Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game

Starfinder


Pathfinder Society


Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

is the Magical Child archetype the worst archetype for Vigilantes?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

1 to 50 of 131 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>

The concept is fun if not silly, but if your DM is going to allow it and take it seriously then the tone of the game is already set I presume. However from a mechanical point of view is it viable given the threat level that appears in the game, especially at later levels?

Spellcasting is a mixed bag to me, I like that it's a spontaneous caster, I dislike that it's spell list is so underwhelming being that it's based on the unchained summoner spell-list, and that any spell on it that would pertain to a eidolon is off limits. So yeah, not seeing a whole lot of advantages here, but still its magic so there is versatility.

Transformation Sequence seems like its there for the silly aspect of playing one. Sailor Moon, Magic Knight Rayearth, Pretty Cure for the newer generations, in terms of ridiculous theatrical transformations. Personally, unless the game says there is a high amount of social challenges and even then im not 100% convinced a social identity is necessary, the chances of you all of a sudden needing to fight, and of course needing to change appearances seems like a hinderance at best, no matter how fast you can do it, since you'd have to hide and do it anyway. I'd likely stay in my vigilante persona indefinitely when adventuring, and in a party dynamic why would ever not be in it? Like Batman in the Justice League cartoon, there is really no point in Bruce Wayne being there,(by there i mean with the members of the league.)

but what kind of stood out to me the most was the familiar feature. Its definitely belongs there but what you give up for it seems to be to much of a drawback for what you get in return. I see no advantages here, it's a familiar thus its not combat oriented, and outside of the familiar bonus which can be help it doesn't make up for what you lose in terms of vigilante specialization.

i guess what im saying is, between the spellcasting limitations from the spell list, and the familiar being next to useless, the magical child archetype sounds fun but doesn't look fun to play.


10 people marked this as a favorite.

The worst vigilante archetype is most certainly the Brute, which gives combat bonuses barely if at all superior to the Avenger in exchange for a hideous drawback.
The magical child at least grants something. You can combo its improved familiar with a familiar archetype like mauler, which is unique and helps its in-combat ability.

Liberty's Edge

6 people marked this as a favorite.

Magical Child is silly and a bit niche but it's far from the worst vigilante archetype. It provides some unique benefits without losing too much.

Brute is just hands down terrible. At some point I'd like to get a hold of whoever wrote it and find out how it was supposed to work.


6 people marked this as a favorite.

I think the Brute Vigilante archetype may well be the worst archetype of any class in the game because of:

Quote:
While he still attacks enemies preferentially during a battle, when there are no more enemies around, each round he must succeed at a Will save (DC = 20 + 1/2 his vigilante level) or continue fighting against his allies or bystanders.

This may well be the single worst drawback of any class feature in the entire game and basically renders it singularly inappropriate for a player character.

The Magical Child isn't very good though, it's more of a flavor thing.

Contributor

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Huh. Apparently it's been a really long time since I read the Magical Child archetype, cause I could have sworn it got an eidolon, and not a familiar. That's...disappointing.

That said, I still don't think it's terrible. It's an archetype I'd still consider playing in a fun, casual game, for the flavor at the very least.

Mako Senako wrote:
Personally, unless the game says there is a high amount of social challenges and even then im not 100% convinced a social identity is necessary, the chances of you all of a sudden needing to fight, and of course needing to change appearances seems like a hinderance at best, no matter how fast you can do it, since you'd have to hide and do it anyway. I'd likely stay in my vigilante persona indefinitely when adventuring, and in a party dynamic why would ever not be in it? Like Batman in the Justice League cartoon, there is really no point in Bruce Wayne being there,(by there i mean with the members of the league.)

To be fair, this applies to most vigilantes, not just the magical child. It's generally a difficult class to make work unless the game is designed for it.


6 people marked this as a favorite.
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think the Brute Vigilante archetype may well be the worst archetype of any class in the game because of:

Quote:
While he still attacks enemies preferentially during a battle, when there are no more enemies around, each round he must succeed at a Will save (DC = 20 + 1/2 his vigilante level) or continue fighting against his allies or bystanders.
This may well be the single worst drawback of any class feature in the entire game and basically renders it singularly inappropriate for a player character.

Well, there's another archetype that prevents the vigilante from wearing armor while offering no defensive benefits and a -2 penalty to AC. Wait, no. That's the same archetype...

