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A Witch with a Deity as a Patron


Rules Questions

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If a Witch has a Deity as a patron, would they qualify for feats that require the character receive spells from a deity, such as Weapon of the Chosen?

Thoughts?


It goes against the flavour of the class, but I don't see any significant problem with that. But the RAW isn't on your side.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

They actually have to worship the deity.


Yes. Looking for rules as written comments. Patrons give Witches spells but Weapon of the Chosen says they need to be granted. Since granted is not a term officially used, would most read it as divine spells from classes that require worship of deities?

It is an interesting feet chain but the requirements seems a little ambiguous.

Classes that can definitely use the feat:
Clerics, Oracles, Paladins

Divine casters who don't NEED to worship a deity are in question:
Hunters, Rangers, Shamans and Druids

Arcane caster gets spells from entity that could be a Deity are in question:
Witches

Has there been a ruling on this in PFS?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Um, no, the actual prerequisites are pretty unambiguous (and they don't use the word granted).

Prerequisite(s) wrote:
Weapon Focus with deity’s favored weapon, must worship and receive spells from a deity.

So Cleric, Paladin, Inquisitor, and Warpriest can use the Feat.

By RAW (and PFS) Witches, Oracles, Rangers, Hunters, Shamans, and Druids can not take the Feat.


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Rysky wrote:

Um, no, the actual prerequisites are pretty unambiguous (and they don't use the word granted).

Prerequisite(s) wrote:
Weapon Focus with deity’s favored weapon, must worship and receive spells from a deity.

So Cleric, Paladin, Inquisitor, and Warpriest can use the Feat.

By RAW (and PFS) Witches, Oracles, Rangers, Hunters, Shamans, and Druids can not take the Feat.

I disagree on one point. If another divine spellcaster is using a spell list modified by their deity (such as a Gorum-worshipping Druid casting iron body), I would consider them to be receiving spells from that deity.


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A witch does receive spells from its patron. And if that patron was a deity, then the witch would be gaining spells from a deity.


PFS ruled that Oracles can't use that feat? Thanks for the PFS ruling but that seems a bit off. Also archetypes like Divine Hunter seem like the feat would make sense RAW & RAI. There are a number of others as well.

So um, yes, pretty ambiguous to me, but will follow PFS's lead.


I'm a little unsure if a deity can officially be a patron though. Is there a rules quote for that.


AFAIK, deities are not on the list of Witch patrons.
Also, a great divider between the Witch and other casters, such as Druid, Hunter, Oracle, Ranger and Shaman, is that the Witch is an arcane spellcaster. - There are obscure rules that can be interpreted to be deities granting these classes spells, not the Witch, though.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
The Sideromancer wrote:
Rysky wrote:

Um, no, the actual prerequisites are pretty unambiguous (and they don't use the word granted).

Prerequisite(s) wrote:
Weapon Focus with deity’s favored weapon, must worship and receive spells from a deity.

So Cleric, Paladin, Inquisitor, and Warpriest can use the Feat.

By RAW (and PFS) Witches, Oracles, Rangers, Hunters, Shamans, and Druids can not take the Feat.

I disagree on one point. If another divine spellcaster is using a spell list modified by their deity (such as a Gorum-worshipping Druid casting iron body), I would consider them to be receiving spells from that deity.

*nods*

I was referring to unmodified classes, the Divine Tracker Archetype for Rangers would be another that I say could access it.


Off topic, but the oracle does receive spells from their deity. They just don't receive spells exclusively from their deity. The actual book makes this a lot more clear than the prd.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Where does it say the receive spells from the Deity they worship?


Melkiador wrote:
I'm a little unsure if a deity can officially be a patron though. Is there a rules quote for that.

What a Patron is seems to be very murky, but generally points to some powerful entity. I don't see why that can't be a deity. More likely a lesser deity than a major member of pantheon based on the flavor. If PFS is saying it is not legal then at best there will be table variation, and that can be a pain.

Rysky wrote:
Where does it say the receive spells from the Deity they worship?

Where does it say that Paladins receive spells from a deity they worship? Oracle comes closer to spelling that out than Paladins. Very odd that PFS has ruled that Paladins can use that feat and not Oracles. Makes me question how they came to their decisions about Weapon of the Chosen.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Because Paladins can worship Deities that alter their Codes and add spells to their spelllists. And then there's this:

Divine Bond (Sp) wrote:

Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin forms a divine bond with her god. This bond can take one of two forms. Once the form is chosen, it cannot be changed.


