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Dm who is completely disregarding the rules. How to deal with them?


Advice

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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I mean, if we're using 3.5 rules for stuff instead of Pathfinder rules, is there even an agreed-upon set of rules as a framework for the game? If it really is just a "found some rules somewhere, let's use those" I don't know how you can really disregard "the rules."

Long story short, PCs should probably not be allowed to base their gimmick around something fairly abusive. If you come up with something clever that uses loopholes or rules interactions to let you do something really powerful, expect to be able to use it once but don't expect to be able to use it twice. Once is funny and interesting, twice is "are we playing a cooperative storytelling game or 'the you show starring you'?"

From the story in the OP this didn't go very well, but when you're playing something so powerful that it's making the game less fun for other players (including the GM) you should agree to play something else. Realistically the problem I see is that the GM didn't bother to ask you to make a new character or rebuild the one you've got. "The GM kills your character and there's nothing you can do about it" is not actually against the rules per se, it's just almost certainly poor form.

The problem i have was that from the get go i explicitly told him how powerful the shadow creature template from 3.5 was, and that it would make my character unbalanced, he said he knew this and said it was ok i could make my character with the template, not to once again point this out i was the Dvati race from the dragon compendium, 2 people 1 soul, and count as 1 character, they get 1 spell action per turn between them, but each get their own attack action and move action. get a better flanking bonus and aid another bonus, split hp between but not con bonus.

If he had just asked me to create another character i would have or ever rebuilt this character, but he didn't and when i found a way out of the cells i was in.

It is not that he weakend the ability, it is the fat he never notified me he was doing it, and got all pissy when i used my plan shift ability to get out of the sell, saying that i landed in an area of the plan of shadow where i was surrounded by creatures and killed on sight, he didnt even let me to try and shadow blend, if i can't shadow blend on the plan of shadow then were can i shadow blend.

Also at this point i had the Darkstalker feat, When you hide, creatures with blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense must make a Listen check or a Spot check (whichever DC is higher) to notice you, just as sighted creatures would make Spot checks to detect you. You cannot hide in plain sight unless you have that ability as a class feature. In addition, you can flank creatures that have the all-around vision special quality.


Were you on the Plane of Shadow in total darkness?

There's no shadows in total darkness. You need light to create shadows.


JDLPF wrote:

Were you on the Plane of Shadow in total darkness?

There's no shadows in total darkness. You need light to create shadows.

The ability just says In any conditions other than full daylight, a shadow creature can disappear into the shadows, giving it total concealment. Artificial illumination, even a light or continual flame spell, does not negate this ability, but a daylight spell will.

but the plane of shadow is a shadowy version on the prime material plane, darker version, but not total darkness, but that wouldn't matter anyways the shadow blend ability the ways it is worded would have worked anyways.

Here is a description from the forgotten realms wikia,The most striking and immediate impression a visitor to the Plane of Shadow experienced was the lack of color and light; no sun, moon, or stars adorned the vault of the inky black sky, and all things looked as if the color had leeched out, leaving nothing but black and white, which in the dimness were more like "dark black" and "light black".


wintersrage wrote:
When you hide, creatures with blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense must make a Listen check or a Spot check (whichever DC is higher) to notice you

There are no Spot or Listen checks in Pathfinder. Your GM was dumb for allowing all this 3.5 nonsense.

He was OK with you being powerful, but maybe he failed to notice the difference between being combat-powerful and narratively-powerful. He seems to be a railroader who thinks he can lock up the party and not have them escape. In order to be able to control the story once again he decided to nerf/kill your PC (instead of discussing the problem like an adult).

You can probably prevent this happening again by making a 'normal' PC that is good at fighting but not much else. However, your GM will remain dumb.


You guys realize shadow blend is basically greater invisibility, both give total concealment, and both allow you hide when you would otherwise not be able to. Only difference is that shadow blend requires shadows but greater invisibility does not.


wintersrage wrote:
You guys realize shadow blend is basically greater invisibility, both give total concealment, and both allow you hide when you would otherwise not be able to. Only difference is that shadow blend requires shadows but greater invisibility does not.

Greater invisibility is also like a 4th level spell... that shadows have permanent from the first session (If i'm reading it right...)

That is REALLY powerful. Especially on a rogue. More to the point, you KNOW it is powerful. You specifically cited times when you warned how powerful it was, and the DM thought it was manageable.

