My question is regarding the specifics of some of the tricks. I'll copy and paste them here, before inquiring:
Commands:
Come (DC 15) The animal comes to you, even if it normally would not do so.
Heel (DC 15) The animal follows you closely, even to places where it normally wouldn’t go.
Attack (DC 20) The animal attacks apparent enemies. You may point to a particular creature that you wish the animal to attack, and it will comply if able. Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals. Teaching an animal to attack all creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks.
Down (DC 15) The animal breaks off from combat or otherwise backs down. An animal that doesn’t know this trick continues to fight until it must flee (due to injury, a fear effect, or the like) or its opponent is defeated.
Watch (DC 15): The animal can be commanded to keep watch over a particular area, such as a campsite, and raise an alarm if it notices any sizable or dangerous creature entering the area. This trick is often included in the Guarding purpose.
Guard (DC 20) The animal stays in place and prevents others from approaching.
Now, I've dug around for a topic like this, and most are old, or simply unclear in the responses. I would like clear and defined differences between certain commands.
For instance, why take 'Watch' when 'Guard' says it covers it, right? Well, why take 'come' if 'heel' will essentially cover that? An ACom with 2 int can only learn so many tricks, and with it taking a week of in-game time to train a pet, I'm trying to move as fast as I can.
Now, I'll spare you the long story of the Lunar Oracle taking a pet to help with DPS/being a tank, but that's the TL;DR bare bones of it. However! We are encountering a lot of social combat, and moving through major cities, as well. This wolf was picked up when I was level 3, so I didn't have any backstory time to have taught him tricks already. I've got his first two tricks he came with as attack, so he'll attack undead and other creepy things (zombies, skeletons, and vampires suck...no pun intended).
Now, I've taught him 'heel' because I thought it better than 'come' - it seems like both commands rolled into a better one, right? If I'm wrong, please hit me with examples. But this relates to my other inquiry, as well - why take 'down' if I can tell my pet to 'heel'? Does that work? What constitutes 'defeat'? ( Down - "...or its opponent is defeated") Is it when a combatant is dead? Unconscious? Putting its hands up in surrender? What does 'defeat' mean in reference to an animal with 2 int? I'm inclined to think either unconscious, or dead. But as we're moving through a lot of social circles, I don't always want my fancy gods-given pet to tear people's throats out every time we fight. I'd also rather not waste a week teaching it 'down' if I can teach it 'stay', for instance. Or 'guard'. Sometimes I can't take my BIG wolf into inns, and I don't want him wondering off to steal food, or eat someone's house cat, you know?
Thanks ahead of time for your insight! (And while I know a lot of this could be DM adjudication, I was hoping for a general consensus, or some rule that I've overlooked!)
The way I'm used to playing it, all tricks only work in a certain context.
"Heel" only works if the animal is already adjacent to you. To get it there, you might need to use the "come" trick. The rules also seem to imply that no other command than "down" will make the animal break off combat.
It takes a hefty trick tax to have a well-behaved pet.
Forseti is right about heel only working when the animal is next to you. If it is not next to you, you need to use come. If the animal is not near you and you give it the heel command it keeps the same distance from you.
Watch and guard are also different. Guard means the animal stays in one place and may attack if something approaches. You can also have the animal guard a specific person or place. Watch allows the animal to move around and it will give warning when something approaches. It also useful for covering larger area’s like a building or such. With watch as soon as the animal notices something it lets you know. With Guard it attacks only when the creature is close and does not give warning.
Down means the animal immediately breaks off attacking and does nothing else. Forseti is probably right about this also. But even if you can use come to get the animal to come to you it may still attack before doing so. Down is also good for when you want your animal to stop attacking but not to move. Don’t forget if he moves away from his target he provokes an attack of opportunity. It is also good for when you want to have it stop attacking but be able to attack on command.
All of the commands are slightly different. While you may be able to use one for a similar purpose of another there are still differences.
My question is regarding the specifics of some of the tricks. I'll copy and paste them here, before inquiring:
** spoiler omitted **
Now, I've dug around for a topic like this, and most are old, or simply unclear in the responses. I would like clear and defined differences between certain commands.
For instance, why take 'Watch' when 'Guard' says it covers it, right? Well, why take 'come' if 'heel' will essentially cover that? An ACom with 2 int can only learn so many tricks, and with it taking a week of in-game time to train a pet, I'm trying to move as fast as I can.
The guard trick does not cover the watch trick as well. The Guarding general purpose does. Tricks are learned either individually (the ones you listed in your post) or by package. "Guard" is a single trick, "Guarding" is a general purpose made up of several tricks (specifically the attack, defend, down, and guard tricks; wherever the "Watch" trick comes from, it isn't in the core rulebook Guarding general purpose).
HERP. Yes, the general purpose - I misread that bit about Guard/watch. And thanks for the clarification between the two. I'd sort of assumed 'watch' was a bit less...effective than 'guard', I suppose. But it seems both have their merits, depending on what you're going for.
