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Intra-party Conflict


Advice

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That is a much cleaner way of phrasing, I just didn't want to put words in Kileanna's mouth so I just edited the sentence down to its base.

Still, it most certainly made sense and was well presented. You explained everything I was trying to with my convoluted paragraph long Joker analogies in like 5 sentences.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
ShroudedInLight wrote:

That is a much cleaner way of phrasing, I just didn't want to put words in Kileanna's mouth so I just edited the sentence down to its base.

Still, it most certainly made sense and was well presented. You explained everything I was trying to with my convoluted paragraph long Joker analogies in like 5 sentences.

Oh, yeah, you did it right with the way you handled it, too. I was mostly just giving one possible example, since she'd asked. :D

(And it's always too easy to mess up someone else's intent or understanding of something by even slightly modifying their phrasing, so you're absolutely correct on that score. I know I can have a long, detailed back-and-forth on fine point of vague implications due to minor word placement, rather than the actual argument put forward, as I've done exactly that on these forums, so... yup!)


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I must only add that my clunkiness is not related to not being a native English speaker. I can be clunky in a lot of languages! (Including my own)

And you don't know what you have done. You have taught me a new word. Now I am using it all the time! Clunky, clunky! I love how it sounds!


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kileanna wrote:
I must only add that my clunkiness is not related to not being a native English speaker. I can be clunky in a lot of languages! (Including my own)

Hey! What a coincidence! So can I~! :D


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Alignment is not a straight jacket.

A CE character can be chaotic (doesn't believe the laws are just) and selfish (I'll take what I can get and don't care if it leaves poor orphan bobby without food thank you) and that's just as CE as the evil cleric of flesh eating evil.

Just like a LG character can range from Dudley Do-Right to the guy who tries to follow the law as much as possible and looks out for his fellow (man-kind? Unsure what the word would be in a world of dwarves/elves/etc.)..

Just because most intelligent monsters are CE doesn't mean that's the ideal of the alignment - and the idea that the alignment is 'DRIPPING EVIL' is what causes people to be unable to have 'evil' in a mixed group without intra-party conflict so frequently.

A totally 100% selfish character can still end up being your most co-operative and helpful party member ever - assuming he has a motivation or goal that he thinks his assistance is serving. There isn't a 'strict way to play' it.

Heck even 'Paladin\Anti-Paladin' codes have wiggle room for many things (the law/chaos axis specifically) but once again the problem is that if two people disagree in principle about how alignment works it can cause problems at the table - especially if one of the two is the GM.

For all these reasons - it's why I'm not a fan of the alignment system as it stands - I think the old Law/Chaos axis was better - with evil represented on both sides but a clearer definition of what everyone was fighting over (on a cosmic scale).


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I gave Joker as an example of Chaotic Evil because he to me seems the closest villain to that alignment. Now Shrouded pointed out he can work with others and have patience to follow through with a plan.
The issue really doesn't seem to be about alignment about this player. He's playing Chaotic Stupid. Chaotic stupid is a player wanting to be an Ass because he thinks he can. My old group booted two players because of this. In both cases this was done after having several discussions out of game about their behavior both in and out of the game when we got together. It's harsh but my group suffered because the players drug everyone down. We all agreed we'd rather play WOW or Skyrim then play in a hostile environment the players were creating.


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Joker is one example of chaotic evil, but isn't the only way for CE to behave.

Someone that constantly breaks their word, is only out for themselves, and occasionally does something really evil (poisons parent for inheritance) because it benefits them is just as validly CE. They don't have to be obviously or in your face CE. Normally that's just someone playing a character that's psychotic, and has all the tact and subtlety of a flashing neon sign that "I kill for the LULZ".


I'm about to kill his character, and now he's sulking. He wants to make a full orc with the ability to mow down everything in his path.

Gad. What have I done?


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EltonJ wrote:

I'm about to kill his character, and now he's sulking. He wants to make a full orc with the ability to mow down everything in his path.

Gad. What have I done?

Tried to use an in-game solution for an out-of-game problem?


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GM Tyrant Princess wrote:
EltonJ wrote:

I'm about to kill his character, and now he's sulking. He wants to make a full orc with the ability to mow down everything in his path.

Gad. What have I done?

Tried to use an in-game solution for an out-of-game problem?

Pretty much, the general thread consensus was that your player was playing a Chaotic Stupid character and that the problem was less being a CE character than being an idiot in game. Basically, the guy/gal doesn't respect the consequences of his actions. There is no issue in playing an Orc, however if he plays as a stupid Orc you will have the exact same issue back on your hands.

Sit down and talk to him out of game about WHY his last character died and how he can prevent it from happening again. Explain that his actions have consequences and that he can deal with it or his characters will continue to die.

And it will be HIS fault, you can't maintain a functional fictional world without enforcing its laws.


a full orc wont be much of a problem to deal with they have alot of drawbacks, its much easyer to deal with an orc than say a human or a teifling or an aasimar heck even a half orc or half elf


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
EltonJ wrote:
What have I done?

GM Tyrant Princess and ShroudedInLight are correct.

So pay attention to what they just said.

