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I'm going to be in a kingmaker game my friend is running soon and I wanted to play a martial character that would eventually take the role of Ruler. I know that Bard/Sorcerer/Oracle are the go to choices for this, but I really wanted to have a warlord feel to my character, sadly pathfinder doesn't take to kindly to the idea of Charisma martials that aren't Paladins.
After too many hours of research this is what I came up with:
Order of the Cockatrice Half-Orc Cavalier
(20-pt Buy): Str - 17 (15 + 2), Dex - 12, Con - 13, Int - 12, Wis - 11, Cha - 14
lvl - Feats
1 - Persuasive, Outflank (Tactician)
2 - Dazzling Display (Order)
3 - Power Attack
4 -
5 - Mounted Combat
6 - Ride-By-Attack (Bonus)
7 - Leadership
Traits - Bastard (Kingmaker Player's Guide), Courageous (Combat)
Skills - Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive, and split rest between Ride and Handle Animal
It still feels too lackluster. Maybe it's just the power-gamer in me, but I feel like this character won't be able to hold their own, especially at higher levels. So I'm in need of build advice, I'm willing to change what I must, but with a few caveats:
Core Concepts - Things I Can't Change
- Is a Half-Orc: Being a Half-Orc Warlord sounds awesome to me and my DM has made a few concessions in the campaign to make this work, so I'm hesitant to change it. I could be willing to make a Human with Orc heritage however (Such as from the Arcane Heritage Feat), as my character is more of a 1/4th-Orc than 1/2-Orc
- Cannot be a Good Alignment: This is a campaign rule, our DM wanted us to be on the "Selfish" part of the alignment spectrum. I'm leaning towards NE, personally.
- Can give a bard a run for her money on Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive: I want to get really into the political intrigue aspect of running an empire, so this seems mandatory.
- Is a Martial Character: This is just the character I want to play, so any class that gets 6th or 9th level spells are out.
Sidenote: I'd rather not play a Skald. I dunno, the whole musician king just feels off to me, which is why I don't want to play a bard. I'd also like to stray from Anti-Paladin, as it lacks the same nuance in judgement calls the Paladin does that is often required of a Ruler.
- Has at least a 14 Charisma: I can't dump this stat or divert skills away from it, I want to be the Ruler so this is sadly a mandatory stat.
- No 3rd party material: Though I think I could finagle my DM into using old versions of classes/feats
Bonus: I'd rather not min-max on traits, as I feel those should really be used to define a character instead, but if I have to change them to make it work, then I will.
I'm open to anything else, at other points I was into Ranger but they lacked the necessary social skills (and I wan't too keen on the Dandy Archetype), I also toyed with the idea of a Rogue that goes into Noble Scion, but that seemed meh as well. Swashbuckler was a consideration at one point too, but that's just a bad class...
Maybe it's just me, but when I read 'half-orc warlord' I think of a barbarian or a bloodrager, not a cavalier. If you want a more social barbarian look up the savage technologist archetype. An id rager bloodrager can be impressive with skills and weird abilities. Either class has mounted archetypes if that was something else you wanted.
sadly pathfinder doesn't take to kindly to the idea of Charisma martials that aren't Paladins.
The following come to my mind:
* Bloodrager
* Summoner (probably with synthesist archetype)
* Eldritch knight, based on sorcerer
Beside that, there are now some feats based on Cha, to give you supernatural powers. Hence they encourage good Cha:
* Eldritch Heritage line
* Raging Blood
* Draconic Heritage
Battle Cry might fit also.
And Kingmaker is rather easy by default. I don't know whether your GM is up to significantly strengthen the encounters - if not, I wouldn't care too much about PC power.
And Kingmaker is rather easy by default. I don't know whether your GM is up to significantly strengthen the encounters - if not, I wouldn't care too much about PC power.
Well that's good to hear, I feel like I can relax a little on the optimization then.
Barbarian/Bloodrager was near the top of the list when going over ideas, but the lack of a lot of the social class skills left something to desired. Savage Technologist could definitely be a solid choice and we're close enough to Numeria to maybe have tech come into play too (I know my DM loves tech from Iron Gods so it's definitely possible.)