^On the other hand, Paladins don't get spells at all until 4th level, which is too long for a dip.

Now Cleric, on the other hand, gives you interesting options for a dip, and qualifies you for feats that require you to get spells from a deity (note that this guide is missing material from after part way through 2014, so other good options may exist). Warpriest also has this potential, but nobody seems to have written an analogous guide for dipping Warpriest, so you'd have to do some more research, but might be able to come up with equally interesting options.

Note that Weapon of the Chosen isn't going to be very good on a Witch (or any other 1/2 BAB class) past the first very small number of levels.


Rysky wrote:

Because Paladins can worship Deities that alter their Codes and add spells to their spelllists. And then there's this:

Divine Bond (Sp) wrote:
Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin forms a divine bond with her god. This bond can take one of two forms. Once the form is chosen, it cannot be changed.

The core paladin doesn't provide any alterations for the worship of specific deities based on codes. Sure it does in supplements but it is not required. Are you saying that if a Paladin doesn't have a code altered by a deity that they cannot take Weapon of the Chosen?

... while core Oracle has the following:

Oracle wrote:
These divine vessels are granted power without their choice, selected by providence to wield powers that even they do not fully understand. Unlike a cleric, who draws her magic through devotion to a deity, oracles garner strength and power from many sources, namely those patron deities who support their ideals. Instead of worshiping a single source, oracles tend to venerate all of the gods that share their beliefs.

There isn't anything that states that an oracle shouldn't or can't worship one god even though the tend to do otherwise. They definitely receive spells from Deities. The feat also doesn't call for class defining alterations to a class to define worship. Seems as if that is being read into the text where it doesn't exist. If the class or spell list needs to be altered because of a relationship with a deity then a core Witch (who chooses a deity as a patron) is also more likely to receive access to the feat than core Paladin.

We agree 100% that Paladin gets to pick Weapon of the Chosen as a feat. What I don't get is how these other examples seem to be so clear cut in the other direction.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

I was stating that Paladins having deities are the assumption, just like Inquisitors having Deities, but they don't have to. Deity specific codes continuing to be published backs that up, rather than refutes that.

Oracles do NOT get spells from their Deities. They can worship whoever they want but that doesn't mean they get their abilities from who they worship, they get their abilities from their Curse and Mystery. The whole point of the Oracle class is that they're not attached to Deities.

From what you quoted,

Quote:
oracles tend to venerate all of the gods that share their beliefs.

In game terms Venerate and Worship are two very different things. If you venerate a deity you do not get anything from them.

A Witch does not get spells from a Deity either, as evidenced by the fact that they're Arcane casters. They also can't pick Deities as their Patron, Patrons, like Mysteries, are themes, rather than beings. You can say that a Deity might influence either of those, but those Deities aren't the one supplying the spells. Which is what the feat requires.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Witches became Paladins so suddenly, I never saw it coming.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rysky wrote:

Um, no, the actual prerequisites are pretty unambiguous (and they don't use the word granted).

Prerequisite(s) wrote:
Weapon Focus with deity’s favored weapon, must worship and receive spells from a deity.

So Cleric, Paladin, Inquisitor, and Warpriest can use the Feat.

By RAW (and PFS) Witches, Oracles, Rangers, Hunters, Shamans, and Druids can not take the Feat.

Not to pick nits or anything, but Rangers and Druids can worship deities (pretty much every Druid we have at the table worships Gozreh).

The rest looks good. :-)


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captain yesterday wrote:
Witches became Paladins so suddenly, I never saw it coming.

At least they can Feather Fall at will with their Flight hexes. It will be less hurful when they start falling.


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The pain is half the fun of falling!

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
captain yesterday wrote:
Rysky wrote:

Um, no, the actual prerequisites are pretty unambiguous (and they don't use the word granted).

Prerequisite(s) wrote:
Weapon Focus with deity’s favored weapon, must worship and receive spells from a deity.

So Cleric, Paladin, Inquisitor, and Warpriest can use the Feat.

By RAW (and PFS) Witches, Oracles, Rangers, Hunters, Shamans, and Druids can not take the Feat.

