Banners?


Rules Questions


Hello all! Just have some questions about the Cavalier's Banners.

1. Let's say I'm making a Battle Herald. I have four levels of Cavalier (Standard Bearer), which replaces the mount with a banner right off the bat. At the 5th level of cavalier, the banner would get an upgrade. If I took a level of Bard, and then standard bearer, would the effective banner level be 5th? Battle Heralds do get the banner ability, but not until 5th level, so I would I have to wait until then for an upgrade?

2. Can the flag from the flagbearer feat, and the banner from the banner ability be the same thing? So you can grant both of the bonuses with one item.

3. Does the banner have to be held in hand? Could you by RAW just strap it to your back or something?

Thank you!


Could you please cite and quote relevant text so we know the general area to look and we're not hunting down all the information ourselves?


Moral bonuses don't stack.

The feat requires you to hold it (which means held in hand).

The Banner (Ex) class ability only says it needs to be clearly visible and carried. So you can strap it to your gear creatively.

Only cavalier levels count for the banner ability, unless you find the same ability granted as a bard, then your effective levels would stack. Aside from that, any bard levels count toward character level, but not class level.


Okay here's some quotes.

Flagbearer:

Flagbearer wrote:

Prerequisites: Cha 15.

Benefit: As long as you hold your clan, house, or party’s flag, members of that allegiance within 30 feet who can see the flag (including yourself ) gain a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, and saving throws against fear and charm effects. You must hold the flag in one hand in order to grant this bonus. If the standard is taken by the enemy or destroyed, this bonus becomes a penalty, affecting all creatures that the bonus previously affected for 1 hour (or until you reclaim the lost flag).

Cavalier Banner Ability:

Cavalier wrote:
At 5th level, a cavalier's banner becomes a symbol of inspiration to his allies and companions. As long as the cavalier's banner is clearly visible, all allies within 60 feet receive a +2 morale bonus on saving throws against fear and a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls made as part of a charge. At 10th level, and every five levels thereafter, these bonuses increase by +1. The banner must be at least Small or larger and must be carried or displayed by the cavalier or his mount to function.

Standard Bearer Archetype:

Standard Bearer wrote:

At 1st level, a standard bearer gains the banner ability. This ability is identical to the standard cavalier's banner ability, except that the morale bonuses on saving throws against fear effects and on attack rolls made as part of a charge increase at 5th level, and every five levels thereafter.

This ability replaces the standard cavalier's mount ability.

Battle Herald Banner Text:

Battle Herald wrote:
At 5th level, a battle herald may fly a battle standard that inspires her allies. This ability is identical to the cavalier's banner ability, and cavalier levels stack with battle herald levels to determine the bonuses provided by the banner.

Some clarification. Battle Herald says it stacks levels with Cavalier for banner. Does it start stacking with the 1st level of Battle Herald, or the 5th level of Battle Herald?

If I take four levels of cavalier (standard bearer), one level of Bard, and one level of Battle Herald I am 6th level. For the banner, am I an effective 5th level cavalier for banner? Or would I have to wait until Battle Herald officially gets banner for the levels to start stacking?

Could I use the banner for the banner ability as a flag for the flagbearer feat, and use both abilities at the same time? I know the morale bonuses won't stack for fear effects or attack rolls by charging, but aside from the overlap does that work? Can a banner be a flag?

Thanks. This is a big chunk. If Flagbearer and Banner can't be used together, I'd probably go for a two-hand or sword and shield build. Just wanted to check in to see about that.


Your banner is any symbol you say it. Family crest is usually the route. A banners whatever you have your insignia on. Even a shield would work.

Flagbearer specifically says flag, so if you made it a flag and held it in hand, yes the flag effects would overlap but not stack. So within 60ft your allies get the effects, and within 30 the additional benefits from flagbearer would kick in.

Yes, your banner level would be 5th. It stacks, and it's effects are the same as your archetype, if its different at all.

My advice would be ignore the flagbearer feat, and put your banner on your shield.

"This ability is identical to the cavalier's banner ability, and cavalier levels stack with battle herald levels to determine the bonuses provided by the banner." it says it's identical, and you'd have banner at 1st level archetype, these levels stack with those levels. As long as one class has access to it your levels stack.

Example, if your were a 4th level cavalier and a 4th level battle Harold, neither class has access to banner class ability yet, so the stacking wouldn't take effect until one does.