I gave the fey-archetype summoner some thought, because I know fey come in at some point, but summoner still feels to casty. I had more of a "Take the land by the sword" type of conqueror in mind than "Take the land by my six sharpened squid appendages" conqueror lol.
I'm not super attached to a mount/animal companion, so I can go either way on that.
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It doesn't really scream 'warlord', but I'd like to contest the idea that Swashbuckler is a bad class. At least for low-levels, it's very nice. Surprisingly good defenses for a martial, with both bonuses to saves and parry to avoid melee damage. Anyway ...
For that warlord feeling, you could aim for the Battle Herald prestige class. It's supposed to be one of few worthwhile prestige classes out there. Battle Herald has a nice guide.
I know you said you didn't want a Bard, but you can go 4 levels of Cavalier and just dip Bard for a single level. Or you can find another way to qualify for Battle Herald. There are several ways of getting Inspire Courage and a few for Challenge. The guide lists these.
One way to qualify for Battle Herald is to go Brawler (Exemplar) which grants you Inspire Courage. For Challenge, you go Variant Multiclass cavalier.
Your not going to give a bard a run for its money on Social skills. I hate to break it to you they are masters at it. But that does not mean you can not be king.
I recommend a Bloodrager.
I would build to the 14 Cha but you can do well With intimidate on a half-orc Bloodrager. You can take a trait for Diplomacy or Bluff.
If your roll for social skill fails...switch to sword diplomacy and cut your enemies to ribbons like a Orc would. Words are for weaklings anyways...be a king and rule with Fear of displeasing your king. Like Khal Drogo ruled his people.
I did this in Skulls and Shackles. I was not Captian I let the Druid have it and he knew it. He was captain by title only always making sure he kept the 1 man army pleased. I wanted to be Pirate King and took the Throne by force and anyone who wanted it, could try me, but all ended up dead at my feet. Not all Kings rule with pretty words but by might and power. But I did s$+$ that was pure evil and put fear into everyone.
If you want a martial face, and don't want to be good (so no Paladin), the two natural options that spring to mind are:
--Swashbuckler (Noble Fencer): A full BAB class with 4 skill points/lvl, the class skills you want, and the awesome Social Panache ability which allows you to add 1d6 boosts to Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate and Sense Motive checks.
--Bloodrager (Urban Bloodrager): A full BAB class with 4 skill points/lvl, and it gains some of the class skills that you want. Probably the best "face" option in the Barbarian/Bloodrager cluster. Not as good a "face" as a Noble Fencer Swashbuckler, but a pretty good fit with "Orcish Warlord".
You could go with a LE Tyrant Antipaladin. Or you could go with Bard/Skald and fluff your Perform (Oratory) to be barking out orders and "motivational" phrases to your allies in combat, and making megalomaniacal speeches out of it. He can still be a man of simple words, but simple words can be perfectly effective if they're the right words, delivered in a properly menacing manner.
I actually like to refluff the Chelish Diva for this sort of character.
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Now, I don't know Kingmaker because I'm somewhat new to Pathfinder in general. HOWEVER, I would say that there's one very good class for becoming a ruler without having that restrict him, having a bunch of social skills and being a Charismatic Martial.
Vigilante.
I'm sure you could find plenty of use for Dual Identity, for starters, and between Renown and Social Grace he could possible even give a Bard a run for his money in certain areas. Add some Psychometrist with an Enchantment Implement and there's no-one who can resist your wiles, even though you'll never cast a single spell. That'll make you a little more Int-based, but I assume that you'll want that for the skills anyway.
Perhaps VMC some Bard or Cavalier to taste, and you can even get the Mounted Fury archetype if you want.
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If you have the Villain Codex there's the Seasoned Commander Fighter Archetype, it gives you a greater skills per level while also making sense motive and Diplomacy class skills. It also grants access to the cavaliers tactician ability, in exchange for armour training, and a martial variant of the Bards various 'inspire' performance abilities which replace weapon training.
In regards to Bluff I would say take the Fast talker trait to make it a class skill but only if you want your character to be the cunning ruler rather than an honest one.
Full-BAB classes multiclass pretty well. A dip into Swashbuckler could get you the class skills you need, after which you can focus on what you really want to be.