There seems to be a perfect storm of badness going on here. Too much rule bending, too much 3rd party power, basically too much game breaking. I really can't fault a DM for wanting to backtrack after he made a horrible decision just to keep the game from imploding and collapsing... but he did handle it in the wrong way. There should have been some character rebuilding/respecing allowed and mature conversation about how and why the powers were breaking the game... but either way the Shadow blending had to go.


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I had this issue before. A GM allowing stuff that he cannot manage and then punishing players for having it.

This is not the way, because he allowed it in the first time and the PCs are going to feel disappointed.

If I was this GM I'd have a talk to my players and tell them that I messed up badly by allowing some stuff, set new rules for what it's allowed and what is not and allow the players to choose to recreate their previous characters with the new rules or build new ones. But if he has an issue with balancing the power level, he should probably stick to PF and non 3pp stuff, because there are many unbalancing 3.5 and 3pp options.

Sometimes you allow something because it seems cool but it ends being too powerful. That's OK, everybody can make a mistake. But punishing the player doesn't seem fair and it causes resentment. So it's better to find other options.


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What I gather from this thread is the player wants to mix rules getting really powerful combinations of abilities (the fact he "warned" the GM is of no consequence, really), the GM thought he and the party could handle something they could not so he changed his mind.
Seems like a pretty standard situation, probably what the player wants from the game and what the GM and the rest of the party want are different things.
Given this "set up" the best thing to do for the player is either change his expectations or leave the game and try to find a different group with similar expectations as his own.

P.S.

It doesn't help we only heard the player's version of this.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Class Deck, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Legends Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

You say he's disregarding the rules, I'd be willing to bet he'd say the same about you - there's not a right or wrong here, in my view, you've collectively bent the rules system out of shape (would you even say it's 3.5 or pathfinder?) and it's gone places where the rules in the books didn't really anticipate. How that resolves is as much subjective interpretation as objective parsing of text.

I think if you go all whacko with rules options it's essential the DM and the players are able to work well together. You two don't seem to be able to work well together (in this regard - it sounds to me that you both have different ideas of what a "reasonable" power level is how the DM should deal with overpowered things) so I wouldn't go all whacko with options in his games. I doubt you'd have this issue if you played something simpler.

EDIT: If you do have this issue with a simple build then I think that's a different thing altogether.


Imbicatus wrote:
Well, I wouldn't have allowed it in the first place, but I would have been up front about why I wasn't going to allow it.

This

As for dealing with a GM throwing around the "Hand of God" like that, I've not been willing to tolerate that kind of behavior for decades. It is something I would expect from a 14 or 15 year old running a game for the first time. (Which may well be the case. We were all teenagers once.)


From everything I'm reading here is a player trying to justify his and another character both knowing they are bending and or breaking the rules. The GM is either inexperienced young or even just plain stupid. I asked earlier how is it a character has a racial only feat from an unplayable race at that not being that race? The feat is clearly powerful almost too powerful to allow even if you were that race.
My earlier suggest stands restart the campaign using Pazio official Pathfinder material only. Shelf everything else. Hell use only the Corebook to start. I'm reading several issues that I think might be solved by going back to basics. Talk out of game since I think there are other problems as well as the mixing of 3.5 with pathfinder.
Another suggestion is use modules and adventure paths for the time being as well. Home brewed campaigns require an extra amount of work that might at this time be too much. It took me years to be able to run a home brew campaign without major issues.


Steve Geddes wrote:

You say he's disregarding the rules, I'd be willing to bet he'd say the same about you - there's not a right or wrong here, in my view, you've collectively bent the rules system out of shape (would you even say it's 3.5 or pathfinder?) and it's gone places where the rules in the books didn't really anticipate. How that resolves is as much subjective interpretation as objective parsing of text.

I think if you go all whacko with rules options it's essential the DM and the players are able to work well together. You two don't seem to be able to work well together (in this regard - it sounds to me that you both have different ideas of what a "reasonable" power level is how the DM should deal with overpowered things) so I wouldn't go all whacko with options in his games. I doubt you'd have this issue if you played something simpler.

EDIT: If you do have this issue with a simple build then I think that's a different thing altogether.

In regards to him saying the same thing about me disregarding the rules, he might, but i had to remind him of the rules a lot as he was just downright not using them. he was allowing spell casters without the quicken metamagic feat to cast quickened spells, another person getting 2 attacks on a charge because the person is dual weilding, saying that dark vision can see people with total concealment because of the shadow blend ability.

I was trying to play my character within the rules he allowed.

