Acererak a chump?


5th Edition (And Beyond)


Looking at the stat block for Acererak the infamous demilich from Tomb of Horrors in Tales of the Yawning Portal- he's rated CR 21. He has a AC 20 and 80 hp. He does has potent offensive abilities that can drop opponents to 0 hp if they fail a save or suck them into the soul gems that act as his teeth, but with only 80 this fight will come down to who wins initiative. Sure he has legendary actions, he could easily dropped before he gets to do much of anything.

If anyone gets to playing through this adventure, I'd very much be interested in hearing how the adventure as a whole goes, and specifically how the final encounter with Acererak runs.


Where did you see that?


I just downloaded the Yawning Portal for roll20.


I didn't realize it was out.

Silver Crusade

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The big thing with that module isn't so much the monsters, it's the traps, layout, etc. It was designed to kill PCs well before they even got the real lair of the demi-lich.


Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:
I didn't realize it was out.

The release date is first week of April, but wizards have recently adopted a policy of allowing FLGSes to sell books a couple of weeks early.

Grand Lodge

Yeah, stores in the WPN got to release it today.


What are his resistances though? I'd imagine they'd be substantial?


P.H. Dungeon wrote:

Looking at the stat block for Acererak the infamous demilich from Tomb of Horrors in Tales of the Yawning Portal- he's rated CR 21. He has a AC 20 and 80 hp. He does has potent offensive abilities that can drop opponents to 0 hp if they fail a save or suck them into the soul gems that act as his teeth, but with only 80 this fight will come down to who wins initiative. Sure he has legendary actions, he could easily dropped before he gets to do much of anything.

If anyone gets to playing through this adventure, I'd very much be interested in hearing how the adventure as a whole goes, and specifically how the final encounter with Acererak runs.

That matches the MM. It also is immune or functionally resistant to almost every single attack.

However, an evocation wizard using magic missile will likely oneshot it.

EDIT

Immune: nonmagic weapons, necrotic, poison, psychic damage

Resistant: magic weapons

Avoidance: takes half damage from a failed save, no damage from a successful save.

The MM version also has brutal lair actions and a AoE save or die.


hiiamtom wrote:
However, an evocation wizard using magic missile will likely oneshot it.

I don't agree with the sage advice ruling on evocation wizards and magic missile, but if I were running it the way they suggested there, almost every spell caster in the world would learn shield. It would be foolish not to.


That's funny. Turns out demiliches aren't spellcasters. I guess that cements my opinion that the second (most recent) sage advice is in error.

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Demiliches can steal hit points too. That might give them some staying power. I haven't run one yet in 5e.

But Constitution 10??? Really? And no Magic Resistance? Avoidance is nice, though.


It's certainly an odd Interpretation of the magic missile spell. I guess it's called sage advice for a reason. God bless 5th eds free spirited rule set.

I guess avoidance is a slightly improved spell resistance where instead of getting advantage on saves they take half or no damage. Also if it's a legendary creature the it's auto passing the first few saves.

It sounds pretty nasty to me, isnt AC 20 top end for most monsters? Glad it only has 80hp.

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AC 20 vs +6 proficiency bonus +5 ability score modifier +3 magic weapon bonus/warcaster's rod/pact master's rod, etc.

So AC 20 vs +14 to hit, so around 70% hit chance. With bless, that's 75% to 90% hit chance.

I'm assuming a party of 17th level or higher is fighting the CR 18 monster, CR 20 in its lair. If it's level 13-16, lower everything by 5% or 10%.

A basic party of fighter, cleric, wizard, and rogue will probably 1 round it, right? The fighter gets 3 attacks a round for 2d6+8 each, the rogue 1 sneak attack of 10d6+5-ish, the cleric casts bless if not pre-buffed (maybe a 3d8 weapon attack or an 8d6 guiding bolt otherwise), and the wizard's choice of damaging spell, maybe a 7d8 chromatic sphere. Assuming no crits, that's 45 + 40 + 28 + 30. So even if 1 PC misses (and the fighter misses 3 times!), it gets killed in 1 round on average. And that's with some sub-optimal spell selection.

I really like 5e, but it looks like some of the high level monsters need higher ACs. Like 25, maybe 30 if the monster is vulnerable to smart tactics.

I'm running a campaign of 6 PCs, and at 4th level, they were hitting an AC 16 pretty consistently. Now they're 5th level....

EDIT:

Just read that it has Resistance to magic weapons, so maybe 2 rounds on average?

Also, what magic missile FAQ are you referring to?


It's on the Twitter sage advice. Essentially that magic missile is one damage roll multiplied by the number of missiles, so 1d4+1 +3 (for the evoker power) for every missile. Looks out of whack to me!

Best as I can tell it's a level 11-13 party going up against Acerak, depending on how quickly they level up across the adventure as it starts at 11, though it can probably be adjusted.

There are a lot lair actions and legendary actions that can take PCs out. Plus it's Life drain could heal it 18d6 damage on failed DC 19 Con saves which is pretty bad ass.

One lair ability is it can put an anti magic field on a target (only affecting it) no save that lasts a whole round - effectively shutting down a cleric or wizard.


SmiloDan wrote:


Also, what magic missile FAQ are you referring to?

There was a sage advice on magic missile and the evocation mage's ability to add their INT bonus to damage rolls.

There is a rule in the damage roll section that spells which affect a number of targets at the same time all take the same damage roll (so you don't roll fireball damage individually for all targets, for example but rather roll once and that damage roll applies to all).

Magic missile specifically says that all bolts hit simultaneously. Hence (the argument goes) you roll one d4 and that applies to all missiles, rather than d4+1 rolled individually for each missile.

