Petty Alchemy RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hello folks, here's a homebrew I've made for a popular theme that's traditionally hard to pull off in DnD:
The Poisoner.
It is an archetype for the Rogue, in the style of the Battlemaster Fighter.
If you've looked it over, I would appreciate all feedback (I might polish this, get some art, and put it up as a Pay What You Want), and I'm especially curious on a few points:
1: Is using the Battlemaster level structure for new poisons weird? Fighters get their maneuvers at 7,10,15, so I did the same here. If I went by Rogue archetype levels, they would get more poisons at 9,13,17 instead.
2: Should "Deadly Neurotoxin" be renamed, since it's a reference to a popular game?
Petty Alchemy RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
Aeshuura |
I would bring some of the 'poison' in line with the Battlemaster's abilities.
The first that comes to mind is that I would make 'antidote' more like 'I spent the last year building up a resistance to Iocane powder' and allow the Poisoner to add the poison die result to a save v the poison.
Will comment more later...
Petty Alchemy RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Appreciate it, Aeshuura. Great to have more feedback.
RE: Antidote, it actually works the way you want it to already (if I understand you correctly).
The 100% cure chance is only against the poisons you've made yourself (so if you're blackmailing someone and actually want to spare them, you can hold up your end of the bargain). Otherwise, it's a bonus equal to the poison die.
Perhaps there's a clarity issue in the writing.
SmiloDan RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
It seems like a really fun concept.
A couple issues, though.
Tools of the Trade is kind of confusing. Does the object you are poisoning get a Perception check? Can you choose for the poison to "wait" 12 hours, and then effect the target? And then does it have the poisoned condition for 12 hours?
Do poison dice increase in size at all? Like d10s at 9th and d12s at 13th or 17th?
Neurotoxin is a really good ability; A LOT of monsters are immune to poison. Some are immune to poison AND psychic damage. Maybe make a "poison" that causes acid damage instead of poison?
Some of the names for some of the features are kind of confusing, too. Some are positive attributes, like vigor and wits, and some are negative attributes like clumsy and agony. I understand some of the poisons target positive attributes, like poison attacking a creature's vigor, but it's a little off-putting.
Also, the use of the word poison has a very specific rule definition in 5e D&D. Maybe use the word toxin to describe the various special effects and toxic dice for the d8s the poisoner rolls?
I'm sorry I have a bunch of negative-sounding critiques, but this is a really great concept, and I want it to be as awesome as its potential. Using an analogue of Superiority Dice is genius!
One thing you might consider is having "higher level" toxins that are only available to select at higher levels, like 9th, 13th, and 17th. That way, you can have powers that scale with level and/or power tiers. You could also have abilities that have a bigger effect on a really bad fail save. For example, your target might be poisoned for 1 minute on a failed save, but paralyzed if they failed by 5 or more. A 13th or 17th level power might even petrify on a save failed by 5 or 10!
Petty Alchemy RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks for the feedback, SmiloDan!
I'll try to clarify the Tools of the Trade text. The way it's supposed to work is:
Poisoning a creature? They get a Perception check to catch you.
Poisoning an object? Investigation check will notice the poison.
If you have the poison's effects delayed for 12 hours, then the creature will spend the 12 hours after the trigger suffering the condition of the poison you've chosen if they fail their saving throw (as well as taking the poison dice + SA damage).
I'll think about the names some more too. If you attach "poison" to each, like "vigor poison", it makes sense, but it's good feedback that it's not intuitive.
RE: "Poison", I considered Toxin, though it is a more specific type of poison I think (like venoms are a subset of poisons).
I'd be curious what folks think, do you mind that Toxins are more specific, or is it better than Poisons (which is the name of a damage type)?
RE: Scaling damage, I did not intend to have it (as it takes the place of getting new abilities on the BM Fighter), but I actually got an idea after your critique of Neurotoxin.
At the level of Neurotoxin (which will be renamed to reflect the new ability), the Poisoner gets the option to have his poisons (toxins?) deal either poison damage (at a bigger die), acid damage (at the original die), or psychic damage (at a reduced die). I like using Acid as a damage type, particularly as they're kinda married already by a mystic discipline.
As for Epic Toxins with splashy effects like petrification: I think it's too much to have on a short rest recovery mechanic, but it could be a more fun capstone for the class than Toxic Blood. I'll consider making some capstone poisons, since it might feel like a more natural final ability.
