the bad guy. You can sometimes interact with him but mostly can't" there were looks of resignation.
I just described what they could do from THEIR card, ignoring the fact that the bad guy was on a different card.
[Aside]By the way, how are they supposed to recognize the guy anyway? They'd never seen him before :-([/Aside]
Felt extremely meta, bunch of skill checks, then they caught up with him and went to a VERY silly and nearly irrelevant fight.
Terminalmancer Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Pittsburgh |
The local players seem to dislike most chase scenes (the one where the group was being chased by a TRex being a clear exception :-)).
When I said "Well, its a chase scene. Using BRAND NEW DIFFERENT MECHANICS" there was pretty much a collective groan.
When I basically said "You're NOT allowed to ask how far you are from the bad guy. You can sometimes interact with him but mostly can't" there were looks of resignation.
I just described what they could do from THEIR card, ignoring the fact that the bad guy was on a different card.
[Aside]By the way, how are they supposed to recognize the guy anyway? They'd never seen him before :-([/Aside]
Felt extremely meta, bunch of skill checks, then they caught up with him and went to a VERY silly and nearly irrelevant fight.
To be honest, I changed the scenario a tiny bit (GASP!) and decided that Lileone points him out to the PCs regardless of whether she got murdered or not in the process. Like you said, they've never seen him before, and in theory they could have an evacuation order going on at the same time. It seems too chaotic to make the ID without help.
Branding Opportunity |
[Aside]By the way, how are they supposed to recognize the guy anyway? They'd never seen him before :-([/Aside]
You could say that he looks a lot like the nebbishy assistant they met at Tsorro's Current Chasers (which also gives away that he was in disguise).
Branding Opportunity |
A few more things
I'm having some trouble figuring out how to explain that both Razethka and Lileone know where Tsomo's warehouse is, as is stated on page 6. How would they if he rented it under a pseudonym?
There's supposed to be alchemical residue in Tsomo's office (p. 7), but it's not listed anywhere. All that is mentioned is the murajaus, the sharks and the disguised Tsomo. I'm tempted to put it in and give the PCs a DC 14 Perception (DC 18 in Subtier 6–7) to find it.
Eleanor Ferron Developer |
Gary Bush Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha |
Dalzarin |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Either then, or the "Courage Under Pressure" portion, I think...though that part itself is still skill-check based. But, at that point, they're not so much investigating as actively thwarting a terrorist plot in progress.
You could argue either, though. And if they fail to prevent Glass Pit badness, well, then it is definitely Hunting the Shark.
Terminalmancer Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Pittsburgh |
When does the Investigation end?
I am prepping this now and I am likely to be running a 4 player table.
Right now I believe it ends when the party gets to Hunting the Shark.
1: There's a 24-hour clock. If the party hasn't finished the investigation plus the defusing, things blow up. Go to chase scene.
-or-
2: If the party finishes the investigation and finishes defusing the bombs, nothing blows up. BBEG decides to make a break for it. Go to chase scene.
So ideally for the party, #2 happens. But #1 is always looming. This is why it's important to keep track of time, as well.
*edit* Yes, the chase scene is "Hunting the Shark."
I would probably say that the investigation comes to an end when you start defusing bombs in Courage Under Pressure because there are no more things to investigate, but I guess that's mostly academic?
Qstor |
I think I will run the chase "theatre of the mind" style as well, and keep it as short as possible.
I'm torn; I love when scenarios feature lots of skill use, but the chase mechanic seems to concentrate on skill rolls without really justifying the effect that they have.
Thanks, everyone, for the useful suggestions! Off to PaizoCon!
I didn't see the usual skill list with DCs for the chase at first glance.
Nomadical |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ran this one this morning in the first slot at PaizoCon. Had a great table of mostly local Pacific NW players some of whom I've played with before, including several multi-star GMs. Low tier, unadjusted. And I'm running it twice more in the next week!
One thing that came up rather quickly was that the secondary mission wasn't really emphasized, and the wording was very very vague. I'm going to have to rephrase it tomorrow to have Zahra ask them more clearly to "also take on an additional task" so hopefully someone will pick up on it.
Several red herrings that could lead the investigation down rabbit holes (yes, I'm mixing metaphors) and get them way off track.
but I forget now.
The intro and investigation took nearly 2 hours, and I was starting to worry that we would run out of time, given how much is still left. But they cranked thru the chase (while Mark Seifter swung by our table!) and then split the party to cover Courage Under Pressure, in which they had the benefit of the guards' assistance given [Warehouse spoiler above]. I did use Terminalmancer's suggestion and had Lileone point Tsumo out of the crowd, since she would be looking for him also given [Warehouse spoiler above].
