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Unchained Rogue: Am I crippling myself by NOT going TWF?


Advice

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chaoseffect wrote:

Going against the general consensus here, I think Two Weapon Fighting Rogue is pretty sweet, at least at high level. Focus stealth and you can go toe to toe all day without the enemy really being able to do too much about it: Hell Cat Stealth, Dampen Presence, Conceal Scent, some mundane alchemical options and spells... pump stealth and defeat extraordinary/supernatural senses. The level 15 skill unlock counts all attacks after you break stealth for a turn as sneak attacks, so break stealth full attack, 5ft step hide. Upgrade Swords of Subtlety for that sweet extra +4 on all sneak attacks. If you are an evil a~*$*&+, worship Shax and at level 20 get extra sneak attack dice plus +2 extra damage per die via Demonic Obedience.

That may not be viable for starting low level, but TWF just makes a high level rogue into a wrecking machine. I'd say it's worth having in time for your rank 15 Stealth unlock at the very least.

Omfg sword of subtlety GIVE IT TO ME

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

Also, unchained rogue has an accuracy booster in debilitating injury. That AC reduction really makes the iteratives hit, you just need to land the first attack.


chaoseffect wrote:
...stuff about stealth...

Except all of this is not directly related to 2WF and a 2HW-rogue could do it just as well (even better is you consider that 2HW is less feat-hungry than 2WF, so you may have more feat slots for your stealth stuff).

So, the comparison remains unchanged: the 2WF-rogue is (allegedly) the "king of DPR" if he can full-attack + sneak-attack. In any combat situation where he is denied one or the other, he (allegedly) *sucks*.

Spoiler:
Honestly, I do not really care what a 15th-level rogue can do, because I know what he cannot do: he cannot cast 8th-level spells.


Djelai wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
...stuff about stealth...

Except all of this is not directly related to 2WF and a 2HW-rogue could do it just as well (even better is you consider that 2HW is less feat-hungry than 2WF, so you may have more feat slots for your stealth stuff).

So, the comparison remains unchanged: the 2WF-rogue is (allegedly) the "king of DPR" if he can full-attack + sneak-attack. In any combat situation where he is denied one or the other, he (allegedly) *sucks*.

** spoiler omitted **

If we're still going at 15th level, I feel like we'll have so many magic items that it won't matter. I can pick up one feat of TWF just for the extra attack and then still do most of what I wanted. My primary goal was to get as many ways to sneak attack as easily as possible and I think I am covering that base.


Roboctopus wrote:
If we're still going at 15th level, [...]

No, we don't (or, at the very least, I don't).

I was merely pointing out that « being stealthy » and « fighting with two weapons » are unrelated.


Djelai wrote:
Roboctopus wrote:
If we're still going at 15th level, [...]

No, we don't (or, at the very least, I don't).

I was merely pointing out that « being stealthy » and « fighting with two weapons » are unrelated.

With some work you can have functionally perfect stealth which gives you sneak attacks on every hit and near perfect defense as nothing can Target you. That negates the arguments of "toe to toe is dangerous" and "sneak attacks are unreliable". With defense and reliability taken care of then focusing TWF offense becomes that much more viable and the benefits other styles have over it diminish. Again I am arguing this is the best late game option not necessarily a low level focus.


So an update:

Our DM leveled us to 5 last night and showered us with WAY more money than we should have. (Approx 15k each). Now we can't get everything we want, but we have options and can hire someone to make us stuff.

He let me change out Offensive Defense for Minor Magic and I am going to take Major Magic: Shocking Grasp at 6.

I also picked up TWF.

I am going to get Vambraces of Duelist made so ny offhand never has penalties. I am also going to get a Spellstoring weapon for shocking grasp sneaks.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

I'd recommend using chill touch instead of shocking grasp for major magic. Shocking grasp is one touch attack SA and done. Chill Touch will give you 6 attacks vs touch, debuff str, or allow control vs undead.


Roboctopus wrote:

So an update:

Our DM leveled us to 5 last night and showered us with WAY more money than we should have. (Approx 15k each). Now we can't get everything we want, but we have options and can hire someone to make us stuff.

He let me change out Offensive Defense for Minor Magic and I am going to take Major Magic: Shocking Grasp at 6.

I also picked up TWF.

