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Sap Master Rogue states that you double the sneak attack dice on a flat footed opponent.
Scout says "whenever a scout makes a charge, her attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target were flat-footed."
So, if you combined the archtypes would this work? While charging could you do double non-lethal damage? The wording is a bit strange so I wanted some clarity.
So far I've left it up to gm discretion but my PC is getting to a level where casting vanish every turn just isn't effective....
I'd say it works. "As if it were" is a bit ambiguous, but otherwise the archetype would state something like "is considered flanked for determining sneak attack," as that's clearer language, less ambiguous. But after a quick search, I've found feats that use both wordings, so the confusion is understandable. There are different examples where Paizo uses different language to mean the same thing. I'd say that in lieu of an actual clarification, it works.
(I had a Scout Ninja that used this trick, until uncertainty whether Ninjas could take archetypes forced me to retrain.)
Note though that Sap Adept was slightly nerfed in an errata in 2015. It's still powerful, especially in combination with Scout, but be careful.
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Yes I realize. I've built a very strange rogue/monk build.
Tengu Swordmaster/Scout/Counterfeit Mage Sohei/Monk of Many Styles
The tengu can take a turn to start a tiger stance, then on the next turn get a full pounce attack with two weapons and beak, double no lethal included. It's very gimmicky but very fun to play.
Expect table variation on that Tengu. Bite attacks do bludgeon AND slash AND pierce damage. Some GMs are gonna rule that sap master won't work with it.
Expect table variation on that Tengu. Bite attacks do bludgeon AND slash AND pierce damage. Some GMs are gonna rule that sap master won't work with it.
The feat doesn't care if you did fire or oblivion damage with the attack. All it cares is that it does bludgeoning, which it does. If you are worried about table variation over this then you have a lot of things to worry about.
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Yeah. I just have a home GM that makes me cast vanish before I charge in because the opponent isn't "technically" flatfooted. He's just treated as flatfooted, which is the most anal-retentive explanation I've ever heard.
I use this build with an old man unchained rogue PC of mine. Throw in the Thug archetype, the feats Bludgeoner, Enforcer and Sap Master, the Bleeding Attack rogue talent, and suddenly, your targets are shaken, sickened, bleeding for a lot (double sneak attack dice) and at additional penalties due to the Debilitating Injury unchained rogue class ability. It gets worse (or rather, better) with rogue advanced talents.
I really enjoy running into combat and kicking bad guys in the groin, while cursing them as know-it-all, good-for-nothing whippersnappers. Good times.
Have fun with it!
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This has been my main Pathfinder Society PC for quite some time. I dipped a level into Snakebite Brawler for extra sneak attack and unarmed strike proficiency, then went Snake Style for the free counter-attack whenever they can't hit me due to Offensive Defense. The combo really capstones with your 8th level Scout ability, letting you charge at a target and try to provoke from every enemy touching your charge path, hoping they will try to hit you so you can counter with a sneak attack. Throw in Shatter Defenses and Dazzling Display and you can ensure sneak attacks by using your standard action to Demoralize, then your move action to intentionally provoke attacks of opportunity. Throw in the rogue talent that lets you stand as a free action as long as you provoke, and flavor it so you are intentionally falling over with your force-filled kicks and standing after each kick for additional attack of opportunity provoking.
...Which is all undone if an enemy has reach, is immune to sneak, immune to nonlethal, or decides not to take the attack of opportunity after figuring out what you are doing.
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I also use Scout, Thug, Sap Master, Bludgeoner, Enforcer to very potent effect. Keep in mind this tactic will fail to work as intended against Undead, Constructs, and anything with Uncanny Dodge. You can click on the character to see a multiclassed Cavalier that rides a griffon in PFS version of this build.
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I'm confused on what Archetypes you say your combining. I know of Scout but it looks like your saying that there is a Rogue archetype called Sap Master. I know of the Sap feat chain. But I don't know of any archetype besides Skulking Slayer that works great with Scout and the Sap Master feat. Was I reading your post incorrectly?Sap Master Rogue states that you double the sneak attack dice on a flat footed opponent.
