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So I'm trying to build a fighter for a friend that really wants to be a fighter, but we run into the problem of every idea they come up with can be done 2-4 times better by another class.
So, here's the Challenge: What is a PFS legal build or gimmick that only a fighter can pull off? If we're taking the worst saves and skills we might as well do something unique.
Have you got access to the Weapon masters Player companion and the Armour master Players companion? Both of those do a lot to make a fighter more interesting and competetive by giving option for their Armour and weapon training abilities
The big question is what you're expecting said Fighter to do. Do you want him to just be a giant beatstick? Do you want him to be able to disable/debuff enemies? Do you want him to have some sort of tanking gimmick?
I can tell you one thing that Fighters have a lot of, is feats. Some classes get extra feats, true, but the Fighter gets the most feats in the game.
Several things that are feat intensive that are neat, a Fighter can pull off, and then some. You just need to figure out what sort of niche you want your Fighter to bring to the table, and then configure some feat chains to accommodate that. The more feats required, the more likely that a Fighter can get it online before any other class does, if at all.
@ JohnHawkins: A lot of the Master Handbook options aren't PFS legal, so I wouldn't suggest them to him, even if they do give powerful options for him to utilize.
A human warpriest can have as many feats as a fighter with their FCB. If you want something unique it has to be based off weapon training, armor training, a lot of BAB-dependent feats (warpriests only get full BAB for selecting 1 feat per 3 levels) or possibly use of a tower shield.
Maybe if you're doing TWF and some combat maneuver chain at the same time?
BTW, why does he want to use the fighter class if he hasn't got a gimmick for it already? A slayer could generally have the same flavour only with enough skills to believably be a soldier or something.
A human warpriest can have as many feats as a fighter with their FCB. If you want something unique it has to be based off weapon training, armor training, a lot of BAB-dependent feats (warpriests only get full BAB for selecting 1 feat per 3 levels) or possibly use of a tower shield.
Maybe if you're doing TWF and some combat maneuver chain at the same time?
BTW, why does he want to use the fighter class if he hasn't got a gimmick for it already? A slayer could generally have the same flavour only with enough skills to believably be a soldier or something.
A warpriest burning his FCB for extra feats is going to be 2hp/level behind a fighter.
A warpriest burning his FCB for extra feats is going to be 2hp/level behind a fighter.But has 6 levels of spells, and swift action healing/buffing. Not a bad trade off. Can also activate wands and scrolls without UMD.
The spells are potent, but the swift healing/buffing is quite limited, especially in the early levels.
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Beatstick is how we're leaning, they want to "be a fighter, because a ranger isn't a fighter and neither is a vigalante. i want to fight so i want a fighter" Not really how I see it but whatever. I do have armor and weapon master handbooks though, in case that helps.
A rose by any other name smells just as sweet, right? If they don't understand that, then you're not going to change their mind, because they're deadset on treating the class names at face value instead of transmuting the flavor concept.
But, if he's deadset on being a Fighter, then optimization is quite simple for a beatstick, since all he has to worry about is Strength. Dexterity and Constitution and Wisdom help, but aren't an absolute priority. Intelligence and Charisma can be dumped. Also, go Human for the stat bonus, feat, and skill point, so he isn't a complete moron. Favored Class Bonus for Skills help too (he'll have 3 skill points to use).
For Point Buy, use the following:
Strength 19 (17 + 2)
Dexterity 14
Constitution 14
Intelligence 7
Wisdom 14
Charisma 7
Since you have Armor/Weapon Master's Handbook, Vanilla Fighter (no archetypes) would be the best choice. I'd just be careful and double-check to see which options within those books are PFS legal. There aren't many good Advanced Armor Training options, and several strong Advanced Weapon Training options aren't PFS legal. I don't play PFS, so I don't know what is all available for selection, so on that end, you'll have to play by ear, and if you find there are no good Advanced Armor/Weapon Training options, then take archetypes that substitute Armor/Weapon Training for other valuable benefits.
For equipment, I recommend using a two-handed weapon for simplicity and damage-stacking. The best choice of weapon is the Nodachi. 1D10 damage dice, Slashing and Piercing damage types, has Brace, 18-20/X2 critical range, and can be used with the Shield Brace feat, if he wants some more defenses. O-Yoroi/Tatami-Do armor is good for him, since he has a 14 Dexterity, though Armor Training does let him use some armor with less MDB without issue.
