Being hit by a Wight causes energy drain. It says "In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses." (Core Rulebook 562)
I tried explaining that what this meant was that: if at 34/34 hp when you are struck by a Wight for 4 damage, that you would lower your current/max hp to 29/29hp and you have 4 damage on you from the slam, leaving you at 25/29.
34 - 5 --> 29 - 4 = 25
However, others thought it meant if you were at 34/34 hp when you are struck by a Wight for 4 damage, that you would take 4 damage and be at 30/34 hp, then lose 5 current hit points leaving you at 25/34, then lose 5 more current hit points because your max hp went down by 5, ending up at 20/29.
34 - 4 --> 30 - 5current --> 25 - 5max --> = 20
"It takes the whole range down" was the reasoning. - Other player
No amount of slow talking, pointing out rules, or showing them simple math could convince them. Please help me explain it better. Or tell me I'm wrong and show my mistake. Please reference actual page numbers from books.
you have 50hp and the thing does 10 damage to you you have 40/50hp the thing also does 2 negative levels which lower your max hp by 10 so your at 30/40 instead now the inisial damage of the thing doesnt lower your max hp just the effect from negative levels
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Tell them that their method actually reduces current HP by 10, not 5. The 5 point reduction of current HP is because of the reduction in maximum HP, not in addition to.
Put twenty coins on the table.
Tell them they have twenty coins out of a maximum of twenty.
Take away five coins.
Tell them the maximum has been reduced to fifteen.
If they don't get it at that point, maybe games involving maths aren't the best idea.
Also, if they don't get it... make sure you're using their coins :p
And yeah, in your example, you end up with 25/29 hp.
You're already n enough trouble as it is w/o doubling the Hp loss.
How old are your players?
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A big reason for this problem is how we calculate HP and Damage during game play.
Almost everyone I meet, myself included, look at it this way:
34/34 HP
Take 4 HP Damage so we subtract 4 from the first 34 to get
30/34 HP
Max Hp Reduced by 5 so we subtract 5 from the second 34 which brings us to
30/29 HP
Well we took 4 points of damage earlier so we have to recalculate current HP and get
25/29
This is very convoluted and actually goes against how the system was written (I think)
The better way to do this is this:
We have 34 HP max
We take 4 points of damage so we record 4 on the sheet, we don't subtract from out max, we have a pool called damage it totals 4 so we get
4/34
Out HP is reduced by five so we subtract 5 from 34 giving us an end result of
4/29
So with using two pools, one for Hit Points and one for Damage we simplify the math to two steps.
Maybe explaining it to them that way will make it more clear.
Teach your players how math works.
I think I get it: you have it right, and the other people here have given examples to explain it.
Your players thought how it worked was, "with each Level Drain, your Maximum HP goes down by 5, and then your current HP goes down by 5. So, by their understanding, if they were already injured, say 20/30, at the time of the 5-HP-&-1-negative-level wight attack, they'd end up at 10/25, just like they would have under how the rules actually work.
Due to their misunderstanding, it went, Lose 5 Max HP Due to Negative Level (taking their current HP down with it) -> THEN lose current HP -> THEN take damage.
If you're the GM in this case, you could always tell them that accepting the GM's ruling will make things easier on them.
Andarion wrote:
A big reason for this problem is how we calculate HP and Damage during game play.
Almost everyone I meet, myself included, look at it this way:
34/34 HP
Take 4 HP Damage so we subtract 4 from the first 34 to get
30/34 HP
Max Hp Reduced by 5 so we subtract 5 from the second 34 which brings us to
30/29 HP
Well we took 4 points of damage earlier so we have to recalculate current HP and get
25/29
This is very convoluted and actually goes against how the system was written (I think)
The better way to do this is this:
We have 34 HP max
We take 4 points of damage so we record 4 on the sheet, we don't subtract from out max, we have a pool called damage it totals 4 so we get
4/34
Out HP is reduced by five so we subtract 5 from 34 giving us an end result of
4/29
So with using two pools, one for Hit Points and one for Damage we simplify the math to two steps.
Maybe explaining it to them that way will make it more clear.
Yea this is how I tried explaining it to them and this is just my example written in a different way. It's not an issue now, but if it comes up again I'll link them this post and say "look how many people disagree with you."
Some people will insist on being right even after being proved wrong and it's hard to explain that they are wrong, when they have the mentality of using any means to defend their position even when proven wrong.
The Shifty Mongoose wrote: I think I get it: you have it right, and the other people here have given examples to explain it.
Your players thought how it worked was, "with each Level Drain, your Maximum HP goes down by 5, and then your current HP goes down by 5. So, by their understanding, if they were already injured, say 20/30, at the time of the 5-HP-&-1-negative-level wight attack, they'd end up at 10/25, just like they would have under how the rules actually work.
Due to their misunderstanding, it went, Lose 5 Max HP Due to Negative Level (taking their current HP down with it) -> THEN lose current HP -> THEN take damage.
If you're the GM in this case, you could always tell them that accepting the GM's ruling will make things easier on them.
I'm not the DM and that's why I let it go during game. The DM and another player just didn't get it so I let him have his way. He wasn't right, but in the end it was close to the end of an engagement anyways and my character was more than healthy enough to survive. I just made this thread so that in the future they will understand how it works, because what's already past is unimportant now.
For your GM:
Starting current hp: 34
Starting maximum hp: 34
Take 4 off of current hp due to damage: 34 - 4 = 30
Take 5 off of maximum hp due to negative level: 34 - 5 = 29
Take 5 off of current hp due to negative level: 30 - 5 = 25
Result: 25/29 hp
The other method (34-4-5-5 = 20/29) double dips the effect of negative level on the current hitpoints.
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