Scout says "whenever a scout makes a charge, her attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target were flat-footed."
So, if you combined the archtypes would this work? While charging could you do double non-lethal damage? The wording is a bit strange so I wanted some clarity.
So far I've left it up to gm discretion but my PC is getting to a level where casting vanish every turn just isn't effective....
Sap Master is a feat that requires enemies to be flat-footed. The Scout archetype makes that a lot easier to achieve.
Yeah. I just have a home GM that makes me cast vanish before I charge in because the opponent isn't "technically" flatfooted. He's just treated as flatfooted, which is the most anal-retentive explanation I've ever heard.
Are you and your GM aware that you being invisible does not make them flat-footed against you? They lose their dex bonus against your attacks (and you can apply SA damage to them because of that), but that is not the same as being flat-footed.
That is, being flat-footed is one way to lose your dex bonus, but it is not the only way, so the converse of lost dex bonus == flat-footed is not true.
As for your original question, it should work. "As if flat-footed" means that for purpose of this attack regarding SA, count the foe as being flat-footed - meaning anything that rides on SA and the specific condition of flat-footed applies. Otherwise they could have just written the ability to state "whenever a scout makes a charge, her attack deals sneak attack damage." and left off those additional 6 words.
Without those last 6 words, the ability becones much stronger. It would arguably bypass uncanny dodge, fortification and type based immunities.
No, it wouldn't. The full text of the scout charge is:
At 4th level, whenever a scout makes a charge, her attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target were flat-footed. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability.
Fortification doesn't care how the SA damage got it applied, it could be flat-footed, denied dex, flanked, scout charge, or any other form of SA damage. The armor simply cares: Was SA triggered, if yes roll chance to negate it.
I will grant you that there may be some rules elements that could change how this worked slightly if those words were removed though. Just not any of the specific ones you listed.
When the rules say something like, "feat x allows you to treat two handed weapon X as if it were a one handed weapon" that applies across the board for all things related to weapon handedness. 1x str and not 1.5x str. Bonuses/or penalties from other things related to weapon handedness, etc. For all intents and purposes that weapon is a one-handed weapon at that point in time with everything that comes with that package. That also means you could TWF with that weapon, use a shield while using that weapon, use spell combat as a magus, etc.
Some examples:
Half-elf/half-orc are not technically full human/elf/orc, but they are treated as if they were.
So when the scout ability says "as if flat-footed", then that counts all things that may benefit (or hinder) due to being flat-footed, in this case the sap master double damage.
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One little niggle there, GM.
The Two Handed weapon in your example doesn't go as far as being able to wield a second Two Handed weapon, no matter how the character wields the first weapon. It also does not allow the wielding of an oversized weapon, which is the next progression for that line of thinking. It counts as One Handed for effects and how the character wields the weapon, allowing for the shield and Spell COmbat, but TWF would need a One Handed or Light weapon in the other hand, not another Two Handed weapon, no matter how it is wielded by the character.
But it is a good parallel to use for an example to the OP subject, as it does count as One Handed for Power Attack (each -1 gives +2 to damage instead of +3), str mod damage (1.0 mod damage) and other factors related to wielding one handed, just as the the target would be, for intents and purposes, flat footed for the Scout for the Sneak attack, thus counting for the abilities that would prevent it as well.
One little niggle there, GM.
The Two Handed weapon in your example doesn't go as far as being able to wield a second Two Handed weapon, no matter how the character wields the first weapon. It also does not allow the wielding of an oversized weapon, which is the next progression for that line of thinking. It counts as One Handed for effects and how the character wields the weapon, allowing for the shield and Spell COmbat, but TWF would need a One Handed or Light weapon in the other hand, not another Two Handed weapon, no matter how it is wielded by the character.