Make sense?


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Koi Eokei wrote:

Your banner is any symbol you say it. Family crest is usually the route. A banners whatever you have your insignia on. Even a shield would work.

Flagbearer specifically says flag, so if you made it a flag and held it in hand, yes the flag effects would overlap but not stack. So within 60ft your allies get the effects, and within 30 the additional benefits from flagbearer would kick in.

Yes, your banner level would be 5th. It stacks, and it's effects are the same as your archetype, if its different at all.

My advice would be ignore the flagbearer feat, and put your banner on your shield.

"This ability is identical to the cavalier's banner ability, and cavalier levels stack with battle herald levels to determine the bonuses provided by the banner." it says it's identical, and you'd have banner at 1st level archetype, these levels stack with those levels. As long as one class has access to it your levels stack.

Example, if your were a 4th level cavalier and a 4th level battle Harold, neither class has access to banner class ability yet, so the stacking wouldn't take effect until one does.

Make sense?

I think you are confusing having a coat-of-arms displayed on a shield being the same as a banner displaying it.

While it is fine to do so, I don't believe a shield would qualify as a banner. After a quick search, I could not find anything that says a banner can be anything other than a "rag on a stick".

It doesn't need to be 4' x 22', as is my Kingmaker PC's banner. But it does need to be a flag of some kind, otherwise only those facing the shield would be able to view it.

I would certainly make it unusable in combat if you are want any AC bonus from it, unless you wanted to grant the shield/banner benefits to a cone AOE facing whatever enemy you're in melee with.


I'd need to see proof.

Some magic items and feats specify that the banner or effect is a flag, but the cavalier ability makes no reference.

As far as "facing..." not sure what you're talking about.. does that even exist?

"a symbol of inspiration to his allies and companions. As long as the cavalier's banner is clearly visible.."

Besides the fluff in the cavalier description, there's no specific mention.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I find plenty of descriptions.

The Lord's Banner is a cloth flag or standard.

In Ultimate Equipment there is a banner once again stating it is a banner, flag, or pennant.

Can you find any instances where the banner is listed as something other than that?


The purpose of a banner is to visibly and clearly show your continued presence to all of your allies and enemies. It is a reassurance and/or a challenge to all who can see it. Francis Scott Key got it right in his banner song. So, no, your shield device is not a banner, but, if it carries the same symbols as the banner in question, it might enhance your connection with that banner. It is all about visibility, so size counts here.


The mundane item from UE is almost convincing, except, it's not stated as being such in the ability. It doesn't reference adhering it to a polearm or anything.

A coat of arms on your shield, an insignia, an ensign, a badge of office. What's to say what a banner should be for the cavalier's ability when it's not specified.


Koi,
You are adept and patient with word oriented searches. How many of the Banner abilities reference terms like "Displayed" and "Visible"?


Dazzling Display is the first thing that comes to mind. Isn't that also a visual effect within 30ft. or something if I'm not mistaking..


Isn't displaying "and must be carried" a clearly visible "symbol of inspiration to his allies and companions" very similar to the wording of this feat?

Motivating Display (Combat)
You can empower your allies through their fear of you.

Prerequisites: Cha 13, Dazzling Display, Weapon Focus.

Benefit: Whenever you use Dazzling Display to demoralize foes, you can motivate your allies to better serve you. In addition to possibly demoralizing foes within 30 feet, your Intimidate check while using Dazzling Display also applies to allies within 30 feet who can see you. The DC for this effect is the same as it would be to demoralize your allies. Each ally so affected gains a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and skill checks for the duration that it would normally be shaken.


That's the same idea, though I will bet you almost anything that someone will try to quibble the bolded text in... "In addition to possibly demoralizing foes within 30 feet, your Intimidate check while using Dazzling Display also applies to allies within 30 feet who can see you." ...

This kind of effect should never be subtle or concealable.


Yeah. It's nit-picky but worded "The banner must be at least Small or larger and must be carried or displayed by the cavalier or his mount to function."

Never states what the banner has to be. Never states gold piece value or anything. Its unfair that we get two pages on arcane bonds for wizard, but other classes are glossed over for whatever reason.

Now ultimate equipment was already released when advanced player's guide came out, so there shouldn't be any reason not to put the banner description in the text. I get that a banner should be a banner, but no mention of pacing it in a polearm, etc.