That said, here is your current solution:

Say something like,

something like what you should say wrote:

"I'm sorry, but the answer is 'no' - the kind of character you are trying to play does not work well within the world or narrative I am interested in playing. You may select from this specific list of races, and may select from this specific list of classes. I understand you don't like alignments, so, once you select the alignment, instead of that, I'm going to work with you to develop a code (a list of general concepts that he strives to live up to or at least believes is worth living up to), a vow (something he has sworn to do, either to himself or another - this is something he would actually try to keep), a loyalty (someone or something he feels is of extreme importance), and an order society (a set of cultural norms to which he adheres). These things will help determine what your character feels and believes and how he behaves - though he can grow and evolve over time, these things are where he starts, and allows you to better understand what makes him make his decisions. "I do whatever I feel like, even if it's illogical or random." is not an option for any of these, nor is any variant thereof. This is not alignment: this is your character's psychology. It is what drives him and makes him tick. I will have an alignment for your character, for game purposes for myself, but you can safely ignore it.

However, know this: the world will react to your actions and behavior, not your stated intent or desires. To that end, you will need to work with the rest of the party - find a reason - and will need to function with a moderate degree of decorum within society. If you are unable to do this, your new character will likely be killed, soon, too. Note that this would not me targeting your character, by the way, this is the world responding to it.

Also, though they usually prefer to allow the world to function on its own, there is literally a council of the world's most powerful people with scads of dedicated servitors who do little other than continuously scanning for 'problems' and acting on it, so if you try to go too far out there, you will face enemies that will crush you, no matter what tricks you try. They are not 'good' aligned, or particularly heroic, so they will do things like insta-kill your character as he sleeps or is otherwise helpless, if they believe he is too disruptive.

Now, let's talk about the fact that you are causing social disruptions with their fellow players at the table. You are making the game less fun for me, less fun for them, and are now sulking about the fact that your character - who is behaving in a manner that would get pretty much anyone killed - happens to have gotten killed. That's ridiculous, dude. You are welcome at this table*, and I like giving people options, but you've been disruptive and un-fun. Please stop that, and just play the daggum game with your friends in a way we can all enjoy, together. Not just you, but you and your friends** here, around the table.

If you prove you're able to do this, I'll be glad to open up the list of things you have options to, in the future, once again, and might even give you a special quest to get a cool doohicky that lets you rewrite your character's entire everything***."

* I'm presuming he's welcome at the table.

** I'm presuming everyone is friends at this table.
*** Addendum: "If you try to make a monster, I will claim that monster as an NPC, and you'll just have to make a normal character from the restricted list I gave you, again, if you still want to game with us."

==============================

You may, of course, ignore this advice. But if his plans and characters and style is disruptive and un-fun (and your posts seem to indicate that it is), you need to have this talk.


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Tactics says it eloquently. Bottom line seems this player wants to play chaotic disruptive stupid. You and the group should talk to him out of game. My old group's longevity was due to the fact we were friends and talked about things. It's one thing to play evil, had two campaigns where everyone was evil group had a blast with it. It's another to play chaotic stupid like this guy is.


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Most times killing the character is not the solution. Some people would take as some kind of competition or offense and their behaviour instead of being better becomes worse.

Is he the kind of player who gets attached to his characters? Because if he isn't he might even find fun or irrelevant to get them killed.

You know him better than anyone on this boards do, so if you think this is a good solution, go with it, but in my long personal experience with conflictive players killing the character often solves nothing.


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You're going to have exactly the same problem but this time in an Orc suit.

Talk to him. Tell him, politely that the way he is playing PCs is disruptive. If after one session he still acts like a tool politely inform him he is no longer welcome.

Don't try and solve an out of game problem with in game solutions unless you are a masochist.


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Why would a good ruler want a unicorn dead, those things are generally good natured things?

"I'm evil."
"Okay, go kill that good natured pretty horse."

Weirdest sounding royal audience ever.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

He's using his assets strategically!

(But actually, I think the OP mentioned that it was a "black unicorn" somewhere, which means, if it follows most D&D trends instead of, say, Terry Brooks, that it's an evil unicorn.)


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Corvo Spiritwind wrote:

Why would a good ruler want a unicorn dead, those things are generally good natured things?

"I'm evil."
"Okay, go kill that good natured pretty horse."

Weirdest sounding royal audience ever.

Unicorns poop Skittles. Everyone knows that.


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+1 to what Tacticslion wrote


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Spacelard wrote:
Corvo Spiritwind wrote:

Why would a good ruler want a unicorn dead, those things are generally good natured things?

"I'm evil."
"Okay, go kill that good natured pretty horse."

Weirdest sounding royal audience ever.

Unicorns poop Skittles. Everyone knows that.

Taste the rainbow!

...

or don't


Agree with Tacticslion, hardly unexpected, that.

Ease up on the GM a bit. It is often very hard to deal with this kind of thing. A great many of us are brought up to believe we have no right to judge. The fact is that our survival as a species can be attributed to our ability to make judgments.

Now making judgments blindly and sticking to them slavishly is a Bad-Thing™, but, as the GM here, it is not only your right to pass judgment here, it is your responsibility to do so.

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