Also, note that Kingmaker tends to be a 'one fight a week' sort of game, unless the GM is making a lot of changes, so you don't have to worry too much about running out of Panache, Rage, ki, or whatever.
Overwhelming Soul Elemental Annihilator with Weapon Finesse gives you dex on attack, charisma for damage. Take a trait for charisma on saves vs. charms and compulsions. You get bonus feats that ignore pre-reqs, so you can ignore strength and still get Power Attack. It's a good switch-hitter, and if you pick earth as your element, you get some nice DR. With your free feats, you can take Bard VMC to be more knowledgeable and inspiring.
Alternatively, the Insinuator Antipaladin is much more flexible in its code than regular, and can use "become/stay king" as carte blanche to cover almost any code infractions. You get to muck about with planar politics too, getting power from various outsider sources.
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LE antiapaladin tyrant is the way to go. You can make your saves high by boosting charisma. You just cant beat a bard.
Drop intimadating and weapon familiarity to get burning assurance and fey thoughts. More class skills and a little boost. Ditch orc ferocity for sacred tatto and get fates favored as a trait. Your save are sky high. But we can get up to more shennagins. Get noble scion of war. Iniative is now charisma based. When you smite them they wi die. But if you dip one level of oracle and talk like a political candidate you can get the legalistic curse.
You cant lie without being sickened. You can use it as short range divination if you make sure you have an escape clause. You can be widely known as trustworthy (good in ruler) but you can still deceive.
But the best part is going nature or lore and getting sidestep secret. Cha to ac and reflex saves. You get a spattering of low level spells. Command is great and fits with the theme of a warlord whos orders you just cant resist.
So charisma can eat all of the points that wouldve gone into dex. Your spellcasting is a little better. If your dm will let you use the guilds from ultimate magic you can get good spellcasting.
So heavily armed and moderately armored antipaladin who shouts unbreakable commands. Sound good?
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One way to qualify for Battle Herald is to go Brawler (Exemplar) which grants you Inspire Courage. For Challenge, you go Variant Multiclass cavalier.
My god, you are a godsend. This is exactly what I'm looking for, Thank you!
If your roll for social skill fails...switch to sword diplomacy and cut your enemies to ribbons like a Orc would. Words are for weaklings anyways...be a king and rule with Fear of displeasing your king.
That's the plan so far, though I do plan for more intrigue than brutal intimidation. Tyrants don't have the greatest lifespans...and it's more fun (personally) to run the gamut of social skills. I like having a tool kit I can pull from, rather than be a one-trick pony, even if that trick is really good.
Now, I don't know Kingmaker because I'm somewhat new to Pathfinder in general. HOWEVER, I would say that there's one very good class for becoming a ruler without having that restrict him, having a bunch of social skills and being a Charismatic Martial.
Vigilante.
Definitely one of the best options. It was also up there for me, but I wasn't huge fan of having separate secret identities, I imagine him more of an ambitious glory hound.
If you have the Villain Codex there's the Seasoned Commander Fighter Archetype, it gives you a greater skills per level while also making sense motive and Diplomacy class skills. It also grants access to the cavaliers tactician ability, in exchange for armour training, and a martial variant of the Bards various 'inspire' performance abilities which replace weapon training.
Sadly I do not, but that does sound like what I'm looking for. Is there a open resource version of it somewhere?
From all the advice I've narrowed my options down to:
Cavalier 2/Exemplar(Brawler) 3 into Battle Herald
Savage Technologist Barbarian
or Urban Destined Bloodrager
I'm not sure if my DM will allow VMC, but if he does, then that definitely adds more options
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Definitely one of the best options. It was also up there for me, but I wasn't huge fan of having separate secret identities, I imagine him more of an ambitious glory hound.Now, I don't know Kingmaker because I'm somewhat new to Pathfinder in general. HOWEVER, I would say that there's one very good class for becoming a ruler without having that restrict him, having a bunch of social skills and being a Charismatic Martial.
Vigilante.
Hmm, I see. You could also flavour it as a non-secret; everyone knows, on an intellectual level, that the powerful warlord and the charismatic king-to-be are the same person, but it's like a switch is flipped between their personalities when he has to get down to business.
TO DEFEAT. THE HUN.