It is not the fact he didn't like the ability, it is the fact he acted like a child throwing a tantrum when what he allowed he could not and did not want to handle, after the fact. I already had another character built, it was a Goliath fighter, specializing in tripping, using the spiked chain from 3.5 as i didn't see the need for pathfinder to remove the reach quality from it.

All i got from him was that i like to build game breaking character, can you tell me how a Goliath specializing in tripping using a large spiked chain is game breaking, ok i was planing on building this character with 3 levels of aberrant bloodline sorcerer for the +5 feat of reach, giving me a total of 20ft reach with the spiked chain from 3.5, this spiked chain also allows for being able to hit people at no penalty from 5-15 ft as well.. and that if the character got to out of control he would kill him off again.

It is like he is punishing a player for being clever and using feats and weapons to the best of their ability

I am never going to play with him again, i may in a play group where he is if someone else dm's, not with him as a DM.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I just have to say that every time I glance over this title, I read it as "Dr. who." Every single time.


Derek Dalton wrote:

From everything I'm reading here is a player trying to justify his and another character both knowing they are bending and or breaking the rules. The GM is either inexperienced young or even just plain stupid. I asked earlier how is it a character has a racial only feat from an unplayable race at that not being that race? The feat is clearly powerful almost too powerful to allow even if you were that race.

My earlier suggest stands restart the campaign using Pazio official Pathfinder material only. Shelf everything else. Hell use only the Corebook to start. I'm reading several issues that I think might be solved by going back to basics. Talk out of game since I think there are other problems as well as the mixing of 3.5 with pathfinder.
Another suggestion is use modules and adventure paths for the time being as well. Home brewed campaigns require an extra amount of work that might at this time be too much. It took me years to be able to run a home brew campaign without major issues.

Derek the player in question was killing people and animals behind our back to power a ritual that was turning him into Fey'ri from forgotten realms.

Fay'Ri:

Fey'ri have the following racial traits:

+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Constitution. Fey'ri are quick and smart, but their inbreeding makes them weak.
Medium-size.
Fey'ri land speed is 30 feet. When in their winged form, they may fly at a speed of 40 feet with a maneuverability rating of Poor.
Darkvision up to 60 feet.
Low-light vision: Fey'ri can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar cnditions of poor illumination. They retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
Immunity to magic sleep spells and effects.
+2 racial bonus on Will saves against enchantment spells and effects.
Alter self (Sp): Fey'ri can use alter self at will to assume any humanoid form, and can remain in that form indefinitely.
+2 racial bonus on Bluff, Hide, Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
Elven Blood: For all abilities and effects, a fey'ri is considered an elf. Fey'ri, for example, can use or create elven weapons and magic items with racially specific elven powers as if they were elves.
Outsider: Fey'ri are native outsiders.
Demonic Abilities: Every fey'ri has four special abilities drawn from the following list: charm person (Sp) 1/day, clairaudience/clairvoyance (Sp) 1/day, damage reduction 10/+1*, darkness (Sp) 1/day, detect thoughts (Sp) 1/day, dimension door* (Sp) 1/day,enervation* (Sp) 1/day, fire resistance 10, suggestion (Sp) 1/day, +2 racial bonus on saves against electricity, or +2 racial bonus on saves against poison. Fey'ri spell-like abilities use the fey'ri's character level for the effect. the DC is Charisma-based. A fey'ri can only have one ability from the list that is marked with an asterisk (*), and any fey'ri with one of these three abilities has a higher level adjustment that a fey'ri without one.
Level Adjustment: +2. Fey'ri are slightly more powerful and gain levels more slowly than the common races of Faerun. This is because the elders of House Dlardrageth bred for immediate power at the expense of long-term ability. Fey'ri with damage reduction or the dimension door or enervation spell-like abilities have a level adjustment of +3 instead of +2.

This player after starting the game as just a plain elf wanted to gain the racial traits of the Fay'Ri after he read about them. So he resorted to murder and debauchery in game to power a ritual that was slowing turning him into a Fay'Ri, but the ritual had to be don'e over and over again, i think the total number of times needed was 8 times to complete the transformation.


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Dr. Who is often disregarding the rules. But I wouldn't mess with him as he always finds a way to be victorious.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
wintersrage wrote:


Derek the player in question was killing people and animals behind our back to power a ritual that was turning him into Fey'ri from forgotten realms.

Go to the police. He's a psycho. Wait... I guess you meant his character was doing it, not the player.