As far as the magical child itself, keep in mind that this is an archetype that allows you to have a pet goat that turns into a clockwork raven and performs vengeance strikes.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Michelle A.J. wrote:

Huh. Apparently it's been a really long time since I read the Magical Child archetype, cause I could have sworn it got an eidolon, and not a familiar. That's...disappointing.

That said, I still don't think it's terrible. It's an archetype I'd still consider playing in a fun, casual game, for the flavor at the very least.

Mako Senako wrote:
Personally, unless the game says there is a high amount of social challenges and even then im not 100% convinced a social identity is necessary, the chances of you all of a sudden needing to fight, and of course needing to change appearances seems like a hinderance at best, no matter how fast you can do it, since you'd have to hide and do it anyway. I'd likely stay in my vigilante persona indefinitely when adventuring, and in a party dynamic why would ever not be in it? Like Batman in the Justice League cartoon, there is really no point in Bruce Wayne being there,(by there i mean with the members of the league.)

To be fair, this applies to most vigilantes, not just the magical child. It's generally a difficult class to make work unless the game is designed for it.

If having the dual identity isn't necessary, I usually just Tony Stark it.


9 people marked this as a favorite.

The Brute is far and away the worst archetype, since it gives you some truly hideous drawbacks for very little gain.

Magical Child is one of the weaker archetypes due to the spell list being on the weaker side and not having an eidolon, though.

Mostly I just think it doesn't represent what a Magical Girl DOES particularly well. Sailor Moon, Cardcaptor Sakura, Madoka, and so on DO all have animal mascots and such, but it's actually fairly rare that their companion actually fights personally rather than giving them advice and emotional support.

And typically when magical girls fight, it's with martial arts or blasting magic, which means the Avenger and Warlock vigilantes with the magical transformation talent are more accurate depictions of magical girls than the Magical Child archetype. Really if a magical girl isn't going hand-to-hand with evil or using big blasty spells she tends to have more emotional-based powers in which case I feel the Magical Child resonates better with the Bard spell list.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Magical Child has some issues, but it's not far off from working well.
- Mauler archetype on an improve familiar. If your GM okays this fairly reasonable rules interpretation, you've got yourself a passable pet class with more face skill bonuses than normal.
- Some small edits to the spell list can go a long way. Mainly the eidolon-only spells that you can't use. If your GM is willing to at least let you cast the healing/condition removal spells on party members, then you can cover buffing and healing.
- If you take VMC Bard, then at level 7 you have a solid addition to your options. Vigilante talents help make up for the feats you trade away.

At the end of the day, you're still a 6/9 caster with lots of social bonuses, great class skills, and an improved familiar.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Magical Girl is a bit underwhelming. You're a 6th level caster, but the u-summoner spell list was basically designed to be a power limiter on the Summoner class, so it's not super great. Some fairly permissive readings of Animal Guide make it interesting enough though.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

How much of an upgrade would giving it Chained Summoner Spell list be?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Honestly if you're going to alter it yourself for your games.
I would really say allow the Eidolon spells to work on the familiar. Within reason anyway. Like allowing it to briefly add on evolutions for a fight, healing it, summoning it closer. Maybe the temp summon if the familiar had died etc. Would require going through each one but that woudln't really be that difficult honestly.

It would represent some varietys of magical child very well.
Card Captor Sakura's familiar in later seasons effectively had this. It woudl go battle mode and if Sakura provided more magic and or clow abilities he could expand is abilities slightly.

Though I still wish the archetype had gained the warlock's blasting feature, or a muted kineticists blast.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

Yeah I'm going to have to also say the brute is the worst one.


5 people marked this as a favorite.

Brute...

- No control over your form...
- No stat enhancement with your form...
- No Barbarian powers with your form...

Sure, you can homebrew vigilante powers to avoid those problems, but come on, at its core, it's pretty flawed...

As for the Magical Girl archetype, my only problem is that... the spell list doesn't work with it. A Summoner DOESN'T use a familiar, but an eidolon. If it was an eidolon, it would have worked just fine.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

are their ways to add spells to spell-list from other classes? like back in 3.5 or was it 3.0, I remember Dragon have feats that added tons of spells to a sorcerer's spell known which probably served as the bases for the bloodline feature they have now.


Mako Senako wrote:
are their ways to add spells to spell-list from other classes? like back in 3.5 or was it 3.0, I remember Dragon have feats that added tons of spells to a sorcerer's spell known which probably served as the bases for the bloodline feature they have now.