But it is a good parallel to use for an example to the OP subject, as it does count as One Handed for Power Attack (each -1 gives +2 to damage instead of +3), str mod damage (1.0 mod damage) and other factors related to wielding one handed, just as the the target would be, for intents and purposes, flat footed for the Scout for the Sneak attack, thus counting for the abilities that would prevent it as well.
Correct, I'm not saying you could wield two two handed weapons (unless something let you count both as one-handed). But a two-handed counting as one handed, plus any other one-handed equivalent is perfectly legal.
Yeah, most of these combos have been around on these boards for quite some time. Totally legal.
Yes I realize. I've built a very strange rogue/monk build.
Tengu Swordmaster/Scout/Counterfeit Mage Sohei/Monk of Many Styles
The tengu can take a turn to start a tiger stance, then on the next turn get a full pounce attack with two weapons and beak, double no lethal included. It's very gimmicky but very fun to play.
Keep in mind that even with pounce the intention was likely that you only get one attack that counts against flat-footed. You can see this somewhat evidenced by the fact that the next ability went out of it's way to say that if you move more than 10ft but somehow get extra attacks only the first gets sneak attack.
The problem being when the Scout archetype ability was written the only option to get pounce was 10 levels of barbarian so it wasn't expected that the charging rogue would ever be able to make more than 1 attack on a charge.
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Yes I realize. I've built a very strange rogue/monk build.
Tengu Swordmaster/Scout/Counterfeit Mage Sohei/Monk of Many Styles
The tengu can take a turn to start a tiger stance, then on the next turn get a full pounce attack with two weapons and beak, double no lethal included. It's very gimmicky but very fun to play.
Duuuude,
If you are going Master of Many Styles and Scout, what you need are Panther Style Feats! To activate Scout Sneak Attack Damage, you need to move, and Panther Style Feats trigger when you provoke Attacks of Opportunity by moving out of Threatened Squares. You'll be using Unarmed Strikes, so no problem there. Then take Snake Style Feats and/or just Broken Wing Gambit so you get Attacks of Opportunity, too!
Ooh, maybe if you are taking Snake Style Feats, take Hamatula Strike and wear Armor Spikes...
Maybe be a Drunken Master of Many Styles and dip into Alchemist and get either Mutagens or Cognatations...
Cool idea but I don't really have the feats to spare. Next time.
Keep in mind that even with pounce the intention was likely that you only get one attack that counts against flat-footed. You can see this somewhat evidenced by the fact that the next ability went out of it's way to say that if you move more than 10ft but somehow get extra attacks only the first gets sneak attack.
Intended? Maybe. But in Pathfinder, the intend is irrelevant as long as the written version functions and doesn't break the game. The PDT went against explicit writer intend more than once.
The lack of "only applies to the first attack" in Scout's Charge makes it clear that it works on all charge attacks.
Keep in mind that even with pounce the intention was likely that you only get one attack that counts against flat-footed. You can see this somewhat evidenced by the fact that the next ability went out of it's way to say that if you move more than 10ft but somehow get extra attacks only the first gets sneak attack.Intended? Maybe. But in Pathfinder, the intend is irrelevant as long as the written version functions and doesn't break the game. The PDT went against explicit writer intend more than once.
The lack of "only applies to the first attack" in Scout's Charge makes it clear that it works on all charge attacks.
You read it one way, I read it another when I read it with the context of it's other ability.
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Keep in mind that even with pounce the intention was likely that you only get one attack that counts against flat-footed. You can see this somewhat evidenced by the fact that the next ability went out of it's way to say that if you move more than 10ft but somehow get extra attacks only the first gets sneak attack.Intended? Maybe. But in Pathfinder, the intend is irrelevant as long as the written version functions and doesn't break the game. The PDT went against explicit writer intend more than once.
The lack of "only applies to the first attack" in Scout's Charge makes it clear that it works on all charge attacks.
And the lack of "only applies to the first attack" on lance made it so that it works on all attacks in a charge,until the FAQ came out.