Another example of poor GMing. You still haven't my question of how you got a racial feat for not being that race. My advice still stands. Scrap the campaign go pathfinder only. The fact the GM is allowing everything to happen shows his lack of experience and or courage to say no. The player in question knows this and is still doing this shows him a jerk.
I had a GM who used Pathfinder rules but used Forgotten Realms setting and it worked well. She was experienced but she also asked ahead of time not to screw with her or the campaign and we didn't.
I'm sensing the campaign is more about the players versus the GM which never ever ends well. It shows poor players and GM when it starts and goes on like that. It's one thing to have a cool or powerful or both character. It's another when you know it bends or breaks the rules and the GM doesn't know or care. That is a recipe for problems.


Derek Dalton wrote:

Another example of poor GMing. You still haven't my question of how you got a racial feat for not being that race. My advice still stands. Scrap the campaign go pathfinder only. The fact the GM is allowing everything to happen shows his lack of experience and or courage to say no. The player in question knows this and is still doing this shows him a jerk.

I had a GM who used Pathfinder rules but used Forgotten Realms setting and it worked well. She was experienced but she also asked ahead of time not to screw with her or the campaign and we didn't.
I'm sensing the campaign is more about the players versus the GM which never ever ends well. It shows poor players and GM when it starts and goes on like that. It's one thing to have a cool or powerful or both character. It's another when you know it bends or breaks the rules and the GM doesn't know or care. That is a recipe for problems.

What racial feat are you talking about?


You keep mentioning Dark Stalker feat Dark Stalkers are a race. The feat allowing you to be invisible to other senses.


Derek Dalton wrote:
You keep mentioning Dark Stalker feat Dark Stalkers are a race. The feat allowing you to be invisible to other senses.

Darkstalker is a feat from 3.5

Darkstalker:

Darkstalker
Type: General
Source: Lords of Madness

You have learned how to stalk and surprise creatures whose senses are very different from those of a humanoid.
Benefit: When you hide, creatures with blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense must make a Listen check or a Spot check (whichever DC is higher) to notice you, just as sighted creatures would make Spot checks to detect you. You cannot hide in plain sight unless you have that ability as a class feature. In addition, you can flank creatures that have the all-around vision special quality.
Normal: Creatures with these senses do not need to make Spot or listen checks to notice other creatures within range. Creatures with all-around vision can't be flanked.

Yes i know it says listen and spot but that can easily be changed to perception, and we did.


wintersrage wrote:
Daw wrote:
Dont
You mean just stop playing?

It sounds mean and blunt, but replacing him sounds like the best option. Someone who deals with issues like this just shows inability to deal with stressful situations and each time players get creative, he will punish them.


Again the problem is the GM is allowing in 3.5 stuff into Pathfinder. Pathfinder is lower powered then 3.5. It's like taking a knife to a gunfight. The guy with the knife is going to lose every time. He isn't researching what the players are doing or the players are doing things without telling him. They shouldn't do that. It's a game and games have rules and a referee. In this case your GM is blind deaf and dumb regarding almost everything going on.
I in a couple of my Pathfinder campaigns have allowed 3.5 stuff when a player asks. He's told me upfront what he wants and why. We both review it deciding if it will unbalance the campaign. Most times it doesn't but if it did we usually both agree, like adults it is too powerful and remove it. The difference between me and your GM is I talk to my players and they talk to me. They don't go around murdering people and animals in secret to gain more power. I know why they are doing this. If they don't tell me I ask. That should have been a warning sign to your GM when he first started especially if his character alignment was neutral or good.
It sounds like your group and GM are young. Maybe mid twenties. Me I'm older I have been playing in about two other systems besides D&D for years. Being a GM isn't a picnic me. If done with a good group it can be rewarding but not only are their bad players but there are bad GMs. Some people are not meant to be GMs.


I have to say something about DM's and players, i dont understand the reasons that some players have for saying what a dm says go even if it is blantely making the game less fun for 1 player as he/she is venting her frustration towards that player in game.

My look at this is DM's have to be understanding of a player and their role in the game world and, they can't just do things that make no sense story wise or punish someone for their in ability to handle an in game issue.

DM's and players are all at the same table and they should talk things out if there is a problem.

If a player has to keep on siting rules to keep a DM on track, that dm is not and should not DM any more until they learn the rules or at least tell the players of the House rules they are using.

Matthew Mercer and a few other professional DM,s as well as Chris Perkins say that if a DM can't listen to their players, especially if the players need to ask a question or a reason to why things happen, then they are bad DM's.