For feats, Power Attack is an absolute must if he wants to call himself a Fighter. Hammer the Gap helps, but not until later in the career, or until he benefits from Haste. Weapon Focus/Specialization and that stuff helps. Iron Will is important, since his Will Saves are crap; his Reflex sucks too, but he has hit points to spare for effects reliant upon it. Vital Strike feats are a trap, too. Full Attacks are the way to go. Anything else besides this stuff is his call.
For Level Up Stats, always put them into Strength. Since PFS caps off at 12th level, I opted to lower the Strength to 19 to shore up Wisdom and Dexterity some more (since they will be more important to you in a PFS career); otherwise, I would've suggested starting with 20 Strength, and lowering your Constitution/Dexterity/Wisdom a bit.
For Skills, Perception is always good, and you have a decent Wisdom modifier to make use of. Since he'll get Armor Training, Acrobatics will be valuable, and once again, he'll make great use of his decent Dexterity modifier for it. The last skill choice can be whatever he wants, since all he is, is a beatstick.
Lastly, for Traits, the cookie cutter Reactionary + Indomitable Faith traits are always good choices. Of course, traits that make certain skills he uses (*cough*Acrobatics and Perception*cough*) a Class Skill are also useful, so he doesn't feel like he's wasting his ranks.
@Darksol: If iron will and indomitable faith are already part of the build, why not just go half orc? -1 will for +2 fort and ref, plus stuff like darkvision and other useful racial features. Maybe if he wants to take intimidating prowess being a half orc would help compensate for the 7 cha.
If you want a TWF version: here's a lvl 13 damage dealer as a dump stat build: so it might not suit your purposes for PFS (because of the lvl 12 cap) or roleplaying in general because of dump stats, but just going for numbers and a full critical focus line, so that's why lvl 13:
Modify it for lower level cap as needed. Staggering critical can be replaced by a lower version if you want a payoff for critfishing at lvl 11, for example.
As mentioned by others the Armor Master/Weapon Master replacements really give the fighter class a leg-up, making vanilla fighter much more of a solid class choice than without.
This build has Good Attack Bonus, Good Damage, Good Saves, OK AC, OK DR, Bit of Critfishing fun, 30ft speed in heavy armor etc. It uses Focused weapon with kukris to get high damage light weapons averaging about 30 damage per hit, 6 attacks unhasted, and a 15-20 crit.
Other than that though, it's very generic: so you can modify bits and pieces pretty easily.
One caveat: I personally wouldn't play quite so dump-stat-y a build, because I like to have relevance out of combat too: but it shows you a basic combat-centric build.
Fighter Lvl 13
Current Stats 22/19/14/7/13/7 (includes belt of strength)
Attacks (no power attack)
+3 kukri +27/+22/+17 1d10+18 15-20 x2 Staggering Critical DC23
+3 kukri +27/+22/+17 1d10+18 15-20 x2 Staggering Critical DC23
Attacks (power attack -4/+8 enabled)
+3 kukri +23/+18/+13 1d10+26 15-20 x2 Staggering Critical DC23
+3 kukri +23/+18/+13 1d10+22 15-20 x2 Staggering Critical DC23
+4 flanking bonus
121hp (if you use favoured bonus and have 6hp/level)
AC31
DR 6/-
Fort +13
Ref +18
Will +14 (17 vs fear)
Init +6
Traits:
Reactionary
Indomitable faith
Feats:
Power Attack
Two Weapon Fighting
Double Slice
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Critical: Kukri
Critical Focus
Staggering Critical
Fighter Feats:
Advanced Weapon Training
Advanced Weapon Training
Weapon Focus: Kukri
Greater Weapon Focus: Kukri
Weapon Specialization: Kukri
Greater Weapon Specialization: Kukri
Outflank
Weapon Trainings:
Blades, Light +5
Focused Weapon Kukri
Fighter's Tactics
Advanced Weapon Training:
Armed Bravery
Fighters Reflexes (Blades, Light)
Advanced Armor Training:
Armored Juggernaut
Gear (138,116gp)
2 +3 Kukris
+3 Adamantine Full Plate
Gloves of Dueling
+3 cloak of resistance
+3 ring of protection
+3 amulet of natural armor
+4 Belt of Giant Strength
Thanks for the help guys, the "rose by another name" thing doesn't jive with this person, very hung up on the name. good thing she's pretty.