Battle Herald came out same time, at least it says "fly a battle standard.." but still..

Silver Crusade

There is a shield specific enchantment in the Armor Master's handbook that allows you to use a heavy shield or a tower shield as a banner for cavalier purposes.

Spoiler:

Heraldic
Price +1 bonus; Aura strong enchantment; CL 13th

DESCRIPTION

A shield with the heraldic special ability counts as a banner for the purposes of a cavalier’s banner class feature, and as a holy symbol for any creature that worships a deity. This special ability can be applied only to heavy shields and tower shields.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Cost +1 bonus; Feats Craft Magic Arms and Armor; Spells heroism


My question is if you have this enchantment on a shield would it be able to display a banner wondrous item such as a Knight's banner or champions banner?


Grazk wrote:

There is a shield specific enchantment in the Armor Master's handbook that allows you to use a heavy shield or a tower shield as a banner for cavalier purposes.

** spoiler omitted **
My question is if you have this enchantment on a shield would it be able to display a banner wondrous item such as a Knight's banner or champions banner?

Aaand you just proved that you can't put a Cavalier's Banner on a Shield without the enchantment... :D

By RAW you can't Display a Champion's Banner on a Shield without creating a new Magic Item... A Champions Banner is a magic object in his own right, not an enchantment you can enhance a shield with...

But through the Magic Item creation phase I would authorize it... In PFS I doubt you can... :)

Silver Crusade

Quote:

Aaand you just proved that you can't put a Cavalier's Banner on a Shield without the enchantment... :D

By RAW you can't Display a Champion's Banner on a Shield without creating a new Magic Item... A Champions Banner is a magic object in his own right, not an enchantment you can enhance a shield with...

But through the Magic Item creation phase I would authorize it... In PFS I doubt you can... :)

The Banners are typically slotless Items though, if it specified a slot it used I would immediately say "no you couldn't" but in this case you would have the slotless enchanted item displayed on a shield which you put 4k+ base shield price in order to display your Cavaliers banner.

Take the item Lord's Banner from the APG.
Spoiler:

Banner, Lord’s
Aura moderate (various schools); CL 10th

Slot none; Price 100,000 gp (crusades), 10,000 gp (swiftness), 56,000 gp (terror), 75,000 gp (victory); Weight 3 lbs.

Description
A lord’s banner is a cloth flag or standard, typically at least 2 feet wide and 4 feet long (though some are up to twice that size), meant to be carried and displayed on a lance, polearm, frame, or staff. It has no effect when not mounted properly or when laying on the ground. It normally depicts the insignia or heraldic symbol of a particular noble.

A lord’s banner may be carried (on foot or mounted) or planted. In the latter case, the banner does not need a bearer, but if it is toppled or touched by an enemy, it loses its effectiveness until reclaimed and replanted by allies of its owner.

Crusades: A noble-looking lord’s banner of crusades emits a hallow effect in a 40-foot radius around it, so long as it is borne by one true to the religion of the person whose crest is on the banner (these sorts of banners usually have a holy symbol or other religious insignia worked into the design). The banner displays the faith’s holy symbol along with the owner’s crest.

Swiftness: A group or army that are traveling under a lord’s banner of swiftness can make a forced march without needing Constitution checks or suffering any nonlethal damage from doing so, allowing them to cover great distances while still arriving ready to do battle. This ability affects all allied creatures within 1 mile as long as they are able to see the banner at least once a day.

Terror: Enemies of the bearer of a lord’s banner of terror, while within 30 feet and able to see the banner, must make a Will saving throw (DC 16) or become panicked, fleeing as quickly as possible for as long as they can see the banner. Those that succeed on the save are shaken. A creature that makes its saving throw is immune to the banner’s effects for 1 day.

Victory: Allies of the owner of a lord’s banner of victory gain a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and skill checks for as long as they can see the banner.

Construction Requirements
Craft Wondrous Item, eagle’s splendor (leadership), hallow (crusades), freedom of movement (swiftness), fear (terror), heroism (victory); Cost 50,000 gp (crusades), 5,000 gp (swiftness), 28,000 gp (terror), 37,500 gp (victory)

Could you not assume that your 4k+ shield is the frame that it is displayed on? Since that specific enchantment gives it the ability to display your banner?

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Banners? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.