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Do undead have negative hp?


Rules Questions


If the BBEG is some sort of undead death knight (some sort of unknown greater undead), can he either regenerate or be healed (an=egative channel) if he falls below 0 HP? Does he make con checks every round like a normal character?


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From the 'traits' section of the Undead subtype:

Not at risk of death from massive damage, but is immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points.

So undead don't bleed out the way mortals do. They're just immediately destroyed at 0 hp. A lot of more powerful undead have abilities that prevent them from being destroyed that easily, though.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

Not without some sort of unique property or house rule. Undead are generally destroyed at 0 hp; even those that aren't (such as vampires) usually have some other sort of thing that happens. The usual Constitution checks and such don't apply.


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As a regular rule, an undead creature is always destroyed when it reaches 0hp.
Unless it has another way to rejuvenate, as a vampire turning to mist or a lich's phylactery, it's assumed that the creature is destroyed.


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As Brew Bird said, undead and constructs fall apart when their HP reach 0. They have no CON score, so they can effectively go to -0 when determining when they'd die. Once it reaches 0, it's gone. Maybe enterprising (N)PCs can stitch them together and breathe new unlife in them, but generally, their animating forces have stopped by then.
Of course, things can vary depending on circumstances, so if you need an undead that can go into the negatives, I'm sure you can explain that in the fiction.


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In this case, it had a fats heal.... so I'm unsure ho that applies. Would that normally (I used the word loosely) apply?


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I'd rather give it a way to rejuvenate instead of giving them negative HP. It's more thematic and many undead already have similar capacities.
The Grave Knight is a template that I kinda like for the concept for a Death Knight, btw.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Lannister2112 wrote:
In this case, it had a fats heal.... so I'm unsure ho that applies. Would that normally (I used the word loosely) apply?

No. Fast healing doesn't work when you're dead/destroyed. For an undead creature, it is only useful while it has more than 0 hit points.


Fast healing isn't bad but I'm pretty sure regeneration makes undead invincible. Regen still turns all damage to non-lethal right? (undead don't take non-lethal that one I know is still present.)


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Vidmaster7 wrote:
Regen still turns all damage to non-lethal right? (undead don't take non-lethal that one I know is still present.)

Had to read it up myself, but:

Bestiary wrote:
A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.


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Vidmaster7 wrote:
Fast healing isn't bad but I'm pretty sure regeneration makes undead invincible. Regen still turns all damage to non-lethal right? (undead don't take non-lethal that one I know is still present.)

No, regeneration just makes it impossible for you to die. You still accumulate lethal damage, it says nothing about turning damage into nonlethal. A really unconventional regeneration might do the trick, but that's maybe cheating a little.

It's moot anyway, since undead don't have a CON score, but I'm wondering about the interaction between undeath and regeneration. Would it still fall apart, or would the regeneration still capture the life force and bind it to the corpse?

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

For the record, regeneration did convert all damage to nonlethal (except that of the appropriate types) back in 3.5.

Also, despite that line in Pathfinder's version of regeneration, I believe that one or two undead somehow ended up with it by mistake.


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Kalindlara wrote:
Also, despite that line in Pathfinder's version of regeneration, I believe that one or two undead somehow ended up with it by mistake.

Nemhain from B5 has 'profane regeneration', which also works for this undead CR 15 creature. Otherwise I couldn't find anything in B1 to B5 - maybe there is more in AP or CS books.

Many creatures with regeneration are outsiders, there are even two improved familiars with it (arbiter and the ugly kyton thing).


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theres a feat from way of the wicked that allows undead to go to negative their charisma modifyer

Scarab Sages

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Brew Bird wrote:

From the 'traits' section of the Undead subtype:

Not at risk of death from massive damage, but is immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points.

So undead don't bleed out the way mortals do. They're just immediately destroyed at 0 hp. A lot of more powerful undead have abilities that prevent them from being destroyed that easily, though.

"Destroyed" is loose though. They can't say the zombie becomes a corpse at zero, but destroyed sounds more damaged that it really is. Basically, when they get to 0 hp, they are unable to continue as undead, and revert to being regular corpses.

That said, their are lots of exceptions to even this. The most common is a necromancer, which can re-raise the same dead creature over and over, until the players either defeat the necromancer or make the necromancer unable to continue casting spells. Technically, party isn't fighting the same undead, it's a different one, but functionally, their fighting the same animinated corpse.

Another common one is the "Bloody Skeleton" (bestiary 1) which is easily destroyed (as easy as any other skeleton), but self-animates 1 hour after it is destroyed. Exceptions to this too, but it doesn't stay destroyed, so the term "destroyed" is somewhat misleading.


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This is why you decapitate the corpse, stuff its mouth full of garlic, stake its heart, cremate the body, pour holy water over the ashes, put it in a lead box and then disintegrate the box. Standard procedure for dealing with any named enemies.


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I might be thinking of the 3rd edition rules for it then, but yeah im pretty sure undead can't gave it igther way.


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So the bloody bones are only deactivated until the self repair function kicks in?

Scarab Sages

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JDLPF wrote:
This is why you decapitate the corpse, stuff its mouth full of garlic, stake its heart, cremate the body, pour holy water over the ashes, put it in a lead box and then disintegrate the box. Standard procedure for dealing with any named enemies.

The party that is putting undead in lead boxes is the same party whose GM doesn't care about carry weight....


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You put the lead box in a bag of holding. That fixes the carry weight problem.

Then you throw the bag into a portable hole. It's the only way to be sure.


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Matthew Downie wrote:

You put the lead box in a bag of holding. That fixes the carry weight problem.

Then you throw the bag into a portable hole. It's the only way to be sure.

and then you tare apart the planet you are trying to save because that's how black holes are made


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Lady-J wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:

You put the lead box in a bag of holding. That fixes the carry weight problem.

