So I was theorizing what an encounter would look like if I were a wild shaped grappling druid with rapid grappler. My CMB would be enough to land a 'Grab' a good percentage of the time however it seems my CMD is too low vs opponents CMB (this may be the reason people say grappling is underwhelming) that they would literally break free once it was there turn.
My strategy here would be to (and please tell me if this would work or would not, I'm still learning) grapple the person who I would have the higher initiative against. Essentially I would defer my turn, let the enemy attack me then I would would attack and 'Grab' in snake form most likely. That way for the second round I know I am going first (because I have the higher initiative) and I can bring 3 grapples to the table and if they all connect (damage) that may be enough to slay the beast or at least seriously harm it. At that point if it does free itself on its turn, I start the process over again, but the key is to get the 3 grapples in before it frees itself and I don't see another way to do this with my weak CMD. Would it be important to take improved initiative if this were my strategy? Seems tactically (this method) it works but I'm not sure. Please provide me your advice, I appreciate it greatly.
If you delay your action you don't maintain your original inititive number. Your inititive is changed to the point in the order that you act.
If you Ready an action, to say, grapple them when they attack you. Your grapple will go off before their attack and you will go right before them next round in initiative. It's one of the ways readying is better than delaying.
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
If you Ready an action, to say, grapple them when they attack you. Your grapple will go off before their attack and you will go right before them next round in initiative. It's one of the ways readying is better than delaying.
Hmm sounds like I could ready my action then right before he attacks I attack first and grab my opponent. He will then escape my grapple and I will have to initiate grapple the second round and face the same dilemma no? It is so incredibly difficult to maintain a grapple due to the mechanics of the game, enemies CMD scales incredibly fast. What do I do?
Also, ensure you are calculating your CMD correctly. Make sure you are adding your deflection and dodge bonuses.
Also, if the enemy is using their standard action to escape then they are not doing anything else meaningful that turn (this means you are winning). Then your allies can beat them down. I have found that grappling is a low to mid damage tactic, but is a superior control tactic.
Also, ensure you are calculating your CMD correctly. Make sure you are adding your deflection and dodge bonuses.
Also, if the enemy is using their standard action to escape then they are not doing anything else meaningful that turn (this means you are winning). Then your allies can beat them down. I have found that grappling is a low to mid damage tactic, but is a superior control tactic.
Very good point never looked at it like that. So would that be his full turn that round breaking free of my grapple? If so that's not too bad, next round I could get in a grapple + damage in again before having him break free and rinse/repeat.
It is a standard action to escape a grapple by mundane methods, so not all of his turn but the part that is most useful for killing your team mates.
My druid grappler with greater grapple has spent many combats playing run from the huggy snake with either the boss or the mooks while the party dealt with the other.
I agree with DM Livgin.
In most fights the PCs outnumber the really dangerous bad guys (mooks excluded).
If you are able to grapple the BBEG (big bad evil guy), then he has to waste his turn getting out. Or at least waste his standard action. If he then tries to move away with anything but a five foot step, he provokes and AOO from you.
You can effectively lock down any one target with a good grapple build.
To make matters even better, the most dangerous enemies are usually spellcasters. Most spell casters are unlikely to make it out of your grapple on a normal roll.
Just to make sure you are calculating you CMD properly it is:
10 + strength modifier + dex modifier + base attack bonus + size modifier (Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8) + most bonuses to AC (A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD)
Very nice, may I ask what your Druids level/feats and CMB is?
My grapple build will eventually look like this, what do you think? I tried to get maximum CMB
Lvl 1 Improved unarmed strike
Lvl 1 Improved grappling
Lvl 3 weapon focus (grapple)
Lvl 5 Natural Spell
Lvl 7 Wild Speech
Lvl 9 Greater grappling
Lvl 11 Powerful shape
lvl 13 Rapid Grappling
Let's say you are playing a fairly decent grappling druid.
At level 4 you could easily have:
+3 BAB
+4 Strength
+2 Dex
+2 improved grapple
This brings your CMB to +9 and your CMD to 19, this is before you wild shape, which would increase these numbers to +10 and 20 respectively.
If you expected a big fight you could even cast bull's strength and cat's grace before hand. This combined with wildshape, would bring your numbers to +12 and 24. Most NPC's you are dealing with will have a great deal of trouble getting out of a CMD 24 grapple. The CR 6 fighter from the NPC codex (a 7th level fighter) would need to roll a 15 or better on the d20 to escape. The CR 8 wizard (a 9th level wizard) would need a 19 or 20 to get out if you were fully buffed.
Even without the buffs that same 9th level wizard would need a 14 or better to escape.