Not to pick nits or anything, but Rangers and Druids can worship deities (pretty much every Druid we have at the table worships Gozreh).

The rest looks good. :-)

I never said they couldn't worship Deities. But unless they have an alternate ability that lets them get their spells from the Deity they worship then they can't take the feat.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Now, you're confusing me. My understanding was unless you were part of the Green Faith you did get your spells from a deity if you were a ranger or druid.

It doesn't matter though honestly, as druids and rangers aren't witches, so no point in this discussion here. :-)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Sowwy!

*rubs Cap'n's head*

Rangers, Druids, and Hunters work off of Nature Divine Magic, which is different than Cleric Divine magic.


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We'll see about that...

To the Core Rulebook!

I will have to disagree here, the CRB makes no distinction between divine magic cast by cleric or druid.

But, to each their own, it's not a big deal. :-)


We do agree that Paladins get the feat. However your reasoning that Paladins are simply assumed to gain powers from deities, but don't need to worship a deity just like other divine classes, but are just assumed to have access to the Weapon of the Chosen feat because of that basic assumption, seems in direct conflict. Oracles are in a similar boat.

Yes Oracles venerate deities but whether they do or don't the deities still give them power.

Quote:
oracles garner strength and power from many sources, namely those patron deities who support their ideals.

Just like the Paladin, they can choose to worship a deity or not. If they choose to worship a deity, they should have access to Weapon of the Chosen. If they only venerate deities in general, they do not.

I do understand the resistance of an arcane caster being granted spells like a divine caster, but that has always seemed to be the flavor of witches. Maybe 'given access to' is a better phrase than granted but it is still along the same vein. The dual nature is why it created a question for me that I wanted to pose to the community.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

That isn't the flavor of witches though. They get their powers from mysterious forces that inhabit small adorable animals.

If there was a deity patron in some book I don't know about then I'd agree, but as far as I know, there isn't. :-)


captain yesterday wrote:
That isn't the flavor of witches though. They get their powers from mysterious forces that inhabit small adorable animals.

Almost every deity has an associated animal though.


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Big powerful entity gives access to spells via a small adorable animal.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Melkiador wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
That isn't the flavor of witches though. They get their powers from mysterious forces that inhabit small adorable animals.
Almost every deity has an associated animal though.

Does it say they allow them to teach mortals how to cast arcane magic. :-)


captain yesterday wrote:

That isn't the flavor of witches though. They get their powers from mysterious forces that inhabit small adorable animals.

If there was a deity patron in some book I don't know about then I'd agree, but as far as I know, there isn't. :-)

There is no example of what a Patron is. Even if a patron was a powerful outsider or Devil, some of those are worshiped as deities.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well no, what I'm asking is if in say a player companion or Horror Adventures there is a patron- deity (must choose a deity) with a list of spells.

Without something like that, you're SOL because witches clearly cast arcane spells granted by adorable little animals and not divine magic granted by a deity.

Easy peasy. :-)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

For that matter, where is the feat from that you want to have. :-)


captain yesterday wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
That isn't the flavor of witches though. They get their powers from mysterious forces that inhabit small adorable animals.
Almost every deity has an associated animal though.
Does it say they allow them to teach mortals how to cast arcane magic. :-)

Patrons (who could also be a deity) literally do give mortals access to arcane spells.

captain yesterday wrote:
For that matter, where is the feat from that you want to have. :-)

I don't want the feat for any build. Just thought it could be interesting for a gish Witch.

Weapon of the Chosen wrote:

Prerequisite(s): Weapon Focus with deity’s favored weapon, must worship and receive spells from a deity.

Benefit: As a swift action, you can call upon your deity to guide an attack you make with your deity’s favored weapon. On your next attack in that round with that weapon, your weapon counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction or striking an incorporeal creature. If your attack misses because of concealment, you can reroll your miss chance one time to see whether you actually hit.


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Rysky wrote:

Sowwy!

*rubs Cap'n's head*

Rangers, Druids, and Hunters work off of Nature Divine Magic, which is different than Cleric Divine magic.

James Jacobs takes it a step further than I do and says all divine casters who worship deities receive spells from them.