You... could use the Unchained Summoner's new spell list.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mako Senako wrote:
are their ways to add spells to spell-list from other classes? like back in 3.5 or was it 3.0, I remember Dragon have feats that added tons of spells to a sorcerer's spell known which probably served as the bases for the bloodline feature they have now.

Rings of spell knowledge, a few PrCs like the Pathfinder Savant, some feats particular to classes other than the vigilante, unfortunately. Nothing quite like the one-spell-per-spell-level feats you're thinking of though.

Contributor

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Tbh, if I were to play Magical Child in a home game, I'd probably see if I could work with the GM to alter it. I'd either want to get an eidolon in place of a familiar, or cast spells from some other spell list. Maybe handle it the way Warlock does, and cast spells from bard (or possibly even druid) using the Usummoner progression, so you still max out at 6th level.

I'd have to actually mess around with it a bit to make sure it doesn't unbalance anything too much, but doesn't seem like it would be too hard to brew a fix.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
JiCi wrote:
Mako Senako wrote:
are their ways to add spells to spell-list from other classes? like back in 3.5 or was it 3.0, I remember Dragon have feats that added tons of spells to a sorcerer's spell known which probably served as the bases for the bloodline feature they have now.
You... could use the Unchained Summoner's new spell list.

i wasn't aware it got one. is it on the srd?


3 people marked this as a favorite.
JiCi wrote:

Brute...

- No control over your form...
- No stat enhancement with your form...
- No Barbarian powers with your form...

Sure, you can homebrew vigilante powers to avoid those problems, but come on, at its core, it's pretty flawed...

As for the Magical Girl archetype, my only problem is that... the spell list doesn't work with it. A Summoner DOESN'T use a familiar, but an eidolon. If it was an eidolon, it would have worked just fine.

Speaking of that:

Changes:
No limitations to amount of times one can turn to and be Brute, it already has weakness that it fatigues same amount of time after (plus can't be immune unlike Barbarian).
No altering weapons/armor proficiencies. This changes lets you stack more archetypes with it.
Bonus feat- Improved Unarmed Strike (they originally gave the feat in the Weapon/armor profiencies).
Temp hp x2 Class level while in Brute (these refresh if come back to Brute after 10 minutes from reverting).
NA Boost: At 1st and every 5 thereafter,(1st, 5, 10, 15, 20) gains +1 to base NA.
Saves: Good Reflex/Fort, it supposed to have bad will like Unchained Monks. So let us keep that for Prereqs like Prcs.
Indomitable Mind: class feature that grant +1 Will saves every 1/4th level starting at 4th (so 4, 8, 12, 16, 20) resulting in +5 at 20. This represents he gets better at controlling himself and his Mind as time goes by. In total, along with his poor Will save, this adds up to +11, a almost Good Will save. So his base saves look like this:
+12 Fort/+6 Reflex/+6 (+5)=11 Will saves.

Talents:
Wounded Ferocity: While a Brute, in Vigilante form, is at 1/2 or lower health, they gain +1 hit/damage with all attacks and their DR 1 higher (if they have no DR, they gain DR 1/-). This increases at every 4 levels by +1 more hit/damage and their DR increases by 1 more (If they had multiple types of DR, it increases all of them by 1). Only Brute may take this talent.

Control yourself: When a Brute succeeds on a Will save to not attack allies or innocence bystanders, instead of reverting you may stay in Brute form. You don't need to roll a Will save to control yourself for 5 minutes (after that time you must roll as normal). Only Brute may take this talent.
Strikeback: A brute who has this talent can attack to attack any who attack him as AoO (attack of opportunity) limited by number of AoO you are limited to (Combat reflexes expanse this as normal). Only Brute may take this talent.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mako Senako wrote:
JiCi wrote:
Mako Senako wrote:
are their ways to add spells to spell-list from other classes? like back in 3.5 or was it 3.0, I remember Dragon have feats that added tons of spells to a sorcerer's spell known which probably served as the bases for the bloodline feature they have now.
You... could use the Unchained Summoner's new spell list.
i wasn't aware it got one. is it on the srd?

Right there ^_^


1 person marked this as a favorite.

That's the MC's default spell list.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Getting Summon Monster IV through VII using 3rd through 6th level slots is pretty sweet. As is getting Plane Shift as a 6th level spell.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Starbuck_II wrote:
How much of an upgrade would giving it Chained Summoner Spell list be?

A significant one due to the early access spells, though I might be more interested in giving them the standard action summon monster and the current list so they can actually function well as monster summoners.