Then you throw the bag into a portable hole. It's the only way to be sure.

and then you tare apart the planet you are trying to save because that's how black holes are made

Do you want black holes? cause that is how you get black holes.


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Vidmaster7 wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:

You put the lead box in a bag of holding. That fixes the carry weight problem.

Then you throw the bag into a portable hole. It's the only way to be sure.

and then you tare apart the planet you are trying to save because that's how black holes are made
Do you want black holes? cause that is how you get black holes.

Actually, not a big deal unless someone has been allowed to ridiculously abuse the nesting bags sleaze. Your mass is going to be so small that the Schwartschild Radius will be subatomic, and the rate of accretion is going to be slower than the rate of evaporation. OK, the party is still toast, the undead definitely so, but the world itself will be safe.


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although the world is created essentially because of the PC's so if they are removed from it then the world ceases to exists as well. barring a module.

Dark Archive

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Vidmaster7 wrote:
although the world is created essentially because of the PC's so if they are removed from it then the world ceases to exists as well. barring a module.

So, like... if we die, the world stops existing, because it exists for us to exist in?

...that's deep, man.


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Exactly!


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But what about, like, the GM, man?


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That is like if a DM runs a game in the woods and no one is around to play is he still running a game?


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I have empirical evidence to the affirmative.


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That makes me worry about you a little.


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I had stopped checking this thread. I made a mistake. It has become much more interesting.


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Meta-physics and philosophy in a fantasy rpg setting whats not to love. (might be the nerdiest thing I have ever typed.)


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Then I am a nerd. And proud of it.


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Vidmaster7 wrote:
That makes me worry about you a little.

I'd make up little character sheets for the imaginary players. Then I'd add "character sheet" to the inventory on those character sheets and make up the in-game player characters for the character players. Oh the fun I had!


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quibblemuch wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
That makes me worry about you a little.
I'd make up little character sheets for the imaginary players. Then I'd add "character sheet" to the inventory on those character sheets and make up the in-game player characters for the character players. Oh the fun I had!

Fascinating do go on.

(In fact made a new alias)


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Very concerned Vidmaster7 wrote:
quibblemuch wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
That makes me worry about you a little.
I'd make up little character sheets for the imaginary players. Then I'd add "character sheet" to the inventory on those character sheets and make up the in-game player characters for the character players. Oh the fun I had!

Fascinating do go on.

(In fact made a new alias)

Not much more to tell really. Imagination obviates the need for friends and is a good deal more convenient. All those arguments about obnoxious players or lousy GMs on the messageboards? Don't have to deal with those if your players are imaginary! Malodorousness? Not if your friends are imaginary! Awkward silences? A thing of the past.

Imaginary(tm)--Like real, but without the gross or inconvenient bits.


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My imagination is sometimes a problem player too.


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sad thing is part of me knows your right.


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Until I can replace everyone with non-anthropomorphic robots who do all those things I need actual human beings to do, imagination is all I've got. Someday...

*wistfully stares off into robot future*


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Vidmaster7 wrote:
sad thing is part of me knows your right.

I'm always right.

But I'm also always left, because ambidexterity plus dyslexia means I have no friggin' clue what hand this iiiiiiiisssssss...!

EDIT: dang it, quibblemuch, you just haaaaaad to ninja me, didn't ya? Stupid quibblemuch, having a better imagination and thus better friend than me then also having to ninja me...


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*silently climbs up pipe and disappears into night*


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Adding to the late Quibble theme.

Vid, the World, including the PCs, is created for the Players, including the GM. Thus, for the World to go away, you need to take out all the players. Just Saying.

For some reason this has stuck in my head an old exchange I had with a "player" of another milieu.

Trite Line: "Hate the Game, not the Player."

Trite Reply: "Yes, but if you illuminate all the Players, there Is No Game."

EDIT. I can't spell today, eliminate works just about as well in an anti-social sort of way.
Equally trite though, but lacking the whole trickster mystic image I was maintaining.


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Daw wrote:

Adding to the late Quibble theme.

Vid, the World, including the PCs, is created for the Players, including the GM. Thus, for the World to go away, you need to take out all the players. Just Saying.

For some reason this has stuck in my head an old exchange I had with a "player" of another milieu.

Trite Line: "Hate the Game, not the Player."

Trite Reply: "Yes, but if you illiminate all the Players, there Is No Game."

I honestly can't tell if you meant "eliminate" or "illuminate." If the latter, that was kinda deep.

Scarab Sages

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Matthew Downie wrote:

You put the lead box in a bag of holding. That fixes the carry weight problem.

Bags of holding have both a fixed carry weight and limitations on how big something can be to fit inside. If the party's plan is to put every undead they encounter into a Lead Box, the weight of those bags of holding is going to start adding up.


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Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:

You put the lead box in a bag of holding. That fixes the carry weight problem.

Bags of holding have both a fixed carry weight and limitations on how big something can be to fit inside. If the party's plan is to put every undead they encounter into a Lead Box, the weight of those bags of holding is going to start adding up.

That's why they put a permanent shrink item on each one. Little cloth representations of lead boxes with undead remains in them don't weigh very much or take up much space.

Scarab Sages

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:

You put the lead box in a bag of holding. That fixes the carry weight problem.

Bags of holding have both a fixed carry weight and limitations on how big something can be to fit inside. If the party's plan is to put every undead they encounter into a Lead Box, the weight of those bags of holding is going to start adding up.
That's why they put a permanent shrink item on each one. Little cloth representations of lead boxes with undead remains in them don't weigh very much or take up much space.

Seems like a really expensive plan....

Sounds like one of those parties where the GM gave you too much starting gold.

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