If that same 9th level wizard wanted to cast a spell while your 4th level Druid grappled him he would need to make a concentration check. The DC for this is 10 + your CMB + the spell level. So to cast his best spells (5th level), he would need a concentration check of 24 (with you unbuffed) or 27 (if you buffed before the fight). He has a +13 concentration, so he will likely fail.
I use the example of a 9th level wizard and a 7th level fighter to show that you can be effective well above your level with a moderately competent build.
(I got ninja'd by your post)
With the weapon focus (grapple), it would be even harder for the wizard to cast his spell while grappled :)
Let's say you are playing a fairly decent grappling druid.
At level 4 you could easily have:
+3 BAB
+4 Strength
+2 Dex
+2 improved grappleThis brings your CMB to +9 and your CMD to 19, this is before you wild shape, which would increase these numbers to +10 and 20 respectively.
If you expected a big fight you could even cast bull's strength and cat's grace before hand. This combined with wildshape, would bring your numbers to +12 and 24. Most NPC's you are dealing with will have a great deal of trouble getting out of a CMD 24 grapple. The CR 6 fighter from the NPC codex (a 7th level fighter) would need to roll a 15 or better on the d20 to escape. The CR 8 wizard (a 9th level wizard) would need a 19 or 20 to get out if you were fully buffed.
Even without the buffs that same 9th level wizard would need a 14 or better to escape.
If that same 9th level wizard wanted to cast a spell while your 4th level Druid grappled him he would need to make a concentration check. The DC for this is 10 + your CMB + the spell level. So to cast his best spells (5th level), he would need a concentration check of 24 (with you unbuffed) or 27 (if you buffed before the fight). He has a +13 concentration, so he will likely fail.
I use the example of a 9th level wizard and a 7th level fighter to show that you can be effective well above your level with a moderately competent build.
This is very helpful thanks a lot. How does my build look? By level 13 my CMB should be low 30's with a couple magic items and no buffs. I have heard though that monsters scale quite quickly. Would I be able to grapple at level 16 with say a 38 CMB? Or is that too low?
Very nice, may I ask what your Druids level/feats and CMB is?
I should warn you that this character was created with the explicit goal of being able to grapple a dragon out of the sky... (so has many glaring weak spots).
Str 18, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 5 after gear and advancement.
L1,D1: Celestial Obedience(falayna)
L3,D3:
L5,M1: Shaping Focus, Monk Bonus: Imp. Unarmed, Imp. Grapple.
L6,M2: Monk Bonus: Stunning Pin.
L7,M3: Planer Wild Shape
L9,M5: Lunge
In Dire Tiger form he is 32 CMB / 42 CMD (grappling only) prebuff.
10 + 7 BAB + 1 BAB monk adjustment + 6 Str + 3 Dex + 1 Size + 2 Insight (Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone, Wayfinder) + 2 Deflection + 4 Monk AC + 2 Improved Grapple + 4 Sacred (Celestial Obedience).
Ki dodge increases the CMD by 4.
Haste increases the CMD by 1.
I wanted to use combat expertise for more dodge but I lack the intelligence and am not willing to slow down my tetori progression to dip.
7 BAB + 1 BAB monk adjustment + 6 Str + 1 Size + 2 Insight (Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone, Wayfinder) + 2 Imp. Grapple + 2 Greater Grapple + 4 Sacred (Celestial Obedience) + 1 Competence (Armbands of the Brawler) + 2 Untyped (Gauntlets of Skilled Maneuvers)
I think your build will work well for what you want it to do.
A couple key things to keep in mind:
1.) The spell Freedom of Movement could be your Achilles' heal, thankfully you are a spell caster yourself and can dispel magic.
2.) Grappling big things is difficult, thankfully with wildshape you can be large by level 6 and huge by level 8.
3.) If grappling does not work in a particular fight, don't forget you are also a full caster (you get 9th level spells). Some of these spells are still great even if you don't have a huge wisdom. Spells to buff the party or change the battle field like Wall of thorns can do wonders when you are unable to grapple for what ever reason.
4.) This goes along with #3, as a Druid you are super flexible, if your party needs a scout more than a grappler that day, turn into a bird. If your party needs some magical healing, you can help a bit there (do this out of combat). While grappling may be the thing you are best at, your greatest strength will be your flexibility. A monk build may be able to be a (slightly) better grappler, buts that's all they can do. You my friend will have a 1000 things you can do.
Very nice, may I ask what your Druids level/feats and CMB is?I should warn you that this character was created with the explicit goal of being able to grapple a dragon out of the sky...
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Godly numbers. I believe our CMBs would be similar. What CR dragon would you grapple and what would his CMD be?