Personally, if they are going to be about spreading hope and inspiration, I would give them the bard list and possibly access to some of the lower-level performances as vigilante talents. The familiar is cool, but I don´t see why it should be the main selling point of the class.

Overall, I´d say it is probably my least favourite - and likely least powerful - vigilante caster archetype. Definitely less of a pain than the brute, though.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mako Senako wrote:
JiCi wrote:
Mako Senako wrote:
are their ways to add spells to spell-list from other classes? like back in 3.5 or was it 3.0, I remember Dragon have feats that added tons of spells to a sorcerer's spell known which probably served as the bases for the bloodline feature they have now.
You... could use the Unchained Summoner's new spell list.
i wasn't aware it got one. is it on the srd?

they did and its terible


12 people marked this as a favorite.

Magical Child's problem isn't that it's too anime, it's that it's not anime enough.

I mean, I think it would work for some of the easier magical girls (I could probably make Precure and Utena work with this), but for any with memorable finishing moves, or summoned weapons like Nanoha, it falls short.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
PK the Dragon wrote:

Magical Child's problem isn't that it's too anime, it's that it's not anime enough.

I mean, I think it would work for some of the easier magical girls (I could probably make Precure and Utena work with this), but for any with memorable finishing moves, or summoned weapons like Nanoha, it falls short.

There's also the Chosen One Paladin archetype, which is a young warrior for Love and Justice with a magical pet.

Or you could play a regular class, and just say the character's young: Magus, Sorcerer, Oracle, Bard, Kineticist, or other class would have the right sorts of powers without too many changes.

Or you could homebrew something.

Paizo Employee Community & Digital Content Director

5 people marked this as a favorite.

Removed a baiting post. Dismissing entire genres as "trash" in this way contributes nothing to the conversation.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
PK the Dragon wrote:
Magical Child's problem isn't that it's too anime, it's that it's not anime enough.

Well, I think the problem is the construction of the archetype is just kind of odd.

Like, what sort of character fantasy does the U-Summoner spelllist actually help fulfill? It's a hodgepodge of summoning spells mixed in with a smattering of buffs and bfc and a few utility spells. Without the context of the actual summoner it comes off as odd and slightly disjointed and I'm just not sure what it actually tries to accomplish for the magical child.

It's a lot harder for me to discern the goal, mechanically at least, of the archetype over the others. It's got a super familiar, can change identities faster and that spellist I just complained about and that's it. You can certainly build one to be effective and being a sixth level spellcaster even with a weak list pretty much guarantees you'll be at least okay, but what exactly does the archetype set out to accomplish, mechanically? I can't tell.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

you get a lot of personal buff spells. Barkskin, heroism, shield, false life, and with no eidolon you're more free to use those on yourself or share with others. You qualify for arcane strike and have nothing else using your swift actions.
So you'd make a great buffer that sends the buff familiar to deliver your buffs for you, or a great self buffer to go into combat with a familiar joining you.
This archetype definitely doesn't have a clear theme or direction it's supposed to go though.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

the problem i have with it isnt that its the summoners spell list but its the unchained summoners spell list, with the normal summoners spell list it would be a bit more aceptible but the unchained varient is just plain awful


2 people marked this as a favorite.

The unchained list compared to original might be viewed as "awful" but compared to the mesmerist, bard, alchemist or WP, you know, other 6th level casters, and it looks fine to me. Yes is focused in on stuff, but so are most of the other 6th level lists.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Chess Pwn wrote:
The unchained list compared to original might be viewed as "awful" but compared to the mesmerist, bard, alchemist or WP, you know, other 6th level casters, and it looks fine to me. Yes is focused in on stuff, but so are most of the other 6th level lists.

each of those 6 level casters has spells they specilized in and got earlyer than other casting classes the summoner had that too but the unchained summoner removed that benifit, ill even provide an example, bards get heroism as a level 2 spell every one else that can cast it has it as a level 3 spell, normal summoners get haste as a level 2 spell every one else that can cast it gets it as a level 3 spell however the unchained summoner also gets it as a level 3 spell. they also do this for many other spells in the unchaiend summoner spell list


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'd give the the magical child the cleric spell list to represent the often light-based, angelic themed powers that magical girls get. Either that or the bard list to represent their musical talents.


6 people marked this as a favorite.

Magical Child totally should have had the Bard list

But the worst archetype still ist the Brute


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Entryhazard wrote:
But the worst archetype still ist the Brute

The truth of this statement cannot be underscored enough.