Vigilantes can also make great glory-hounds, especially if you add on some VMC Order of the Flame Cavalier. Nothing says glory-hound like creating a whole new persona because your awesomeness can't fit into one role and you need to be good at everything. If you take Renown, this just gets more ridiculous. Plus you can also have him have his own noble house immune to divination and a network of associates for when he needs to get the dirt on his political and physical opponents.
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How does your GM feel about third-party material? Legendary Vigilantes includes some additional options for the class, including an archetype that trades out all of the secret identity stuff for an extra skill point. It can be tougher to find good social talents with this in my experience but it's something worth looking into.
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+1 for the vigilante.
Avoid the secrecy aspect, and just play up the dual nature of a warlord ruler. A magnanimous and righteous ruler to his people, a creature of nightmare and terror on the battlefield.
Have your horned battle helmet sit beside you on a pedestal while you adjudicate fairly the problems of your people, a grim reminder of the force of nature you become when pushed too far.
EDIT: The Faceless Enforcer might be useful in achieving this.
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I know you said you did not want to play a Skald but honestly this may be the best choice. Take Perform Oratory and Perform Percussion. You are not so really a musician you give speeches. If you don’t want to use a drum for the percussion, pound on your shield with a weapon. Max out Perform Oratory and take skill focus in it. With a 14 CHA at 7th level you will have a +15 in all three skills.
Use your spells to boost your information and deception as well as to boost your command abilities. Clarion Call, See Alignment, Undetectable Alignment, Heroism , Misdirection and Scrying will all be useful to a king.
But the ability to allow your whole army to become enraged is probably the best reason to go with a Skald. Nothing says Orc Warlord than a raging horde of berserkers.
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Hmm, I see. You could also flavour it as a non-secret; everyone knows, on an intellectual level, that the powerful warlord and the charismatic king-to-be are the same person, but it's like a switch is flipped between their personalities when he has to get down to business.Definitely one of the best options. It was also up there for me, but I wasn't huge fan of having separate secret identities, I imagine him more of an ambitious glory hound.Now, I don't know Kingmaker because I'm somewhat new to Pathfinder in general. HOWEVER, I would say that there's one very good class for becoming a ruler without having that restrict him, having a bunch of social skills and being a Charismatic Martial.
Vigilante.
Apparently this was done occasionally in the more formal areas of medieval Europe. There were often very elaborate protocols regarding how many retainers a king had to bring or what ceremonies were required when he arrived in a new place. It could get quite expensive and time-consuming. So they would come up with a name for a military officer or minor noble and travel under that name when they wanted to dispense with the protocols and travel in a much lighter and faster (and cheaper) fashion. Everyone knew it was really the king and would defer to him, but simply calling him "Captain Sigfreid" instead of "Your Highness" meant the more exhausting formalities could be ignored.
So in your Kingmaker game you could have the very elegant and refined Grand Prince Alexis as your royal identity and travel as the hardened warrior "Lieutenant Xander" when you want to go adventuring.
We played the first two books of Kingmaker, and we had a cavalier/fighter be our ruler. I GMed the first book, and played a dwarf barbarian/magus with 6 Charisma in book 2. Apparently untrained Diplomacy checks can be used as agro. ;-)
The good news is, you can actually use mounted combat in Kingmaker. The cavalier was VERY effective. I don't know if he had a lot of social skills, but he just roleplayed a bully and got $#!+ done! Bully might be a bit of a misnomer. He was just very very confident.
How about a Warpriest of Desna with the Divine Fighting Technique: Way of the Shooting Star feat? Lets you use Cha for hit and damage with a Star Knife, which is your favored weapon so its damage scales with your level.
Pretty sure that won't work for the OP since Desna is Good.
Wow I didn't know those archetypes stacked. Is it even possible to make that build with the overwhelming soul being as weird as it is.Overwhelming Soul Elemental Annihilator with Weapon Finesse gives you dex on attack, charisma for damage. Take a trait for charisma on saves vs. charms and compulsions. You get bonus feats that ignore pre-reqs, so you can ignore strength and still get Power Attack. It's a good switch-hitter, and if you pick earth as your element, you get some nice DR. With your free feats, you can take Bard VMC to be more knowledgeable and inspiring.