I think your build will work well for what you want it to do.
A couple key things to keep in mind:
1.) The spell Freedom of Movement could be your Achilles' heal, thankfully you are a spell caster yourself and can dispel magic.
2.) Grappling big things is difficult, thankfully with wildshape you can be large by level 6 and huge by level 8.
3.) If grappling does not work in a particular fight, don't forget you are also a full caster (you get 9th level spells). Some of these spells are still great even if you don't have a huge wisdom. Spells to buff the party or change the battle field like Wall of thorns can do wonders when you are unable to grapple for what ever reason.
4.) This goes along with #3, as a Druid you are super flexible, if your party needs a scout more than a grappler that day, turn into a bird. If your party needs some magical healing, you can help a bit there (do this out of combat). While grappling may be the thing you are best at, your greatest strength will be your flexibility. A monk build may be able to be a (slightly) better grappler, buts that's all they can do. You my friend will have a 1000 things you can do.
Indeed very well put. Also I feel with powerful shape I will be effectively gargantuan size thus nearly nobody is too large.
I think you will have fun in the adventure path. It is one of the best out there. I wish you and your party luck. :)
I used the base line of being useful to the party, after group buffs, against an Adult Black Dragon at level 7. But that was just the baseline I used to decide if the pure grapple build was something I wanted to invest in.
I haven't actually been able to grapple a Dragon out of the sky, we made peace with the only one Rok has encountered. But he did have an air grapple battle with actual Rocs as a Dire Bat, and a succubus as an eagle (I was going to shift into a bear but it started flying away), and did a flying tackle of a flying Div (I don't actually know what it was, we lacked knowledge) with Cheetahs Sprint from snake form.
Consider aiming to increase your CMD after you gain greater grapple. With Greater Grapple you have two attempts to maintain the grapple (you still control the grapple if one fails and one succeeds), so a 1/4 chance to failing to maintain becomes 1/16 with greater grapple. But the enemy still only needs one success to escape and put you back in square one.
Consider aiming to increase your CMD after you gain greater grapple. With Greater Grapple you have two attempts to maintain the grapple (you still control the grapple if one fails and one succeeds), so a 1/4 chance to failing to maintain becomes 1/16 with greater grapple. But the enemy still only needs one success to escape and put you back in square one.
Which feat would u suggest and which would I replace it with? My lvl 5 and 7 are essential.
Wild speech can be replaced with a ring of eloquence or Gold Nodule ioun stone.
Weapon focus only gives a +1 bonus, I would consider it next when it comes to replacing feats.
Would getting Snapping turtle style and clutch (2 feats) solve my problem? Basically enemy goes first attacks me, I use snapping turtle clutch to grapple them, then when its my turn I grapple them for 3 grapples (rapid grappling) does that work?
Wild speech can be replaced with a ring of eloquence or Gold Nodule ioun stone.
Weapon focus only gives a +1 bonus, I would consider it next when it comes to replacing feats.
Great find! Did not know this existed.
Would getting Snapping turtle style and clutch (2 feats) solve my problem? Basically enemy goes first attacks me, I use snapping turtle clutch to grapple them, then when its my turn I grapple them for 3 grapples (rapid grappling) does that work?
Snapping Turtle Clutch restricts you to shapes with hands. Unless your GM is ok with house ruling kung-fu tigers/hippos/snakes.
Would getting Snapping turtle style and clutch (2 feats) solve my problem? Basically enemy goes first attacks me, I use snapping turtle clutch to grapple them, then when its my turn I grapple them for 3 grapples (rapid grappling) does that work?Snapping Turtle Clutch restricts you to shapes with hands. Unless your GM is ok with house ruling kung-fu tigers/hippos/snakes.
Ohh ya I don't think he will be keen on kung fu tigers lol so is there any real reason to get rapid grappling? Seems like its hard to ever pull off, however greater grappling seems like a must have feat for my particular character. Could you see any reason to warrant getting rapid grappling (particularly for snake form)?
It is a significant damage increase. Any time you start adjacent to an enemy you can standard action initiate grapple, move action pin, swift action damage. That is one natural attack and 3 constricts as a snake. (standard action grapple instead of attack is a trade off for less damage but not having to roll to hit.)
I agree with DM Livgin.
In most fights the PCs outnumber the really dangerous bad guys (mooks excluded).
If you are able to grapple the BBEG (big bad evil guy), then he has to waste his turn getting out. Or at least waste his standard action. If he then tries to move away with anything but a five foot step, he provokes and AOO from you.
You can effectively lock down any one target with a good grapple build.