It's one of those archetypes I really, really, really want to like. A lot. It's ambitious, and thematically cool, and probably had someone working hard on it to make it function in a way they thought was balanced.

That's about all it has going for it, from what I can tell.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I'd have considered a combination of the witch and bard list, similar to how the hunter combines druid and ranger.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There are a few archetypes between the Brute and Magical Child. While MC has some issues, trading for casting and an improved familiar is still a fair deal. A familiar is worth a talent, and improving it is worth a feat. The spell list isn't the best, but buffs are better than rebuffs, so ultimately I'd put it at about the same level as the Cabalist. Magical Child just has certain expectations to live up to in terms of what it represents, and it doesn't go quite that direction. (That said, my friend is making a really cool ratfolk magical girl, so it does do its job if you aren't copying an existing magical girl too closely.)


4 people marked this as a favorite.

Honestly I'd just rename Warlock to Magical Child, give it Transformation Sequence for free, and make mystic bolts less gimpy (not needed, just a personal pet peeve with the archtype). All day magical lightshow blasts and the spell list with the flashiest spells.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber
Lady-J wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
The unchained list compared to original might be viewed as "awful" but compared to the mesmerist, bard, alchemist or WP, you know, other 6th level casters, and it looks fine to me. Yes is focused in on stuff, but so are most of the other 6th level lists.
each of those 6 level casters has spells they specilized in and got earlyer than other casting classes the summoner had that too but the unchained summoner removed that benifit, ill even provide an example, bards get heroism as a level 2 spell every one else that can cast it has it as a level 3 spell, normal summoners get haste as a level 2 spell every one else that can cast it gets it as a level 3 spell however the unchained summoner also gets it as a level 3 spell. they also do this for many other spells in the unchaiend summoner spell list

Haste at 4th level was broken. It was the worst offender of the summoner spell list and never should have been granted early access. Prior to level 6, no one has iterative attacks, and getting a second attack is the special ability of monks, two weapon fighters, and cleave.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Haste one level earlier wasn't broken. It would have been fine if bards had it at that level. But I don't think anything in the summoner's flavor should have them getting that spell early. Their early access spells should have all been conjuration based.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

So he got a spell a level early. OHNOE. Wizards get it at 5th and it was what made a summoner great.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

5 people marked this as a favorite.

Eh, the real issue with the chained summoner list was allowing otherwise 4th level spells as potions (stoneskin, dimension door), and otherwise 5th level spells as wands (teleport). The level at which the summoner got the spells really wasn't as much an issue as circumventing restrictions on cheap spell-in-a-can items.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

That wouldn't explain why PFS went with the unchained summoner though, since they ban item crafting by player characters.

I guess they were more concerned with the evolutions than the spells, though, now that I think of it.

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
David knott 242 wrote:

That wouldn't explain why PFS went with the unchained summoner though, since they ban item crafting by player characters.

I guess they were more concerned with the evolutions than the spells, though, now that I think of it.

Going with Unchained was company wide, not just for PFS. After Unchained the UnSummoner is the only version supported by Paizo in their products.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Honestly I'd just rename Warlock to Magical Child, give it Transformation Sequence for free, and make mystic bolts less gimpy (not needed, just a personal pet peeve with the archtype). All day magical lightshow blasts and the spell list with the flashiest spells.

About that IIRC there is a talent or feat that gives the Transformation Sequence to any vigilante that also has casting (through archetypes or multiclassing)

Scarab Sages

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Haste is not "just one spell", it is THE spell. I'd guess presence or absence of it is more relevant to party power than the point-buy level.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

If the only qualification for good summoner list is haste as lv2 and a garbage list is haste lv3 then I just don't agree. Yes the list is worse off not having haste lv2. sure the bard gets heroism, a thematically appropriate spell at lv2. But no other 6th caster gets heroism at lv2. Some like the WP don't get any spell at a reduced spell level. So I don't think it's fair to judge a list on what it doesn't have but by looking at what it actually has and can be used for.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The original Summoner Spell List also had Greater Invisibility as a 3rd level Spell and Summon Monster VII & VIII as a 5th & 6th level spells.

1 to 50 of 131 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / General Discussion / is the Magical Child archetype the worst archetype for Vigilantes? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002-2017 Paizo Inc.® | Privacy Policy | Contact Us
Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours, Monday through Friday, 10:00 AM to 5:00 PM Pacific time.

Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, Starfinder, the Starfinder logo, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Legends, Pathfinder Online, Starfinder Adventure Path, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.