Yep! Overwhelming Soul was actually designed to stack with Blood Kineticist so that you could give them to vampires, and as a result it's a very stackable archetype. (Usually just conflicts on class skills changes.)
They even have some synergy- Overwhelming Soul is bad in part because a lot of utility talents require burn that you now can't provide, while Elemental Annihilator trades them out for more combat power.
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How about a Warpriest of Desna with the Divine Fighting Technique: Way of the Shooting Star feat? Lets you use Cha for hit and damage with a Star Knife, which is your favored weapon so its damage scales with your level.Pretty sure that won't work for the OP since Desna is Good.
Oops, missed that. Here are a few other potential Cha based character related things.
Scaled Fist monk archetype replaces monks wisdom related ability with Charisma.
Eldritch Scion Magus archetype swaps a lot of int based stuff for Cha (Makes it more like a sorcerer instead of wizard).
There are a couple feats of note.
Divine Protection gives your Cha bonus to saves 1/day.
Noble Scion of War gives Cha to initiative.
How about ghost rider, Order of the Beast cavalier? Frightful Gaze, Ghost Mount (simplifies most of the logistical issues of having a mount), Wild Empathy, Wild Mount Shape (can take dragon form at 15th level), mount gains water walk, air walk, and flight at certain levels. Take Eldritch Heritage (Ectoplasm) for an entangling SLA that works vs. incorporeal foes; Improved Eldritch Heritage can be used to gain the Ectoplasmic Form ability.
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I know you said you don't want to but Skald sounds like it is the best option for what you're looking for (outside of it being a skald)
Scaled Fist UMonk would make you a full bab martial with charisma to use as the face.
Bloodrager would be another martial CHA caster, but not quite as good with the skill points I think.
Vigilante has some good skill points and social talents.
If you can use third party stuff, the Warlord from Path of War is a fun charisma based martial class with a mix of striker and support abilities.
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I really appreciate all of the really solid advice so far, I'll try to post the build soon (I think I'm going to go with Battle Herald, but Vigilante is up there.)
How about a Warpriest of Desna with the Divine Fighting Technique: Way of the Shooting Star feat? Lets you use Cha for hit and damage with a Star Knife, which is your favored weapon so its damage scales with your level.Pretty sure that won't work for the OP since Desna is Good.
True but someone else could stumble upon this forum and find that build useful. And tangential builds could always lead to an interesting choice that no one had thought of, so I appreciate it all the same.
Late to the party, but there's also a Gunslinger archetype (Mysterious Stranger?) that uses your Charisma instead of Wisdom for calculating grit.
So far this is the build I went with (Up to level 7) Edit: I swallowed my pride and dipped bard a little for battle herald. The +2 Ref/Will and unimpeded Cavalier levels were just too good to throw away.
Order of the Cockatrice Cavalier 4, Bard 1, Battle Herald 2
Str 18, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 14
Feats (1st) Persuasive, (Tactician) Horde Charge, (Order) Dazzling Display, (3rd) Power Attack, (5th) Lingering Performance, (7th) Leadership (Score: 10)
Skills Bluff +12, Diplomacy +14, Handle Animal +8, Intimidate +16, Perform (Oratory) +10, Profession (Soldier) +6, Ride +7, Sense Motive +11; Racial Modifiers +2 Intimidate
Languages Common, Orc, Hallit
Traits Bastard, Courageous
Init +1; Senses Darkvision; Perception +1
AC 20; Touch 11; Flat-Footed 19; (+9 Armor, +1 Dex, )
HP 49 (6d10, 1d8, 7)
Fort +6; Ref +5; Will +5/+7 vs. Fear
Speed 30 ft Armored 20 ft
Space 5 ft; Reach 5 ft
Melee Longsword +10 (1d8+4, 19-20, S), Lance +10 (1d8+4, 20x3, P) Reach
Ranged Composite +4 Longbow +7 (1d8+4, 20x3, P) Range: 110 ft
Special Attacks Challenge +4 dmg (+6 if alone) 2/Day, Cavalier’s Charge, Inspire Courage +1 6 rounds/Day
Spells Known/Prepared (CL 1, Concentration +3)
1st - 2 (1/day)— ???, ???