To make matters even better, the most dangerous enemies are usually spellcasters. Most spell casters are unlikely to make it out of your grapple on a normal roll.
Just to make sure you are calculating you CMD properly it is:
10 + strength modifier + dex modifier + base attack bonus + size modifier (Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8) + most bonuses to AC (A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD)
Michael it seems at low levels the enemy would struggle to break free of the grapple, however after level 14+ it seems the opponents CMB is too high for my CMD and that is the problem. The enemy scales much to fast, it doesn't scale in proportion at all, early to mid game its not too bad though.
|
Would getting Snapping turtle style and clutch (2 feats) solve my problem? Basically enemy goes first attacks me, I use snapping turtle clutch to grapple them, then when its my turn I grapple them for 3 grapples (rapid grappling) does that work?
Snapping Turtle Clutch uses an Immediate action, so you would only get a Standard and a Move action grapple checks as you've already burned your Swift via the Immediate.
Also, to make sure you know, there is no size limit to grappling so it doesn't matter what size you are.
Would getting Snapping turtle style and clutch (2 feats) solve my problem? Basically enemy goes first attacks me, I use snapping turtle clutch to grapple them, then when its my turn I grapple them for 3 grapples (rapid grappling) does that work?Snapping Turtle Clutch uses an Immediate action, so you would only get a Standard and a Move action grapple checks as you've already burned your Swift via the Immediate.
Also, to make sure you know, there is no size limit to grappling so it doesn't matter what size you are.
Only a size limit when using "Grab" ability to grapple correct?
@Atalius, Answering you question here, so that anyone else that has questions about grappling can see it:
Yes, it is possible to:
Standard Action: Attack as a snake, hit, deal bite damage.
Free Action: Grab grapple check to initiate grapple. Deal constrict damage.
Move Action: Greater Grapple check, deal bite and constrict damage.
Swift Action: Rapid Grapple check, deal bite and constrict damage.
@Atalius, Answering you question here, so that anyone else that has questions about grappling can see it:
Yes, it is possible to:
Standard Action: Attack as a snake, hit, deal bite damage.
Free Action: Grab grapple check to initiate grapple. Deal constrict damage.
Move Action: Greater Grapple check, deal bite and constrict damage.
Swift Action: Rapid Grapple check, deal bite and constrict damage.
Wow nice, that is a strong play. Let me repeat what you said because I want to run this by my GM who said he isn't super confident with grappling rules.
Basically, starting adjacent to opponent you attack, hit, deal bite damage. Then automatically your 'Grab' special attack kicks in and you initiate the grapple. If this is successful you deal only constrict damage. Then you use greater grapple and if you succeed with that you deal bite damage and constrict damage. Then lastly, you use your rapid grapple check (this is at a -5 penalty as per Rapid Grappler) and if you succeed you deal bite damage and constrict damage.
This is all in one round.
Yep, it is the 'Grapple Full Attack' (not actual term, just how I describe it to those unfamiliar with grappling). In actual game play it rarely does more damage than a barbarian with an earthbreaker, but that is how it works.
Yep, it is the 'Grapple Full Attack' (not actual term, just how I describe it to those unfamiliar with grappling). In actual game play it rarely does more damage than a barbarian with an earthbreaker, but that is how it works.
DM Livgin you seem to have an excellent understanding of combat. May I ask you how a combat round assuming the same feats but this time with multiple attacks in Plant form would look like?
Assuming:
4 vines (1d8 plus grab)
Special Attacks constrict (1d8)
|
|
What I'm about to post can be seen as abuse of mechanics and free actions, but is by RAW legal. Also note if you use such actions, the GM can rightfully use them back on you.
Vine 1 attack, hit, 1d8 damage
Vine 1 grab and grapple
Vine 1 constrict, 1d8 damage
Free action release grapple
Vine 2 attack, hit, 1d8 damage
Vine 2 grab and grapple
Vine 2 constrict, 1d8 damage
Free action release grapple
Vine 3 attack, hit, 1d8 damage
Vine 3 grab and grapple
Vine 3 constrict, 1d8 damage
Free action release grapple
Vine 4 attack, hit, 1d8 damage
Vine 4 grab and grapple
Vine 4 constrict, 1d8 damage
Free action release grapple (if you want to)
That's 8d8 damage if all attacks and grapples are successful.
What I'm about to post can be seen as abuse of mechanics and free actions, but is by RAW legal. Also note if you use such actions, the GM can rightfully use them back on you.