Anyhow, I think we might have the bones of something viable here - Splintering Weapon sounded cool so I might toss that in with something.
I'm reaching here, but what about a hybrid class that involves fighter? Would that sales pitch get you anywhere?
the "rose by another name" thing doesn't jive with this person, very hung up on the name.
I see two possible solutions here:
The first is to put a post-it note over the class section of her character sheet, write "Fighter" on the note and the actual class below. That way, your friend sees what she wants to see when looking at the character sheet; that the mechanics don't match the class name shouldn't matter for someone who apparently only cares about a single word and not at all about mechanics.The second is to tell her to grow the f$+& up. Seriously, that behaviour is rather immature. It's kinda like a child who insists that her character is a princess and not a queen because she's unable to not generalize what she sees in Disney movies and thus thinks it must be a universal law in every setting.
But, before you do either, make sure your statement was actually true, because I doubt that it is. I think it's very likely that she thinks that she needs to play the Fighter class to play the character she wants to play, even th9ough that's almost certainly not true. Tell her that the class is only a skeleton that can be fleshed out (and reflavored) to her liking. Tell her that her character can introduce himself/herself as a fighter regardless of the mechanical class he/she has. Paramount, ask her why she is so fixated on playing a Fighter! Seriously, we need more information to fix the actual problem.
@Darksol: If iron will and indomitable faith are already part of the build, why not just go half orc? -1 will for +2 fort and ref, plus stuff like darkvision and other useful racial features. Maybe if he wants to take intimidating prowess being a half orc would help compensate for the 7 cha.
Fortitude and Reflex Saves aren't really that important for a Fighter, since they already get good Fortitude Saves. Reflex isn't that big of a disabler, and usually is only used to mitigate damage.
He could just switch out Reactionary, and pick up Improved Initiative at a later date to compensate for the Initiative loss; he has the feats to spend, so why not?
Half Orc would trade out the +2 Intimidate for the bonus on saves that you're talking about, so you can't both have your cake and eat it too. Intimidating Prowess would help, but you're still dealing with the Charisma penalty. Sure, Cornugon Smash + Hurtful are good for a beatstick, but it's unreliable if not optimized towards it, which most beatsticks usually aren't (due to conflicting requirements of high Strength at the cost of Charisma and Intelligence). If he could use Wisdom in place of Charisma for Intimidate through a trait, he'd definitely be in business.
Darkvision can be acquired on Humans through substituting the skill point per level trait for it, so there isn't a real loss there, since he will only be losing the extra skill point that he could throw wherever he wanted.
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Derklord, i've tried all that, even built her a vigilante that TWFs very well - except she wanted to do it with longswords. so i found the sawtooth saber rules - but she doesn't know anything about weaponry and thought that was a lightsaber with teeth for about an hour before she told my why she didn't want to use them.
But now we've found something that might work for her - Child of Acavna and Amaznen. she gets to use two longswords (obsidian and blood crystal) and bust them over people's heads, then fix them with her one level 0 spell: mending. aside from a less impressive full attack it seems to hit what she wants. She isn't much for optimizing (as you might have guessed) so I'll just make it work with whatever race she fancies next. Build even gets to be simple - Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Splintering Weapon, Weapon Specialization - then the rest is whatever she wants if she even gets to a higher level because she finds level 4 to be really hard.
@Darksol: If iron will and indomitable faith are already part of the build, why not just go half orc? -1 will for +2 fort and ref, plus stuff like darkvision and other useful racial features. Maybe if he wants to take intimidating prowess being a half orc would help compensate for the 7 cha.Fortitude and Reflex Saves aren't really that important for a Fighter, since they already get good Fortitude Saves. Reflex isn't that big of a disabler, and usually is only used to mitigate damage.
He could just switch out Reactionary, and pick up Improved Initiative at a later date to compensate for the Initiative loss; he has the feats to spend, so why not?