James Jacobs on Divine Magic and Deities

Just to say, there is some ambiguity.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

A witch isn't a divine caster. :-)


captain yesterday wrote:
A witch isn't a divine caster. :-)

Agreed, but the feat doesn't require the user to be a divine caster. They simply must worship a deity and receive spells from the deity.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Bladelock wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
A witch isn't a divine caster. :-)
Agreed, but the feat doesn't require the user to be a divine caster. They simply must worship a deity and receive spells from the deity.

Which Witches do not.

Patrons are not Deities.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Bladelock wrote:
Rysky wrote:

Sowwy!

*rubs Cap'n's head*

Rangers, Druids, and Hunters work off of Nature Divine Magic, which is different than Cleric Divine magic.

James Jacobs takes it a step further than I do and says all divine casters who worship deities receive spells from them.

James Jacobs on Divine Magic and Deities

Just to say, there is some ambiguity.

Huh, interesting. I don't really agree with that in regards to Nature casters but it's interesting all the same. JJ also doesn't care for people to use his positions in other agreements, unless the ruling or statement directly relates to Goalrion.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I wouldn't allow it.

The whole "A witch casts arcane spells" bit contradicts the "must cast spells drawn from your deity" part.

But, if someone does, more power to you.

In my mind at least, witch patrons aren't meant to be deities.

But that would also depend on the GM and the campaign they're trying to run. :-)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
captain yesterday wrote:

I wouldn't allow it.

The whole "A witch casts arcane spells" bit contradicts the "must cast spells drawn from your deity" part.

But, if someone does, more power to you.

In my mind at least, witch patrons aren't meant to be deities.

But that would also depend on the GM and the campaign they're trying to run. :-)

They did ask about PFS so I assumed that's what this is for.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Oh I know, just like to keep it in a general sense. :-)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Of course, that being said, taking a level in Warpriest or Cleric wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. :-)

Grand Lodge

Rysky wrote:
Bladelock wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
A witch isn't a divine caster. :-)
Agreed, but the feat doesn't require the user to be a divine caster. They simply must worship a deity and receive spells from the deity.

Which Witches do not.

Patrons are not Deities.

Can't they be? Genuinely wondering.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well that's the thing. You don't know, it's mysterious! You absolutely could worship a deity but you don't know if your deity is granting your spells through Mister Business or something else entirely.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Nitro~Nina wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Bladelock wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
A witch isn't a divine caster. :-)
Agreed, but the feat doesn't require the user to be a divine caster. They simply must worship a deity and receive spells from the deity.

Which Witches do not.

Patrons are not Deities.

Can't they be? Genuinely wondering.

Not really. The Witch descriptions refers to them as the unknown and a vague and mysterious force.

They're abstract concepts, not beings.

And again, they give Arcane spells.


captain yesterday wrote:
Of course, that being said, taking a level in Warpriest or Cleric wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. :-)

Agreed. If I was building this it would likely be with a dip and it would still be subpar to just going WarPriest. So your sentiment Captain is that Witch patrons can't be deities unless it is houseruled by the DM. I can't find anything to support that idea, and I generally disagree, but good to have your opinion. Thank you.

...and Rysky you feel that WotC only works for divine casters whose casting mechanic is somehow modified by the character's deity worship. Also good to have your opinion.

I think some thought needs to be given to what worshiping means as opposed to just following or venerating. Also to be considered is if spells need to be powered by a deity or if a deity giving an arcane caster access to spells is sufficient.


Rysky wrote:
Nitro~Nina wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Bladelock wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
A witch isn't a divine caster. :-)
Agreed, but the feat doesn't require the user to be a divine caster. They simply must worship a deity and receive spells from the deity.

Which Witches do not.

Patrons are not Deities.

Can't they be? Genuinely wondering.

Not really. The Witch descriptions refers to them as the unknown and a vague and mysterious force.

They're abstract concepts, not beings.

And again, they give Arcane spells.

Most games that I have seen use beings as Patrons. Whether they are demons, devils, fey, deities or some other outsider. I have never seen them played as abstract concepts even thought they often don't make game appearances. However I better understand where you are coming from now.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

That would do it then, Patrons aren't beings and have never been shown as such in games I've played or materials from Paizo that I've read. They're concepts like Time and Healing and Destruction, not beings that represent those concepts. They're closer to an area of study/universal force than a deity.

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