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Headband Question


Rules Questions


On the Headband of Vast Intelligence. It says to treat the +2 intelligence bonus as a temporary bonus for the first 24 hours. Does this mean after 24 hours I can remove the headband and still have the +2 bonus?


No. It just means that after 24h that bonus is considered permanent for things such as qualifying for feats and other such minutae. You still need to wear the thing.


It's essentially worded this way to prevent you having a backpack full of +2 headbands of intelligence for every skill and swapping them on demand. You only gain skill ranks if you wear it for 24 hours, and removing it causes you to lose the ranks it provided. You gain the bonus Intelligence immediately upon wearing it, and lose it immediately upon removing it.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

No

That is the insight bonus tomes/manuals.

It just means that it ceases to be a temp bonus while worn.


Temp bonuses aren't factored in to things like the magus arcane pool (int + stuff). Permanent bonuses are so if your int is 16, you have 3+ points. Put on the headband and still have 3+, but then the next day it refreshes to 4+.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What kinds of things ARE effected by temporary ability bonuses?

Seems to me like that would be a much shorter list.


(Edited thanks to FW's post below.)

Things that aren't affected by temporary ability bonuses:
Quantity of daily resources (spells per day, and other class-specific things like number of rounds of rage)
Skill ranks
Languages known

Things that are affected by temporary ability bonuses:
Current and maximum HP (you lose these when the effect wears off)
Save DCs for spells and abilities
Saving throws
Armor Class
Attack and damage bonuses
Initiative
CMB & CMD
Carrying capacity
Skill bonuses
Modifiers from class abilities (eg "while smite evil is in effect, the paladin gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any) to her AC against attacks made by the target of the smite")

Anything I missed?


Initiative.

You'd think they'd affect all ability checks, but those aren't listed in the glossary for some reason. Oops!

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Easiest way to be safe. The glossary is incomplete, if you use it as a limiter other than a "quick play" rules like the template quick play rules, then you are not doing it "correct". A FAQmakes this more clear.

Temp change things that add to a dice roll or static things like hit dice.
Perm also change things that are resources like /day.


From the FAQ.

Quote:

Temporary Ability Score Increases vs. Permanent Ability Score Increases: Why do temporary bonuses only apply to some things?

Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.

I wish I had a nickel for every time I've had to post this.


James Risner wrote:

Easiest way to be safe. The glossary is incomplete, if you use it as a limiter other than a "quick play" rules like the template quick play rules, then you are not doing it "correct". A FAQmakes this more clear.

Temp change things that add to a dice roll or static things like hit dice.
Perm also change things that are resources like /day.

Temp bonuses would also change uses per day, such as channel energy.


That's a confusing FAQ. "Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do." If that's the case, why would they have separate terms for permanent/temporary ability scores bonuses? What's the point of treating a bonus as temporary for 24 hours if it's exactly the same as a permanent bonus?

It makes more sense to me if temp bonuses don't change uses per day. If you gain +4 Charisma and then use two Channel Energies and then you lose that +4 Charisma, how many channels do you have left?


Matthew Downie wrote:

That's a confusing FAQ. "Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do." If that's the case, why would they have separate terms for permanent/temporary ability scores bonuses? What's the point of treating a bonus as temporary for 24 hours if it's exactly the same as a permanent bonus?

It makes more sense to me if temp bonuses don't change uses per day. If you gain +4 Charisma and then use two Channel Energies and then you lose that +4 Charisma, how many channels do you have left?

Exactly right, applied literally this would allow you take off your headband, put it back on, and refresh a pool or use/day ability that relies on that score.


? Not sure why it's confusing.

Let's say I have 3 channels per day. I use two of them (1 left). I get a +4 boost to Charisma (3 left). I use two more channels (1 left). My bonus goes away (0 left).

Now, that same day I get another +4 boost to Charisma (1 left). I can use one more channel while I have that temporary boost.

The point about 'treating as temporary for 24 hours' has already been explained. It's so you can't swap INT headbands whenever you need a certain skill. It's also for qualifying for feats.

Furthermore, if you get a temporary INT bonus that boosts your spells per day, it will likely be pretty difficult for a prepared caster to fill those slots before the bonus goes away.

However, according to the FAQ, a sorcerer gets extra spells, an alchemist gets extra bombs, a magus gets more arcane pool points, and so on...


Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:

That's a confusing FAQ. "Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do." If that's the case, why would they have separate terms for permanent/temporary ability scores bonuses? What's the point of treating a bonus as temporary for 24 hours if it's exactly the same as a permanent bonus?

It makes more sense to me if temp bonuses don't change uses per day. If you gain +4 Charisma and then use two Channel Energies and then you lose that +4 Charisma, how many channels do you have left?