I am going to get Vambraces of Duelist made so ny offhand never has penalties. I am also going to get a Spellstoring weapon for shocking grasp sneaks.

5k gold is hardly way more he just gave you almost enough for some one, one level higher while not game breaking i would highly sugest you and your party members get ready cuz it looks like he might be turning up the dificulty dial. as that is a common way for dms to up the chalenge fairly with out actually leveling up the party


Roboctopus wrote:


I am going to get Vambraces of Duelist made so ny offhand never has penalties.

is there an upgraded vertion of those?


Lady-J wrote:
Roboctopus wrote:


I am going to get Vambraces of Duelist made so ny offhand never has penalties.

is there an upgraded vertion of those?

I don't think so. But I'll take it!


Imbicatus wrote:
I'd recommend using chill touch instead of shocking grasp for major magic. Shocking grasp is one touch attack SA and done. Chill Touch will give you 6 attacks vs touch, debuff str, or allow control vs undead.

How does chill touch interact with a spell storing weapon? The main appeal of going this route is being able to cast the spell with my weapon for a big burst of damage. Also how many times can I use chill touch ? Once per round or can I take all of those at touch of tax in one round?

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

Well, you can't use your shocking grasp in a spell storing weapon either. Spell-like abilities are not spells. You don't cast them, you activate them.

As for chill touch, you gain 1 touch per level each time you use it. You can make on touch when you activate the spell as a free action, and then you can use your iterative attacks to make your normal number of attacks per round on later turns.


Imbicatus wrote:

Well, you can't use your shocking grasp in a spell storing weapon either. Spell-like abilities are not spells. You don't cast them, you activate them.

As for chill touch, you gain 1 touch per level each time you use it. You can make on touch when you activate the spell as a free action, and then you can use your iterative attacks to make your normal number of attacks per round on later turns.

Son of a b*+*!. Well I am glad I learned this before buying a Spellstoring Weapon. Ugh. Now I dont even want major magic... I guess I could get vanish ... or I could just go back to bleeding attack ..,


Roboctopus wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

Well, you can't use your shocking grasp in a spell storing weapon either. Spell-like abilities are not spells. You don't cast them, you activate them.

As for chill touch, you gain 1 touch per level each time you use it. You can make on touch when you activate the spell as a free action, and then you can use your iterative attacks to make your normal number of attacks per round on later turns.

Son of a b&%++. Well I am glad I learned this before buying a Spellstoring Weapon. Ugh. Now I dont even want major magic... I guess I could get vanish ... or I could just go back to bleeding attack ..,

get shield its +4 ac and immunity to magic missile which is really handy


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Get the feat Bookish Rogue and a spellbook, and you can keep changing the Minor Magic and Major Magic spells as your needs change.

Scarab Sages

Roboctopus wrote:
Son of a b~+#%. Well I am glad I learned this before buying a Spellstoring Weapon. Ugh. Now I dont even want major magic... I guess I could get vanish ... or I could just go back to bleeding attack ..,

Chill Touch as Major Magic is still totally worthwhile, for 3 x level touch attacks per day... Or learn to UMD a 5th-level wand of it. As far as I can see, the charges have no expiration date, so you could conceivably cast it in advance and carry it around with you until you need it. Try not to shake any hands in the meantime.

Shield and Vanish are also good choices.


Catharsis wrote:
Roboctopus wrote:
Son of a b~+#%. Well I am glad I learned this before buying a Spellstoring Weapon. Ugh. Now I dont even want major magic... I guess I could get vanish ... or I could just go back to bleeding attack ..,

Chill Touch as Major Magic is still totally worthwhile, for 3 x level touch attacks per day... Or learn to UMD a 5th-level wand of it. As far as I can see, the charges have no expiration date, so you could conceivably cast it in advance and carry it around with you until you need it. Try not to shake any hands in the meantime.

Shield and Vanish are also good choices.

I feel conflicted on Chill for a number of reasons.

1. Character is NG and exceptionally good aligned. Necromancy feels out of place
2. Hes a fetchling and has cold resist and shadowy stuff so maybe its NOT out of place
3. Casting offensive spells feels counter intuitive to what Ive been doing. (It made sense when I thought I could use spell-storing)

I guess I need to take some white guy thinking time on this.

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