Overall a great scenario, even if the investigation can easily take too long. Everyone had fun and they all liked the modified chase mechanic (But no one wanted to save the penguins!)
CanisDirus |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Other red herrings I've noticed:
- Suspicion of Lileone (generally only by groups who learn about Malenti)
- Checking on the Sonophor to see if it was sabotaged
- Following the Sahuagin that was "casing" Yuka's shop
To deal with these, I came up with good in-game answers:
- In addition to Zahra's quasi-vouching for Lilone at the beginning of the scenario, I have most NPCs the PCs encounter also having heard of her and vouch for her unquestioning loyalty to Vialesk and to the safety of its people.
- NPCs affirming that the Sonophor is broken as often as it's working / noting that it's not really possible to sabotage since it's basically just a receiver array of shells.
- ...noting that the Sahuagin was eating a snow cone from a local vendor when the PCs confront him/her, and leaving it behind when he/she turns to go. I mention that it's herring flavored and made of mostly red ice.
If the PCs decide to continue to pursue something after a GM hint that their idea is slightly off-track, I'd just roll 1d4 hours as if they were using the time to gather information (as presented in the scenario), returning with absolute proof that these were, in fact, red herrings all along.
If I was faced with the submersible one that Nomadical mentions above, I'd just have all of them be from Yuka (the map for that area does have 4 subs present) and allow the PCs to quickly determine that none of them were made from solid iron nor had any iron residue on them.
I really enjoyed running this scenario. All of my players so far have rated it as their favorite (or close to their favorite) investigation-themed scenario to-date!
Zach Davis |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So after running this twice I noticed that both me groups were suspicious of Lileone from the start(though it got worse when they learned about the Malenti.
Both groups also chose to chase or spy on the Sahuagin outside Yuka's. I used Mike's snowcone tactic in the second run, and the players loved it! Thanks Mike for an entertaining solution.
Neither group was even remotely interested in the reef. I really had to walk a line on that one in trying to encourage them to save it without giving away why it was important to accomplish.
Running the chase scene without minis or visual cues went really well. The second group actually stood up after the conclusion, and commented how they "actually enjoyed a chase scene."
One question I have for the rest of you though; have you actually had any groups take too long investigating to save the glass pit?
CanisDirus |
Glad to be helpful! :)
The reef thing came up here with another GM's table too - we put our heads together and decided that an extra line from Zahra emphasizing that it was an "imperative" seemed to help out.
As for my area - we haven't had any groups take too long. iirc our local runs have been (approximately) 10, 13, and 15 hours so far.
Terminalmancer Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Pittsburgh |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Glad to be helpful! :)
The reef thing came up here with another GM's table too - we put our heads together and decided that an extra line from Zahra emphasizing that it was an "imperative" seemed to help out.
As for my area - we haven't had any groups take too long. iirc our local runs have been (approximately) 10, 13, and 15 hours so far.
My table lucked out a little bit--it was our first run-through, so I wasn't consciously aiming to emphasize the reef. But the players kept interrupting the mission briefing and at the end, had forgotten what the mission objectives were. So an exasperated Zahra reiterated that they had to investigate the conspiracy and save the reef if they had time.
Glad to hear the chase scene went well, Zach! That's great to hear. I may adopt that for future chases of this style.
My group decided to do some information gathering of their own so they lost a few hours there. I don't remember the exact total, but they ended up around 15 or 16 hours at the end.
Gary Bush Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I ran this on Monday and my low tier of 3 + Liam had a fun time.
They moved quickly through the investigation and got to the "Courage Under Pressure" part after about 10 hours. After the first one, they realized they could get help from Lileone and the population. Once that was done they went through the remaining 7 (yea I missed the 4 player adjustment on that part) in 9 tries.
They had already convinced Yuka to be careful and reminded him enough that he got his filters done.
In fact, everyone was helping clean up the reef by the end.
My favorite part was when the end boss threw his grenade. Rolled 2 rounds so it sat there for a while. The surge hit, which covered the dock. One of the players reminded me that the water would put out the fuse. I thanked him for the reminder.
After the surge, the grenade explored. He said "I thought the fuse was extinguished by the water" to which I replied "That is what you thought."
Next question from the whole table was "Is that on the cert?"
Fun adventure. The chase was well done and provided for several funny moments as the characters jumped, swam, and saved Penguins.
Nomadical |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I did have one group want to tail the Sahuagin. But given that the city has both air and water passages, which route do you think a Sahuagin would prefer to take to get anywhere? I told them that he walked to the nearest entrance to the water passageways, and with his 60' swim speed quickly left them in his wake. Tho, next time, maybe he'll drop his sno-cone first anyway....