Exactly right, applied literally this would allow you take off your headband, put it back on, and refresh a pool or use/day ability that relies on that score.

No it wouldn't.


Matthew Downie wrote:
What's the point of treating a bonus as temporary for 24 hours if it's exactly the same as a permanent bonus?

This is something of a problem, as in light of this FAQ it's not clear if there's any difference between a temporary or permanent bonus, except as explicitly described in the item description. Taken to its logical extreme, the FAQ seems to allow using temporary bonuses to increase the daily usage of abilities. I don't think this was the intent as it is a complete overturning of convention, but unless we get a clarification on the FAQ that says otherwise it seems to be a very legitimate interpretation of the current state of the rules.

This shouldn't allow infinite usage of abilities, however, as removing the item or having the bonus expire should work similarly to temporary hit points and drop your remaining uses of the ability below 0. For instance, a Summoner might have 6/day uses of summon monster. After using all his daily uses he removes his headband of alluring charisma and would drop down to -1 uses. If he puts the headband back on he returns to 0, so he can't use this to get back up to 1 use.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:

That's a confusing FAQ. "Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do." If that's the case, why would they have separate terms for permanent/temporary ability scores bonuses? What's the point of treating a bonus as temporary for 24 hours if it's exactly the same as a permanent bonus?

It makes more sense to me if temp bonuses don't change uses per day. If you gain +4 Charisma and then use two Channel Energies and then you lose that +4 Charisma, how many channels do you have left?

Exactly right, applied literally this would allow you take off your headband, put it back on, and refresh a pool or use/day ability that relies on that score.

Technically, for use/day resources, you are supposed to keep track of how many you have used up, not how many are left. That way, the number of uses remaining can in fact drop below zero, and the problem of repeatedly refreshing uses per day with temporary ability score boosts goes away.


Yup, there is absolutely no problem with tracking the effects of temp bonuses on use/day abilities. It's mostly that some people have a problem with the boost in power that goes along with it.


Permanent bonuses allows you to meet prerequisites for feats and abilities, temporary bonuses will not allow that. Otherwise, temporary and permanent change the same thing. INT headbands have the line where it is associated with a skill instead of giving more ranks, it only increases one skill to have ranks equal to character level. If a player wants to spend 16000 gold to have 4 headbands of INT to cover 4 different skills, let them.


Link2000 wrote:
Permanent bonuses allows you to meet prerequisites for feats and abilities, temporary bonuses will not allow that.

While this is the standard interpretation, I actually can't find any rule that outright says this. In light of the FAQ establishing that the list of things temporary ability bonuses apply to is not meant to be exhaustive (and as such the omission of daily ability uses is not evidence), it's an entirely reasonable interpretation that temporary bonuses do in fact add daily ability uses.

Under this interpretation, the only difference between permanent and temporary bonuses are those explicitly spelled out in the item description.


Dasrak wrote:
Link2000 wrote:
Permanent bonuses allows you to meet prerequisites for feats and abilities, temporary bonuses will not allow that.

While this is the standard interpretation, I actually can't find any rule that outright says this. In light of the FAQ establishing that the list of things temporary ability bonuses apply to is not meant to be exhaustive (and as such the omission of daily ability uses is not evidence), it's an entirely reasonable interpretation that temporary bonuses do in fact add daily ability uses.

Under this interpretation, the only difference between permanent and temporary bonuses are those explicitly spelled out in the item description.

Quote:
Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat.

How are feats gained? Are they instantaneously obtained once a certain XP threshold is reached? Are they learned over time?

While I do agree, if a temporary bonus can be maintained over a suitable period of time over which feats are obtained, it would be perfectly reasonable to allow someone to gain a feat using a temp ability bonus as a prerequisite, the lack of RAW regarding this process gives GMs enough leeway to say 'Nope'.


Say I'm a Cleric with a Headband of Charisma +2. That'd give me an extra channel per day. If the 24-hour clause wasn't there, there's two interpretations of how many channels I'd get. Say I have a Charisma of 12. Depending on how I count, I can now have infinite channels: Normally I can channel 4 times. The Headband gives me a fifth channel. I expend one channel, then remove the headband.
- If I count up, I have expended 1 of 4 channels. The headband potentially gives me a fifth use.
- If I count down, I have infinite channels. I had 4 uses. The headband gave me a fifth. I expended one, so I still have four uses. I remove the headband, I still have four uses. I put on the headband, I have five uses, I expend one, I have four uses. Repeat.
- There's also the interpretation that I've "used up" the magic in the headband. If I give it to a different Cleric, he won't get that extra Channel, because I've already used it. Otherwise, everyone would switch their Headbands for their neighbours's after every use.