As for 'heel,' I guess I hadn't realized that it didn't necessarily bring the animal to you, since it says 'follows you closely.' I assumed this meant it came to your side and followed along dutifully.
Forseti wrote:
"The rules also seem to imply that no other command than "down" will make the animal break off combat."
Yeah, I was wondering, I suppose, if I could rig it a little to avoid being forced into taking 'down' right away. Alas! Seems I'm trying to be clever with something that just doesn't work that way.
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
"Don’t forget if he moves away from his target he provokes an attack of opportunity. It is also good for when you want to have it stop attacking but be able to attack on command."
That's a fair point as well - though I doubt I'll have him stop attacking unless a combatant is surrendering, as my paladin twin would be mighty mad if my wolf killed someone who was no longer fighting (woops). But yeah, using 'come' to have him stop attacking could be a huge waste of movement if I want him to switch targets as well. Which begs the question of, if I do want him to switch targets...do I just tell him to attack another enemy, or would I need 'down' before I can tell him to target swap? Or would that be up to the DM/situation at hand, you think?
Another question of mine is on these 'general purpose' tricks. It seems like it takes just as long as it normally would to teach the ACom all the tricks, but you only roll once for all of them after that amount of weeks. This seems detrimental, rather than beneficial, to me. What if you spend 6 weeks training the Acom...only to fail that one roll with a fateful 1 on animal handling? Is there an upside to the general purpose groups of tricks that I'm missing?
Was there a consensus on what 'defeat' means, or do we think that's simply situational/up to the DM, as well? I'll admit that a 2 int animal going off of instinct isn't the smartest...but dogs/wolves can read body language pretty well - if someone drops weapons and clearly looks frightened, or is no longer acting hostile...would the animal attack? Would that be considered 'defeated'? To play devil's advocate, in the heat of battle, a 'surrendering' enemy might not be noticed by an angry animal. (Maybe I'm nitpicking, haha!)
These days, I only play Pathfinder in PFS, so my answers are largely based on that context. Let me point out to you that Animal Companion tricks are going to be subject to a TREMENDOUS amount of GM discretion. If you are playing with a single GM all the time, I strongly urge you to sit down with the GM outside of an actual gaming session and work through the Tricks so that you two are on the same page about how/when things will work.
Regarding Tricks in general. Not all Tricks are going to be equally useful all the time. There's nothing wrong with Tricks having situations in which they are interchangeable or overlap based on context.
1. Heal vs Come. One has to assume that all companions will generally their masters without command. In addition, nothing in the rules explicitly supports the notion that an animal has to be next to you for Heel to work, so any such requirement would be a house rule. If that were a requirement, then the rules would say it. If I were hard pressed to differentiate between the two, then it would be as such:
Come - used when you want the animal to come to you when it would otherwise not. An example is you want the animal to come straight towards you and the move would require it suffer AoO's or suffer damage from some effect.
Heel - When you want the animal to follow you closely (e.g. keep a close proximity at all times and arguably follow in your foot steps) when it would otherwise not. An example would be using Stealth, you'd want the animal to stay right on your heals and the animal might be pulled towards some scent or other distraction. The animal has to follow you through some danger e.g. AoO, area effect that might cause damage, raging river, or into an environment that it is not familiar with.
In all my years of playing PFS, I've never seen a GM require a character issue these commands or seen a GM require player to use/roll these Tricks
2. Watch vs Guard. I think others have covered this. However, there is no clarity on what it means to "prevent others from approaching." Does this mean the animal attacks? Does it means it simply stands in the spot using Total Defense? Both could be legitimate expectations based on the situation. That's why it's very important you talk with the GM before the game about how these things can work.
3. Down - As others have noted, this trick seems to imply that you need it and that Heel, Come, etc aren't substitutes. As a GM, I allow any animal given the Down command to 5' step back and/or go Total Defense if still faced with combat. Once again, not all GMs are going to agree with that. Figure that out ahead of time.
Let me also recommend that you use one of the ability increases to raise INT and put a skill point in Linguistics to teach it a language your character speaks. Common is a good choice if you want to use it as a spy. The point of doing this is that a GM is more likely to be lenient and open-minded if your animal is 50% smarter and understands speech. But....talk about this before doing it, so you know what to expect.
In my experience, GMs will tend to be conservative when put on the spot during a game, so avoid putting your GM on the spot. Ask these questions when there is no stress or immediate impact based on the answer.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
If my companion creature has been individually trained in all of the tricks that come in a general purpose package, can I not consider it to have that general purpose?
If I choose to train a companion creature in a general purpose, can I not then train it in additional individual tricks (provided it still has trick slots remaining)?
Guard was the watchdog trick for 15 years before watch came along so, yes. That one is incredibly redundant.
Come wouldn't be heel IF most people didn't have a free action critter command. You'd have to walk 30 feet, move action here boy, walk 30 feet move action here boy... but with most pet classes having a free action to give a command they work out to be the same thing.