I'm running it again tomorrow (3rd time's the charm, right?) All martials signed up so far. We'll see how this goes....
GM Lamplighter |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
3 runs at PaizoCon - two low, one high. People were surprised to see Tsomo's assistant at the scene of the crime, but it all made sense. Everyone saved the glasssworks, although one group only did so because they split up, and still had a couple explode. Most fights and skill checks were easy for the super-PCs. The high-tier folks especially dreaded the sharks - I had them circle near the PCs until the water trap went off.
Investigation ran long, and so I abstracted the chase to a minute of description and one skill roll each, asking the PCs to tell me what they were doing to slow him down. (Outside of combat actions, which I didn't allow. ) Most of them got it.
I made one of the murajaus talk about "ocean warming" and how all the air breathers were causing the currents to shift. At each game, the environments message seemed to come through more and more. The last table had a guy from the EPA at it, and he was all over the reef cleanup aspect. Pretty cool.
GM Erich |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ran this locally last weekend and, as many have experienced, the investigation went rather long in real time but ended at 13 hours game time. Players, of course, expected shenanigans when they discovered the fact about the Malenti but correctly attributed it to the then unseen Tsoro. They breezed through fixing the cube by splitting into reasonable groups and the final fight was simplified by a timely blindness spell on the big bad, and not having to face the sharks for but a round.
Highlight of the scenario was the out-of-tier cleric bravely rushing into a critical from the readied Sahuagin ranger in the warehouse, then deciding to finish his move near a "crossroads" in the crate maze. Another sahuagin promptly 5-foot steps into the corridor and proceeds to crit with his trident, dropping the poor soul to -20 something, which is fatal (even with the full store credit boon). Luckily, our group realizes in all the tangles of actions, another player has a readied lightning bolt for that corridor if and when "more than one target is available." Without hesitation, the cleric accepts his alternate fate, fails his reflex save, and lands at just below fatal hp from a powerful blast of electricity instead. Remember kids, there are times when 30 points of electric damage from a close friend can be quite a good thing.
Nefreet |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Played this on a Saturday at a Con and GMed it two days later at the same Con.
I was dying to play my Undine Bolt Ace through this, and I'm glad I did for RP reasons. He openly wore an unholy symbol of Kelizandri and protected himself with a Brine Dragonhide Buckler. By the middle of the scenario I de-equipped my Buckler and by the end of the scenario I paid for an Atonement and switched to worshipping Lysianassa Hanspur (I wish she was legal for worship!).
That being said, my GM clearly didn't prep the scenario. He was actually reading it in front of us. Our investigation went frustratingly slow and we skipped the chase because "no skill DCs were listed". Because of the four hour slot and our obviously slow progress I pressured the GM to fast forward to the finale and we only finished 15min late. Terrible experience.
Moral of the story: don't prep this last minute.
Keeping that in mind when it came time for me to GM this, I created "NPC cards" and "location cards". Sort of like the game of Clue. I laid them out on the table as the players encountered new NPCs or "unlocked" new locations. My players thanked me immensely, and our session finished 30min early.
Sahuagin were my absolutely most favorite monster race of 2nd Ed. I owned all of the Sea Devils booklets and the Forgotten Realms trilogy. I injected their philosophies into the interrogation of the Sahuagin scout and explained the history between Sahuagin and Sea Elves (and the creation of the Malenti) during their investigation.
Awesome, awesome scenario. My players didn't hate the chase but there were a couple groans. I tried to be as enthusiastic about it as possible, but I think there's nothing Paizo can do to change player's minds about them.
Oh! And if you don't have any large-sized shark minis, I recommend going to a party supply store. I found the perfect minis in the ten cent party favors bin ^^.
GM Harpwizard Venture-Captain, Vermont—Peacham |
In the section Couage Under Pressure, I am surprised that Disable Device is not one of the skill checks needed to find and repair the eight flaws. I suppose this emphasizes that finding the flaw is more important than fixing the flaw. Perhaps I'm just a big fan of disable device for things other than locks, but I just cannot help but imagine the excitement of trying to repair the flaws before the explosion goes off. Maybe I'm just thinking of this as deactivating a bomb.
Ascalaphus Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden |
Linda Zayas-Palmer Developer |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Keep Talking and Nobody Explodes, Plane of Water edition.
"Add the number of batteries on the bomb to the number of letters that the serial number shares with Kelizandri, then subtract the number of letters that the serial number shares with Lysianassa. No wait, don't subtract, the bomb has a parallel port."