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I don't even...

The ability is channels per day.

You count how many channels you've used. Is it less than how many channels per day you get with your current stat modifier? Yes? You can channel. No? You can't channel.

It's really that simple.


(It was more in reaction to Dasrak, not you, but okay.)

You'd think that, and I'm not disputing you, but I've seen someone try to cheese it that way so he had infinite uses of whatever it was he wanted to abuse. Unless everything's completely spelled out, some people will (intentionally or not) abuse rules vaguenesses.


People can try to cheese, but the ability specifically says you have a number per day = 3 + CHA modifier. If you have a +1 CHA modifier, you have 4 per day. You use 4 in one day and cast Eagle's Splendor, now you have a CHA modifier of +3. You have used 4 out of your current 6 uses. You channel 2 more times. You have channeled 6 times that day. Your modifier drops after the spell ends. You have still channeled 6 times that day and unless you acquire a CHA modifier higher than +3, you cannot gain any extra from a high CHA score.

With the FAQ, the only difference for temporary and permanent bonuses is whether or not you qualify for an ability, feat, etc.


Quentin Coldwater wrote:

Say I'm a Cleric with a Headband of Charisma +2. That'd give me an extra channel per day. If the 24-hour clause wasn't there, there's two interpretations of how many channels I'd get. Say I have a Charisma of 12. Depending on how I count, I can now have infinite channels: Normally I can channel 4 times. The Headband gives me a fifth channel. I expend one channel, then remove the headband.

- If I count up, I have expended 1 of 4 channels. The headband potentially gives me a fifth use.
- If I count down, I have infinite channels. I had 4 uses. The headband gave me a fifth. I expended one, so I still have four uses. I remove the headband, I still have four uses. I put on the headband, I have five uses, I expend one, I have four uses. Repeat.
- There's also the interpretation that I've "used up" the magic in the headband. If I give it to a different Cleric, he won't get that extra Channel, because I've already used it. Otherwise, everyone would switch their Headbands for their neighbours's after every use.

Specifically to reference this post, the Headband isn't giving you the fifth use, your new Charisma modifier is. Channeling 5 times in a day is channeling 5 times in a day. No amount of Headband switching changes that. Removing the headband and dropping your modified CHA does not increase or decrease the number of times you channeled that day, and neither does adding a headband.


FAQ - Pretty sure it covers this situation as well.


And again, I totally agree. I was just talking about the munchkins who either deliberately misinterpret the rules or choose to interpret them the most favourable way you can.
I see where they're coming from though, if you count down, you have 4 out of 4 uses (4/4), then 3 out of 4 (3/4), then 2/4, and so on. It's a matter of interpreting whether you consider it a buffer you use up first, like temporary HP, or reserve you use last. It makes sense to use the second interpretation, but there are always hopeful people who see it differently.


Quentin Coldwater wrote:

And again, I totally agree. I was just talking about the munchkins who either deliberately misinterpret the rules or choose to interpret them the most favourable way you can.

I see where they're coming from though, if you count down, you have 4 out of 4 uses (4/4), then 3 out of 4 (3/4), then 2/4, and so on. It's a matter of interpreting whether you consider it a buffer you use up first, like temporary HP, or reserve you use last. It makes sense to use the second interpretation, but there are always hopeful people who see it differently.

And as a frequent GM, I would inform them that their interpretation is incorrect, and that no matter how they count it, that they have already used that "fifth" channel. If it is a home game, I'd allow them to repurchase the gear that they thought would allow them unlimited channels if they are now no longer satisfied with it. If it is for PFS, I'd bring it up to the Venture Captain and see if they could be allowed the same.

I'm not saying to punish for interpreting the rules incorrectly, but they should be aware of the correct ruling and follow it (or not if the GM thinks its silly and house rules it otherwise).

In this case, I am letting anyone know in this thread that the FAQ states what happens with temporary bonuses, and dragonhunterq's post even further clarifies the ruling. :)


Interesting discussion.

I notice Fox's Cunning, Owl's Wisdom, etc, have specific clauses stating that the enhancement bonuses given by the spells do not give you extra spells per day. But presumably this wouldn't apply if you were, say, borrowing a headband.

It also means that Eagle's Splendor can be quite an efficient out-of-combat healing spell once per day. For a level 3 cleric, one level 2 spell slot can be used to give you two extra channels, giving a total of 4d6 healing to the entire group. That's better value than a single Cure Moderate Wounds from the same slot.


There are also a few ways to get temporary stat modifiers that don't have the restrictive wording on extra spells per day.

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