Derek Dalton wrote:

Again the problem is the GM is allowing in 3.5 stuff into Pathfinder. Pathfinder is lower powered then 3.5. It's like taking a knife to a gunfight. The guy with the knife is going to lose every time. He isn't researching what the players are doing or the players are doing things without telling him. They shouldn't do that. It's a game and games have rules and a referee. In this case your GM is blind deaf and dumb regarding almost everything going on.

I in a couple of my Pathfinder campaigns have allowed 3.5 stuff when a player asks. He's told me upfront what he wants and why. We both review it deciding if it will unbalance the campaign. Most times it doesn't but if it did we usually both agree, like adults it is too powerful and remove it. The difference between me and your GM is I talk to my players and they talk to me. They don't go around murdering people and animals in secret to gain more power. I know why they are doing this. If they don't tell me I ask. That should have been a warning sign to your GM when he first started especially if his character alignment was neutral or good.
It sounds like your group and GM are young. Maybe mid twenties. Me I'm older I have been playing in about two other systems besides D&D for years. Being a GM isn't a picnic me. If done with a good group it can be rewarding but not only are their bad players but there are bad GMs. Some people are not meant to be GMs.

I am not sure about the rest of them, but I am 36, the DM looks like he is at most 20-25, the rest of them I am not sure.

I have plaed, all editions of dungeons and dragons, vampire, mage, warewolf, most of the palladium system, earthdawn, warhammer fantasy RPG, and many more.

I know the nuances of the game and i know how to best use them to get the most out of them. If that makes me a bad player then so be it, but it is the way i like to play my characters. I don't like generalizing a character build, i like to focus it like a razors edge, if that makes it so what i have chosen to focus on is to powerful, then it is up to DM to find a way around it, by putting in stuff immune to what my character is doing.

Like a trip build character, where with the right feats, items and spells can easily get into the high 20's or low to mid 30's depending on his stat bonus for trips, but he is not very good at much else, he will be able to trip during AoO and the like.


Corvo Spiritwind wrote:
wintersrage wrote:
Daw wrote:
Dont
You mean just stop playing?
It sounds mean and blunt, but replacing him sounds like the best option. Someone who deals with issues like this just shows inability to deal with stressful situations and each time players get creative, he will punish them.

I agree with you, but when i have offered to dm something else they didn't want to, they wanted to finish this campaign first.


Derek Dalton wrote:

Again the problem is the GM is allowing in 3.5 stuff into Pathfinder. Pathfinder is lower powered then 3.5. It's like taking a knife to a gunfight. The guy with the knife is going to lose every time. He isn't researching what the players are doing or the players are doing things without telling him. They shouldn't do that. It's a game and games have rules and a referee. In this case your GM is blind deaf and dumb regarding almost everything going on.

I in a couple of my Pathfinder campaigns have allowed 3.5 stuff when a player asks. He's told me upfront what he wants and why. We both review it deciding if it will unbalance the campaign. Most times it doesn't but if it did we usually both agree, like adults it is too powerful and remove it. The difference between me and your GM is I talk to my players and they talk to me. They don't go around murdering people and animals in secret to gain more power. I know why they are doing this. If they don't tell me I ask. That should have been a warning sign to your GM when he first started especially if his character alignment was neutral or good.
It sounds like your group and GM are young. Maybe mid twenties. Me I'm older I have been playing in about two other systems besides D&D for years. Being a GM isn't a picnic me. If done with a good group it can be rewarding but not only are their bad players but there are bad GMs. Some people are not meant to be GMs.

Do you think the darkstalker feat is to powerful to be brought into pathfinder?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber Subscriber

I would recommend going vanilla.

Stop the templates and the variant races. They are fun sometimes, but it looks like your group isn't working properly as a result.

The GM made some bad calls and the players made some bad decisions.

Step back, take a breath, and come back to the table with a more solid suite of characters and a better grasp on the rules.


Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
wintersrage wrote:
Corvo Spiritwind wrote:
wintersrage wrote:
Daw wrote:
Dont
You mean just stop playing?
It sounds mean and blunt, but replacing him sounds like the best option. Someone who deals with issues like this just shows inability to deal with stressful situations and each time players get creative, he will punish them.
I agree with you, but when i have offered to dm something else they didn't want to, they wanted to finish this campaign first.

If other folks are having fun, then dropping is going to be your best option, yeah.