SmiloDan RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
I hope you realize I was complimenting Neurotoxin. One of the big drawbacks to a poison-based attacker in 5e is how prevalent poison immunity is. (For PF, I made a poison-based base class, and it had to have special abilities to overcome poison immunity because entire categories of monsters were immune to poison!) Switching the damage type to psychic damage is a brilliant idea!
And speaking of "brilliant" ideas, how about an option that does the opposite of radiant damage: necrotic damage?
Petty Alchemy RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
Oh certainly, I knew from the concept stage that Neurotoxin was a necessity due to the high poison resist/immunity rate. I meant "critique" as in review, definitely not a bad thing.
Necrotizing poisons make sense, though that resistance more commonly overlaps with poison. Giving the option of 4 damage types might be a little awkward (Rule of Three). Maybe it'll be a special capstone poison. Or perhaps replace acid with necrotic, as it might be a little weird to empty a vial of "poison" to melt manacles.
SmiloDan RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
The Sword |
I would change the name of neurotoxin to something like mind poison or psychic poison. Tons of regular poisons effect the nervous system, so it is odd to call a special ability after something that normal poisons do.
Also, please please please allow toxic blood to be transmitted by a kiss. This class has Lucretia Borgia written all over it (even if that is apocryphal).
I would remove some of the conditions you've placed on the poisoning tools ability - it looks a bit too pathfinder. Any character should be able to poison wine or a well etc without being discovered depending on the circumstances. Attempting to put your own rules on this is effectively stopping non poisoner class characters doing it. Better to frame his as your suggestions on how to manage an attempted poisoning.
Separate out poisoner's kit proficiency from the ability to manufacture poisons quickly and easily which is what the class seems to do, in the same way that a pathfinder alchemist makes extracts.
Lastly I wouldn't leave the onset time open ended. That is extremely powerful. Have a set onset time for poisons as crafted but give the poisoner a separate ability to delay this by a number of hours equal to their level or some such.
Otherwise great idea for an archetype.
Petty Alchemy RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Sword, thank you for your feedback!
Neurotoxins is becoming Expanded Brews (not sure that'll be the final name), and will allow the creation of neurotoxins (psychic damage), corrosive poisons (acid damage), and simply more concentrated poisons (remaining poison damage).
Toxic Blood might bite the dust for some super poisons, but I was unaware of the Lucretia Borgia legend. I think perhaps I'll have a sidebar, and mention that clever poisoners may be able to poison their hands and lips, though they're likely to need the antidote themselves afterwards, and to work with your DM with other clever approaches.
Tools of the Trade isn't meant to say that only the Poisoner can poison objects/people like that, just provide some rules for how they do it. Maybe I'll put in the sidebar that other characters can poison in similar ways, but need more time to pull it off.
The onset time is open ended (up to 24 hours), though I like giving poisoners of all levels the options to "prepare" a target for the next day. I don't think 5e uses exact character level to determine abilities, so I hesitate to go that route.
Aeshuura |
Appreciate it, Aeshuura. Great to have more feedback.
RE: Antidote, it actually works the way you want it to already (if I understand you correctly).
** spoiler omitted **
The 100% cure chance is only against the poisons you've made yourself (so if you're blackmailing someone and actually want to spare them, you can hold up your end of the bargain). Otherwise, it's a bonus equal to the poison die.
Perhaps there's a clarity issue in the writing.
What I meant is that if you follow the model of the Battlemaster, I would not give it a duration and instead make it a reaction when you take poison damage. I would consider adding to the Con save and possibly reducing the poison damage. (Antitoxin is already available and grants you advantage for an hour, I would beware of stacking these effects.)
Aeshuura |
The Sword, thank you for your feedback!
Neurotoxins is becoming Expanded Brews (not sure that'll be the final name), and will allow the creation of neurotoxins (psychic damage), corrosive poisons (acid damage), and simply more concentrated poisons (remaining poison damage).
How about hallucinogens for psychic damage rather than neurotoxins? Neurotoxins affect the nervous system rather than mental damage (as the brain is only part of the nervous system) and usually they cause interference in the autonomic processes. I think your previous mention of necrotic damage fits the neurotoxin better.
SmiloDan RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Petty Alchemy RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |