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Scrying clerification - Scrying an item inside a bag of holding inside a bag of holding?


Rules Questions


So, my GM and I have been arguing and his arguments aren't making sense to me. If I can provide a logical argument against him, he has a tendency to acquiesce, but we're at an impasse.

Very long story short, my character robbed the vault of a wizard's guild. Except for very short bursts to try to ID stuff, it is, as the subject line says, ALL stored inside a bag of holding, which is itself inside ANOTHER modified bag of holding. (Another long explanation shortened, he grafted a bag of holding to one forearm with the Inscribe Magical Tattoo feat, and made it so that it can only be opened by someone born of the blood of the same outsider that spawned his family line.)

Per the rules on extradimensional spaces, the normal bag of holding has ceased functioning.

I have two questions, directly related to the spell Scrying:

First and foremost, should scrying the items I stole give the wizards knowledge of where the items are, normally? Meaning, if they were just in a normal bag of holding in my backpack.

Second, in the instance that the bag of holding's internal space were severed from it's entrance, should there be any way for the aforementioned wizards to be able to chain-scry my character that way?

Directly related rules are best, but since I spend three days trying to find SOMETHING, I'm not sure it exists.


The inside of a bag of holding is a demiplane. Your best option for getting inside might be a Gate spell.


<..< I don't WANT people inside it. :P It's MY (party's) bag of holding lol.

The important thing here, though, is do you have something that I can reference to my GM that it's a demiplane?


Because, I'll be honest right now, that would be a HUGE game changer.


It is an extradimensional space. That doesn't make it a demiplane. And scrying works across planar boundaries anyway.

But scrying cannot be used to find objects, only creatures, so unless you stole somebody's familiar along with the rest of the loot you're safe from it.

If you did steal their familiar, scrying it will show them the inside of the bag of holding it's in, but if that bag has been cut off from its opening by being inside another bag then I'm pretty sure they can't see its outside (i.e. the inside of the arm-bound bag).

However, if they have the resources for the 8th-level discern location you're screwed. It can target creatures or objects and will literally tell them "it's in a bag of holding inside a bag of holding in the tattoo on the arm of Zarius the Thief, who is in room 228b of the Zarius Hotel in Zariusville in Zariusland on the Plane of Elemental Earth." Nothing but the direct intervention of a deity will stop discern location from telling exactly where the loot is.

EDIT: I use "somebody's familiar" only as an example of a creature you might have stolen. Being their familiar is not important, a pet would work just as well. I assume it has some way to avoid suffocating inside the bag.


Nope, no familiar, no pet, etc. No living creatures. As to discern location, that's... not something I'm prepared to deal with. I'd have to unload the entire haul just to make a magical item to do Mind blank (I'm actually pretty tempted). I'm equally tempted to use magic to alter my appearance long enough to unload most of the stuff.

However, I've not yet ID'd some of it, irritatingly enough, so I'd not be able to do so with ALL of it.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Legends Subscriber

extradimensional spaces are also extraplanar spaces, if that helps.

core rulebook page 501

this brings up the odd case I recently had come up where a player wanted to cast Dismissal on a human inside a portable hole and as far as i could tell it was legal =/

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Um, do you have another source for that?

The sidebar on p. 501 just talks about extradimensional spaces and putting them in one another, nowhere does it call them extraplanar spaces.

Core Rulebook, p. 501 wrote:
A number of spells and magic items utilize extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, a bag of holding, a handy haversack, and a portable hole. These spells and magic items create a tiny pocket space that does not exist in any dimension. Such items do not function, however, inside another extradimensional space. If placed inside such a space, they cease to function until removed from the extradimensional space. For example, if a bag of holding is brought into a rope trick, the contents of the bag of holding become inaccessible until the bag of holding is taken outside the rope trick. The only exception to this is when a bag of holding and a portable hole interact, forming a rift to the Astral Plane, as noted in their descriptions.


People often get overexcited about extradimensional spaces. The space made by a create pit spell is just as extradimensional, but (other than bags of holding not functioning inside it) it acts as an extension of the space it's attached to. It does not, for instance, get its own gravity and time flow as an actual plane would.


Zarius wrote:

Nope, no familiar, no pet, etc. No living creatures. As to discern location, that's... not something I'm prepared to deal with. I'd have to unload the entire haul just to make a magical item to do Mind blank (I'm actually pretty tempted). I'm equally tempted to use magic to alter my appearance long enough to unload most of the stuff.

Then if the only thing they're using is scrying you don't need to worry about them tracing the loot, even if you just used regular bags. Of course, they could try scrying for you if they can talk to any guards who saw you or whatever ("secondhand knowledge" on the scrying table).


As to the extradimensional/extraplanar, I did find ONE reference:
http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Extraplanar

Basically, if I'm understanding correctly, once it's cut off by being crammed into another bag of holding, the space inside the initial one WOULD become extraplanar. But, better, THIS does reference the core rule book:

http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Extradimensional

And states that the space inside the bag does NOT inherently exist on the same plane of existence as the bag of holding. For the purposes of even Discern Location, it is effectively it's own realm. Just microscopic, relatively speaking.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Those aren't game rulings or rules though, they're [the Wiki] using real world definitions in metaphysics to talk about the concept and subject of Extradimensional and Extraplanar (the sources they linked in the Bestiary and Core Rulebook don't back them up, they're merely philosophizing).

In Pathfinder Extraplanar and Extradimensional are two different things.


There are means other than scrying for finding stuff. Contact Other Plane or Commune for example, neither of which is hindered by the target being bag of holding'd or otherwise extraplanar at all. The difference between 5th and 8th level spells (Discern Location) might be significant.

But yeah, with nothing alive in there you're safe from being scried. It doesn't matter whether the contents of the bag are on this plane or any other if there's no valid target anyway.


Scrying works on people not items.


Yes AVR, but Contact Other Plane has severe potential risks (the more likely your contact is to be honest, the more likely you are to become a gibbering idiot for a period of time), and Commune is yes/no questions only.

Discern location I can't deal with right this second. I still need to ID three items before I can unload my haul.

And my GM is being a huge pain in my tail, disagreeing that "You can observe a creature at any distance" doesn't limit it to ONLY creatures. -.-"


Zarius wrote:
And my GM is being a huge pain in my tail, disagreeing that "You can observe a creature at any distance" doesn't limit it to ONLY creatures. -.-"

Why doesn't it? Because it doesn't say "only creatures"? It also doesn't say "only observe," so obviously you can use scrying to shoot arrows at the subject too.

Zarius wrote:
I still need to ID three items before I can unload my haul.

Or you could sell them as mystery items! "You can have this nifty-looking thing for 5000 gp. You'll have to figure out what it is yourself. Tell you what, take these other two nifty-looking things too and I'll knock it down to 4000 gp per."


Toss a Screen spell on it, and even if they find a way to scry an object, what they see will not help them.


Ultimate Intrigue has a section on how to deal with divinations, among others.

First sentence under 'Scrying' is:

Spells of Intrigue wrote:

The most important thing to remember about scrying is that it must scry a creature.

Also:

Spells of Intrigue wrote:

The 10-foot-radius visual requires the target to move in order to provide a clear idea of the layout of the destination, and the spell doesn’t directly indicate the location.

So, even if they scry you, that doesn't mean they have any idea where you are.


Evil, if I could do that, I'd just do a Mind Blank.

Foeclan THAT is useful.


Wait, Hang on, that's not anything to do with the Scrying spell? http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/scrying/


Ultimate Intrigue introduced alterations/nerfs to some types of spells, teleportation and scrying especially.

With appropriate planning the ability checks in COP are automatically beatable, and with a map and a series of yes/no questions you can narrow down an area rapidly.

Liberty's Edge

You may want to think about how you sell the haul. It is pretty cheap to give send lists of the stolen gear to all other shops specializing in magical gear.


Zarius wrote:
Wait, Hang on, that's not anything to do with the Scrying spell? http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/scrying/

That's some clarifications they put in for the 'Scrying' spell (among others). The link is to Divination spells, scroll down a bit and they list the spell Scrying.


Samish, I was planning, after finishing the ID job, to use teleport (I'll have to go check those mods/nerfs) to get to a larger city, and then Disguise Self to appear to be an entirely different race. Hawk a couple items here, a couple there. Say I found it in an abandoned temple, if anyone asks.


Also, Foeclan, now that I'm coherent, thanks for that :D That's a huge friggin' help to my case about scrying. Now I'm just boned the moment they use Discern Location.


Zarius wrote:
Also, Foeclan, now that I'm coherent, thanks for that :D That's a huge friggin' help to my case about scrying. Now I'm just boned the moment they use Discern Location.

Maybe focus more on defending against how they can get to you once they find you. If they get your location and try to teleport, maybe have some Teleport Traps (if you can afford a 7th-level spell) or Forbiddance. With some cheap Alarm spells you could make them burn more 8th-level spells trying to track you. Throw in some good old-fashioned traps (Wizards aren't known for great Fort or Reflex saves), you might be able to make it very expensive for them to come after you. Of course, that might just make them angrier...


Well, like I said, my PRIMARY plan is to just get rid of the loot. They're likely to be far more worried about their loot than about the nature of the thief. I qualify as an entirely unknown subject, and they have nothing of me or mine to track with, so Scrying affords me a +10. Even if they have a mage with a base 18 int, that added 5 points from level (assuming level 20), with a +6 item and a +5 tome, that's a 34 int. That's a total of a +12 modifier, with a +4 from the spell itself... effectively -10 for the conditions (I'm not on another plane). That's a total of 16 save. And, better, if I don't have the loot on me, it's going to be REALLY hard to pin it on me... my character is 10.

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