Yakman wrote:

I would recommend going vanilla.

Stop the templates and the variant races. They are fun sometimes, but it looks like your group isn't working properly as a result.

The GM made some bad calls and the players made some bad decisions.

Step back, take a breath, and come back to the table with a more solid suite of characters and a better grasp on the rules.

The only reason i asked about the shadow creature template was that i was born in the shadowfell close to where it is coterminous to the prime material plane. Two i never though he would say yes.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Class Deck Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
wintersrage wrote:
Do you think the darkstalker feat is to powerful to be brought into pathfinder?

Nope. We already have the Dampen Presence rogue talent.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber Subscriber
wintersrage wrote:
Yakman wrote:

I would recommend going vanilla.

Stop the templates and the variant races. They are fun sometimes, but it looks like your group isn't working properly as a result.

The GM made some bad calls and the players made some bad decisions.

Step back, take a breath, and come back to the table with a more solid suite of characters and a better grasp on the rules.

The only reason i asked about the shadow creature template was that i was born in the shadowfell close to where it is coterminous to the prime material plane. Two i never though he would say yes.

Yeah, I get it.

But here's the thing - it doesn't work for him, and it doesn't work for the group.

He didn't realize this at the time, and when you add in all the other problems you've detailed - including other players with weirdo characters - it just seems that mistakes were made by multiple people at the table.

So, yeah, the group should acknowledge joint responsibility. the GM didn't realize that there were problems coming down the road, and it also seems he should brush up on his rules. Players should make an effort to have characters that obey the rules of character creation, AND help out a GM who seems like he's trying, but needs some help with the finer points of not only character creation, but rules during play.

As part of the solution, I would recommend stripping down the page count of what's allowable at the table. I wouldn't say "ARGH! I'M DONE WITH YOU FOOLS!" because then the game ends, and that's not fun for anyone.

There are constructive solutions here, where everyone comes out ahead.


I said this in my last post there are some bad GMs who never should be one. I have had a couple and regret knowing them. Now I have had the pleasure of three great GMs over the years all three were friends out of game as well. Being a GM is hard especially when you have problem players or several. A good GM attempts to manage those problem players as best as he can. I have had players so problematic they actually end a game and in two cases a campaign. In one case even after I explained why I broke a rule he still refused to let the matter rest. What was worse was the rest of the party once they knew why I did what I did said okay no problem we get it.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I am about to offer some truly horrible advice. But it's possibly the best advice as well.

Spoiler:
Run. No, not the game, the GM is pretty certain they want to do their thing and the more contorted both sides become, the more polarized they become. Run. Away. As a person who *has* played in these sorts of games, they have *never* ended well, and the amount of time I've lost in my life in transportation to and from such, plus the amount of money I've spent on books to find 'the nifty thing' plus the mental stress...

Just run. Run so far away.

It's hard, I know. I've been there. It's the only game in town, the only group of gamers in the area that play.

Keep running away.

To quote a certain smuggler... 'No amount of reward is worth this'.

No matter what choice you make, be safe, careful, and may you find what you are looking for.


Yakman wrote:
wintersrage wrote:
Yakman wrote:

I would recommend going vanilla.

Stop the templates and the variant races. They are fun sometimes, but it looks like your group isn't working properly as a result.

The GM made some bad calls and the players made some bad decisions.

Step back, take a breath, and come back to the table with a more solid suite of characters and a better grasp on the rules.

The only reason i asked about the shadow creature template was that i was born in the shadowfell close to where it is coterminous to the prime material plane. Two i never though he would say yes.

Yeah, I get it.

But here's the thing - it doesn't work for him, and it doesn't work for the group.

He didn't realize this at the time, and when you add in all the other problems you've detailed - including other players with weirdo characters - it just seems that mistakes were made by multiple people at the table.

So, yeah, the group should acknowledge joint responsibility. the GM didn't realize that there were problems coming down the road, and it also seems he should brush up on his rules. Players should make an effort to have characters that obey the rules of character creation, AND help out a GM who seems like he's trying, but needs some help with the finer points of not only character creation, but rules during play.

As part of the solution, I would recommend stripping down the page count of what's allowable at the table. I wouldn't say "ARGH! I'M DONE WITH YOU FOOLS!" because then the game ends, and that's not fun for anyone.

There are constructive solutions here, where everyone comes out ahead.

There is nothing in the rules that says templates can not be taken by player characters.

If there is can you show where the rule is located.

And when i make my character i try and make them within the rules unless, i did not know something couldn't be done either do to a poorly worded feat, ability or rule.

Once i find out i will then change what is wrong and play from there, but as far as i can tell there is no rule that says you can't play a character with a template.

Grand Lodge

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It doesn't matter what the rules say. If the GM doesn't like it, no rules will help.


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I think honestly the only way things like this get fixed is if everybody sits down and has a frank and honest discussion about "what they want and expect out of the game" and come to some kind of mutually acceptable agreement.

Since it seems like a lot of the issue here is that we're not clear on what everybody else wants out of the game, and possibly one player's desire for "absolute power" is running into somebody else's desire for "drama and challenge."

This seems like a good time to pause the game and talk about what's going wrong here, preferably after some time for everybody to cool down.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
It doesn't matter what the rules say. If the GM doesn't like it, no rules will help.

I understand that, but he did allow it then go prissy, because the enemies couldn't find my character to try and kill him, and they where (playing Dvati race from dragon compendium} sneak attacking them when ever they wanted, i was also planing on becoming an assassin as well.

Grand Lodge

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wintersrage wrote:
I understand that, but...

No buts. No matter how wrong the GM may be, it won't matter. You will not win the argument.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
It doesn't matter what the rules say. If the GM doesn't like it, no rules will help.

To expand on this- What we have here is a people problem, and you don't solve people problems by an appeal to the rules. You solve people problems with talking about it like reasonable, mature people.

The forums aren't going to give you a cudgel to wield against your GM in a forthcoming argument, since that's not going to help even if you are in the right. The way one solves people problems sort of depends on "who the people involved are and what they're like" and it's likely nobody here knows this GM.


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wintersrage wrote:
Yakman wrote:
wintersrage wrote:
Yakman wrote:

I would recommend going vanilla.

Stop the templates and the variant races. They are fun sometimes, but it looks like your group isn't working properly as a result.

The GM made some bad calls and the players made some bad decisions.

Step back, take a breath, and come back to the table with a more solid suite of characters and a better grasp on the rules.

The only reason i asked about the shadow creature template was that i was born in the shadowfell close to where it is coterminous to the prime material plane. Two i never though he would say yes.

Yeah, I get it.

But here's the thing - it doesn't work for him, and it doesn't work for the group.

He didn't realize this at the time, and when you add in all the other problems you've detailed - including other players with weirdo characters - it just seems that mistakes were made by multiple people at the table.

So, yeah, the group should acknowledge joint responsibility. the GM didn't realize that there were problems coming down the road, and it also seems he should brush up on his rules. Players should make an effort to have characters that obey the rules of character creation, AND help out a GM who seems like he's trying, but needs some help with the finer points of not only character creation, but rules during play.

As part of the solution, I would recommend stripping down the page count of what's allowable at the table. I wouldn't say "ARGH! I'M DONE WITH YOU FOOLS!" because then the game ends, and that's not fun for anyone.

There are constructive solutions here, where everyone comes out ahead.

There is nothing in the rules that says templates can not be taken by player characters.

If there is can you show where the rule is located.

And when i make my character i try and make them within the rules unless, i did not know something couldn't be done either do to a poorly worded feat, ability or rule.

Once i find out i will then change what is...

This is from the PRD:

Templates
A template is a set of rules that you apply to a monster to transform it into a different monster. It gives precise directions on how to change the original monster's statistics to transform it into the new monster.

Acquired Templates: This kind of template is added to a creature well after its birth or creation.

Inherited Templates: This kind of template is part of a creature from the beginning of its existence. Creatures are born or created with these templates already in place, and have never known life without them.

It's clearly intended to be used to handle MONSTERS. Not PCs.

Sorry, but you were in the wrong. You could have found this like I did in just a few seconds (so could your DM) but you didn't. OK. Fine. Now you know.

So... it's time to admit mistakes were made and figure out solutions.


wintersrage wrote:
There is nothing in the rules that says templates can not be taken by player characters.

There's nothing in the rules saying you can't award yourself a million experience points, but Pathfinder game balance is based around characters of standard races, classes, levels, equipment, etc. Anything beyond that requires careful consideration by the GM. Otherwise players could just say, "I'm taking the Dread Wraith Sovereign template, I gain Dex +20, Int +6, Wis +8, Cha +14 and I'm immune to non-magic weapons and I can walk through walls and anything I kill with my Con-drain touch must serve me for eternity."


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wintersrage wrote:

There is nothing in the rules that says templates can not be taken by player characters.

If there is can you show where the rule is located.

Templates can only be taken by PCs with GM approval. In this case, the GM gave approval, so everything was fine. However, it is also the GM's prerogative to realize that something is unbalancing the game and address it. Ideally this will be done via approaching the player and having a discussion, perhaps offering the ability to rebuild the character without the problematic option(s) or bringing in a different character at the same level.

"A template is a set of rules that you apply to a monster to transform it into a different monster. It gives precise directions on how to change the original monster's statistics to transform it into the new monster."

Note the word monster, not player character. These templates are found in the Bestiary, which is not a book normally open for PCs.

Furthermore, when generating a character, nowhere does it tell you to pick templates. You do not need to look for a rule saying you can't pick templates, you need to look for a rule saying that you can pick them. Nowhere does such a rule exist.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think honestly the only way things like this get fixed is if everybody sits down and has a frank and honest discussion about "what they want and expect out of the game" and come to some kind of mutually acceptable agreement.

Since it seems like a lot of the issue here is that we're not clear on what everybody else wants out of the game, and possibly one player's desire for "absolute power" is running into somebody else's desire for "drama and challenge."

This seems like a good time to pause the game and talk about what's going wrong here, preferably after some time for everybody to cool down.

Even though the enemies would not have has their dex and dodge bonus's against attacks from my character, my +14 to hit didn't seam to be enough to hit enemies a lot of the time.

I was able to get +16 from, +4 from race for flanking with my twin, + 2 for improved flanking feat, +6 from class, Vexing Flanker feat for another +2 and a +2 weapon.

So its not like i was able to pump out huge amounts of damage as a lot of my attacks missed.


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Not playing in his game seems like the right thing. Personally, I'd avoid the concept that he's "ignoring the rules" when you're pretty obviously playing a heavily but casually homebrewed mishmash of PF and 3.5. It's hard to articulate what "the rules" even are, I suspect.

I think it's more useful to think of the situation as that you just don't like his game (though the other players do). Which is fine - there's lots of different ways to play RPGs and it's good to understand what you like and whether that's compatible with the rest of the group.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
It doesn't matter what the rules say. If the GM doesn't like it, no rules will help.

Isn't the issue that GM said "Yes" when asked, without looking up what he's asked about, and when s&!% hits the fan instead of saying "No, this was a mistake." he throws a GM tantrum, killing off characters when what's needed is a group discussion?

From what I glanced, it was all cool until it wasn't. Nothing was said to not be allowed or be op, it was just deal with in the worst way possible.

Grand Lodge

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Corvo Spiritwind wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
It doesn't matter what the rules say. If the GM doesn't like it, no rules will help.

Isn't the issue that GM said "Yes" when asked, without looking up what he's asked about, and when s%&% hits the fan instead of saying "No, this was a mistake." he throws a GM tantrum, killing off characters when what's needed is a group discussion?

From what I glanced, it was all cool until it wasn't. Nothing was said to not be allowed or be op, it was just deal with in the worst way possible.

From what I've read in this thread, no one involved in this game is right.

Everyone is wrong and they should stop and get this thing back on the solid footing.

-Skeld


Skeld wrote:
Corvo Spiritwind wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
It doesn't matter what the rules say. If the GM doesn't like it, no rules will help.

Isn't the issue that GM said "Yes" when asked, without looking up what he's asked about, and when s%&% hits the fan instead of saying "No, this was a mistake." he throws a GM tantrum, killing off characters when what's needed is a group discussion?

From what I glanced, it was all cool until it wasn't. Nothing was said to not be allowed or be op, it was just deal with in the worst way possible.

From what I've read in this thread, no one involved in this game is right.

Everyone is wrong and they should stop and get this thing back on the solid footing.

-Skeld

I'm just not going to play in the game anymore as long as he IS DM. He doesn't know the rules well enough to dm or he is letting people he likes more dowhat they want.


Skeld wrote:

From what I've read in this thread, no one involved in this game is right.

Everyone is wrong and they should stop and get this thing back on the solid footing.

-Skeld

What a mess


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Scrap the current campaign.
Start fresh with just Pathfinder Core rules.
Help the GM learn.


Spacelard is saying what I have said a couple of times in this post. It' obvious your GM is inexperienced. it sounds like you have experience so here's another idea, have you run something all new all pathfinder with him helping you. Run modules or something with him studying them and the rules until everyone feels comfortable enough to let him try again as GM.

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