Half Orc would trade out the +2 Intimidate for the bonus on saves that you're talking about, so you can't both have your cake and eat it too. Intimidating Prowess would help, but you're still dealing with the Charisma penalty. Sure, Cornugon Smash + Hurtful are good for a beatstick, but it's unreliable if not optimized towards it, which most beatsticks usually aren't (due to conflicting requirements of high Strength at the cost of Charisma and Intelligence). If he could use Wisdom in place of Charisma for Intimidate through a trait, he'd definitely be in business.
Darkvision can be acquired on Humans through substituting the skill point per level trait for it, so there isn't a real loss there, since he will only be losing the extra skill point that he could throw wherever he wanted.
Darkvision is obviously great to have on a martial, and I usually don't consider traits that add RP to be on the table. Of course, all that matters is what is allowed in the OP's game.
If OP's friend ends up using the righter build, consider asking the GM about switching to half orc. Your will save will lower by one, but the other upsides depend on what is allowed.
It's for PFS bro...
Mostly out of curiosity, what how did she answer the question "Why does it have to be a Fighter"?
Mostly out of curiosity, what how did she answer the question "Why does it have to be a Fighter"?
I believe this was already answered in a post:
they want to "be a fighter, because a ranger isn't a fighter and neither is a vigalante. i want to fight so i want a fighter"
Like I said, the player is too hung up on face value stuff and doesn't appear to conform to reflavoring/refluffing certain subjects. Maybe it's a PFS thing, because PFS doesn't allow refluffing of any kind. I don't know.
The funny thing is that, if they want to fight (which is the reason why they chose Fighter), they can be just about any class, because most every class can, and wants, to fight (as Combat is a major part of the game). They just fight in different manners.
Hell, even NPC classes can fight if optimized well enough, so why aren't they taking the NPC class (besides the factor that it's for PFS)?
By saying the word fighter you may have accidentally invoked the wrath of the entire internet. If you want to play a fighter, play one, they have the most robust options that can either become a very efficient consistent beat stick, or a very complex multifaceted expert of damage, maneuvers, or both. It all depends on how complicated YOU want it to be.
Seems like their mind will only be changed when they see a different class lay down more "fight" than they are doing...
Looking at Additional Resources the Armor Master: All feats in this book are legal for play except Mobile Stronghold and Unhindering Shield. The Weapon Master, all feats are legal except some style feats. These books are pretty wide open.
Two suggestions if they are stuck on fighter (either works with War priest due to only feats being needed).
1) Ranged thrower with vital strike, star toss style, and ranged feats. Probably not what he considers a "fighter", but I've enjoyed it more than a ranged barbarian.
2) a CMB master with combat patrol. If you allow one third party feat (Seize the opportunity by DreamScarredPress), he can make vital strikes of combat maneuvers instead of AoO. Greater trip and visions stomp along with out flank means he can get 2 AoO per trip and critical fish to help his allies get AoO.
3) he can sword and board fighter, which is probably the best option with weapon/armor training. Shield master makes it so he takes no penalties for two weapon fighting with his shield. If you allow DSP again, four feats (iron tortoise style) can get him shield bashes at one size larger, and two free attacks with his main weapon per round if he hits a shield bash. Another feat let's him use a spear or pole arm without penalty while using a shield for more variety of weapons.
Eldritch guardian + mauler familiar archetype!
With mutation warrior and the right teamwork feats, I'd put it in the running for the strongest non-spellcasting build in Pathfinder.
What fighter is usually best at is bringing the "feat chain combat styles" online faster than anyone else.
You can make a build very good at disarm and trip by level 6.
Or getting all the TWF feats very early along with the focus and specialization for the chosen weapon.
Taking a lot of the critical effect feats (eg sickening critical) earlier than anyone else.
Getting all the applicable archery feats sooner than anyone else.
The other thing fighter can allow is to use just your bonus feats for an easy style like THW power attack. This leaves all your regular feats for additional wierdness and/or flavor feats. Couple examples I've seen:
Intelligent Lore Warden reach fighter with regular feats for skill bonus feats and additional traits. Made him an adequate skill monkey and a decent martial weapon combatant.
Charismatic fighter bonus feats to THW and regular feats divided between eldritch heritage and familiar chains. Frontline combatant who covered scouting needs (familiar) and could fly (elderitch heritage wings).
Both were very successful and interesting.
Another option (really only useful if the two of you will usually be playing at the same table) is combat teamwork feats. This can give you either more offensive or defensive options/bonuses.