Vine 1 attack, hit, 1d8 damage
Vine 1 grab and grapple
Vine 1 constrict, 1d8 damage
Free action release grappleVine 2 attack, hit, 1d8 damage
Vine 2 grab and grapple
Vine 2 constrict, 1d8 damage
Free action release grappleVine 3 attack, hit, 1d8 damage
Vine 3 grab and grapple
Vine 3 constrict, 1d8 damage
Free action release grappleVine 4 attack, hit, 1d8 damage
Vine 4 grab and grapple
Vine 4 constrict, 1d8 damage
Free action release grapple (if you want to)That's 8d8 damage if all attacks and grapples are successful.
Hmm ya that's effective and cheesy for sure lol I guess the loss of 1.5X damage from constrict via Constrictor Snake isn't a big deal? I'm assuming these plants do straight Str modifier damage only correct?
I'm still relatively new could you tell me what the benefit to releasing the grapple is?
Yep, it is the 'Grapple Full Attack' (not actual term, just how I describe it to those unfamiliar with grappling). In actual game play it rarely does more damage than a barbarian with an earthbreaker, but that is how it works.DM Livgin you seem to have an excellent understanding of combat. May I ask you how a combat round assuming the same feats but this time with multiple attacks in Plant form would look like?
Assuming:
4 vines (1d8 plus grab)
Special Attacks constrict (1d8)
As we all acknowledge it is unlikely that the grab, constrict, and release method of attacking is not the intent of the constrict rules.
So with your grappling feats:
You start your turn in reach of an enemy (because you are a viper vine with 20ft of reach). You begin full attacking.
If you hit
Roll 1d8+STR damage,
Roll to grapple,
If your Grapple roll succeeds,
Roll constrict damage.
You are now grappling.
Attack again, if you hit and grappled you are now grappling so you have a -2 to hit and your grappled target has -2 AC.
If you hit, roll damage but do not grapple and constrict them again (because you cant initiate a grapple with someone you are grappling).
This nets you 5 x 1d8+STR in a perfect 1 v 1 round.
Or they have a high AC and only one blow lands, but you had 4 tries to make that one blow land.
Turn two you maintain 3 times, once to pin and twice to damage for 5 x 1d8+STR provided they do not escape your grapple. Or you release the grapple and full attack instead.
Or turn one you initiate grapple with a typical standard action + constrict, and maintain as a move action +constrict +damage, and maintain as a swift action +constrict +damage for 5 x 1d8+STR damage.
This vine shape gives you the option to roll against their AC or CMD which sometimes comes in handy.
Alternatively, you get surrounded by 4 barbarians with greatswords and attack each of them once. You hit, grapple, and constrict each one of them for 8 x 1d8+STR damage spread across 4 enemies. And then on their turn they can not attack with their greatswords because they are grappled, and you've reduced them to drawing a handaxe as a move action and making a single attack against you instead of full attacking with their two handed weapons. This is again where the grappler shines, controlling the enemy.
Yep, it is the 'Grapple Full Attack' (not actual term, just how I describe it to those unfamiliar with grappling). In actual game play it rarely does more damage than a barbarian with an earthbreaker, but that is how it works.DM Livgin you seem to have an excellent understanding of combat. May I ask you how a combat round assuming the same feats but this time with multiple attacks in Plant form would look like?
Assuming:
4 vines (1d8 plus grab)
Special Attacks constrict (1d8)As we all acknowledge it is unlikely that the grab, constrict, and release method of attacking is not the intent of the constrict rules.
So with your grappling feats:
You start your turn in reach of an enemy (because you are a viper vine with 20ft of reach). You begin full attacking.
If you hit
Roll 1d8+STR damage,
Roll to grapple,
If your Grapple roll succeeds,
Roll constrict damage.
You are now grappling.
Attack again, if you hit and grappled you are now grappling so you have a -2 to hit and your grappled target has -2 AC.
If you hit, roll damage but do not grapple and constrict them again (because you cant initiate a grapple with someone you are grappling).
This nets you 5 x 1d8+STR in a perfect 1 v 1 round.
Or they have a high AC and only one blow lands, but you had 4 tries to make that one blow land.Turn two you maintain 3 times, once to pin and twice to damage for 5 x 1d8+STR provided they do not escape your grapple. Or you release the grapple and full attack instead.
Or turn one you initiate grapple with a typical standard action + constrict, and maintain as a move action +constrict +damage, and maintain as a swift action +constrict +damage for 5 x 1d8+STR damage.
This vine shape gives you the option to roll against their AC or CMD which sometimes comes in handy.
Alternatively, you get surrounded by 4 barbarians with greatswords and attack each of them once. You hit, grapple, and constrict each one of...
Thank you very much DM. Sounds like I could get more damage in a single out of the Anaconda?