0 - 4 (at will)— ???, ???, ???, ???
Still at a loss for what spells to pick though. Also would Horse Master be worth it? 9 is about the level land mounts start to fall off and that would be the earliest I could take it(, because Leadership is better.) Cornugon Smash and Gory Finish are also up there for feats.
How does your GM feel about third-party material?
Sorry for the late response. He's convinceable, but unlikely. I prefer trying to stay as close as I can to core anyway.
I know you said you did not want to play a Skald but honestly this may be the best choice. Take Perform Oratory and Perform Percussion. You are not so really a musician you give speeches.
Skald is a good choice, and Oratory would definitely be the way to go. I just wanted to keep the magic down for this character. It makes his extraordinary military feats feel all the more extraordinary that way (though that could just be my pride talking...)
Late to the party, but there's also a Gunslinger archetype (Mysterious Stranger?) that uses your Charisma instead of Wisdom for calculating grit.
Not at all! I still have time to make this character. I really like Mysterious Strange, but gunslinger is a bit of a one-trick pony and can mostly only dish out good damage under optimal circumstances. That damage can be amazing, but it does require set-up and a isn't very flexible.
Though a Gun-Totting Warlord gets some major style points, however.
All of the advice in this forum is really good, I think I'm going to try and compile it and edit it to the first post for anyone else interested in a character like this.
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As far as spells are concerned, go for general utility stuff that won't have to scale with level to be effective. Detect Charm could be useful in an intrigue-y campaign, and Enhance Water is great for a warlord that wants his soldiers to like him, and Swallow Your Fear could be super thematic for a warlord. Tap Inner Beauty is mechanically on-theme, but the name is perhaps a little misleading.
He's looking good!
Cure Light Wounds? Sometimes the healer needs to be healed...
Alarm, Comprehend Languages, Detect Secret Doors, Disguise Self, Expeditious Retreat (on your mount), Feather Fall, Grease, Silent Image, Undetectable Alignment, Unseen Servant, and Ventriloquism could all be warlordy, or at least utilitarian.
The ones in the APG look good too.
Do you know what the rest of the party will be?
Do you know what the rest of the party will be?
The only for sure character is an Elf Arcanist, the other two are undecided, but I can guess:
One is fond of Animal Companion classes, so he will tend towards a Druid or Cavalier; Maybe summoner if they feel like something new
The other one tends towards Alchemist and Monk(Zen Archer), I'm trying to push him out of his comfort zone into something new, but he'll probably go with his stand-by's
So the Party Comp:
Elf Arcanist
??? Druid/Cavalier/Summoner
Tengu? Alchemist/Zen Archer
Me
how about a medium?
If you grab the champion spirit, then they are basically running around like a ranger or paladin with 4 spell levels.
The champion spirit adds to attack and damage rolls (and fort saves; nice, but that is a good save; str skills too), giving up to a +6 bonus. This puts the 3/4 BAB medium at +21 attack. Since you don't have as much power attack, you are about on par with a full martial with that.
The real reason why your BAB is not a big problem is the special abilities that the champion spirit gives. At around 6th level, you get a 'bab patch'- you get another attack, at full BAB, when you full attack. Add on haste (which is on your spell list) and maybe a nice cornugon smash/hurtful build... and you can get FOUR attacks at full BAB. You also get a pseudo pounce (swift action to move and full attack; can't get the champion's extra attack or hurtful though).
The class also has 4 skill points per level, and they have all of the social skills as class skills. It might be tight to get all of them with the ever essential perception... but hey, you are thematically 1/4 orc- you could grab that one alt trait that gives +1 skill point in return for darkvision.
Overall... a strong martial pick. And of course, there is the other advantage of choosing other spirits as needed- maybe go with one of the skill spirits for days when you are doing pure social intrigue.
If he's running in setting kingmaker, why not be a Swordlord/swashbuckler?
Cha based, martial, fits the setting and particular group who sends you off to kingmaker.
Isn't there a swashbuckling cavalier archetype?
Isn't there a swashbuckling cavalier archetype?
There is, the Daring Champion. Doesn't get Opportune Parry & Riposte anymore but still a better Swashbuckler, with better saves, better class features overall, and Challenge damage on top of Precise Strike.