An evocation mage therefore casts magic missile which automatically hits for d4+1+INT unsavable and not-generally-resistable damage multiplied by the number of bolts.

There is then the overchannel ability at 14th level, allowing a wizard to maximise damage on a spell.

So the strategy is once per LR you can automatically do 70 points of damage (a 5th level magic missile spell, all bolts striking the same target). But even if you don't overchannel, the (d4+6)xnumber of bolts is a significant boost.

Sage advice has, in various places, confirmed that the above is how they think it works.

Many people seem to think you roll the d4 for each missile individually (and hence only one of them gets boosted by the +INT to a single damage roll). This is how I prefer it too - largely because the Sage Advice interpretation puts magic missile into its own category that can trump other evocation spells of a similar spell slot.

I generally dislike any mechanical option which becomes the obviously correct choice almost all the time. (I'm also worried at the efficacy of bless for a similar reason - when the cleric shrugs and casts bless every single time instead of any other concentration spell, I think it's overpowered. I wish it had been one target + one target per spell slot or similar).

In my view the 'all bolts strike simultaneously' part of magic missile is there to clarify that the caster needs to specify the targets before knowing the results - the 'only one damage roll for multiple targets' seems to me to be clearly just a timesaving mechanism for AOE spells. The two concepts have just been muddled together due to referring to simultaneity.

The initial sage advice comment (from 2014) ruled that the +INT damage applied only once. However that was by Mearls and there's a general Crawford > Mearls rule, as well as a later > earlier rule.

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Wow! That's nuts! I think you should roll damage for each missile separately. For the additional damage, I can see either interpretation. It's a 10th level ability, so it should be relatively powerful.

With a 20 Intelligence, a 5th level fireball does 10d6+5 to multiple targets, or 65 if Overchanneled. A 5th level magic missile does 1d4+6 x 7 to a single target, or 70 if Overchanneled, so it looks balanced against that comparison.

Grand Lodge

They changed the wording way back in 3rd edition.

In 1st edition AD&D, the wording was:

1st Edition Player's Handbook wrote:
Each missile does 2 to 5 hit points (d4 + 1) of damage.

In 2nd edition AD&D, the wording was:

2nd Edition Player's Handbook wrote:
Against creatures, each missile inflicts 1d4+1 points of damage.


SmiloDan wrote:

Wow! That's nuts! I think you should roll damage for each missile separately. For the additional damage, I can see either interpretation. It's a 10th level ability, so it should be relatively powerful.

With a 20 Intelligence, a 5th level fireball does 10d6+5 to multiple targets, or 65 if Overchanneled. A 5th level magic missile does 1d4+6 x 7 to a single target, or 70 if Overchanneled, so it looks balanced against that comparison.

For me, the no-save and very-rarely-resisted force damage (vs save for half and often resisted fire damage) swing it as 'too good'.

Also, when it isn't maximised, the fireball does an average of 31 whereas the magic missile averages 59.5 which seems like too much to me.

Especially given the possibility for an autowin in so many situations - I like the PCs to be powerful, but I don't like the idea of one-shotting (or perhaps two-shotting) the BBEG and then just mopping up minions.

As I said though, in a campaign with this interpretation I think shield becomes a 'must have' spell for fragile bosses. I just don't like the idea of a tactic that everyone has to have.

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CR 10 are aboleth, death slaad, deva, guardian naga, stone golem, yochlol, young red or gold dragon, alhoon, deathkiss, froghemoth, or stone giant dreamwalker. Most have well over double the hit points of that overchanneled 5th level magic missile and some have shield already.


If the adventure is true to the 1e version the party won't make it that far. The original was full of save or die death traps. Go down the wrong hall get crushed. Open the wrong door die. It was not fair it was not balanced it was not meant to be beaten. You won by giving up and keeping your character alive.

I imagine they turned it down from 11 to about a 4. People think they should win adventures these days. Damn Kids!

A 1e demi lich also required a very specific way to killed. A shatter spell, a holy word spell, or casting dispelled evil Caused damage, nothing else. A fighter with at least a plus 4 sword could also cause 1 point of damage per hit. nothing else damaged it. When the module came out the stats for the demi lich were not published so unless you read the module you were guessing. You probably hadn't memorized those spells. Oh well 3d6 in order boys let's try again from the top.


SmiloDan wrote:
CR 10 are aboleth, death slaad, deva, guardian naga, stone golem, yochlol, young red or gold dragon, alhoon, deathkiss, froghemoth, or stone giant dreamwalker. Most have well over double the hit points of that overchanneled 5th level magic missile and some have shield already.

Sure. I think it's an interpretation that makes the game less fun, so I don't use it. It's not always an autowin, just too often for my tastes.

FWIW, I included the overchannel for completeness, that isn't the root of the power issue since it's a poor choice anyhow in magic missile's case (far better to maximise an effect with lots of large dice than one with lots of bonuses and not many small dice), it's the boost to the average that is out of proportion, imo.

With that interpretation, an evocation Mage will have lots of evocation spells but will often be in the position of finding that magic missile is the best choice. That's my problem with it, at it's heart. (It's similar to bless - if you build a cleric with lots of concentration spells, nine times out of ten it's better to ignore them all and just use bless. In my mind, that's an indication of an overpowered option).

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I played an acolyte hill dwarf cleric of Life of Desna from levels 1 through 14 in a conversion of RotRL. I cast bless A LOT. But there weren't a lot of Concentration spells I wanted to cast. The occasional spirit guardians or banishment or contagion. I mostly used cure wounds, healing words, mass healing words, mass cure wounds, guiding bolt, sacred fire, spiritual weapon and after I got resurrected by a succubus-balor, bane, inflict wounds, bestow curse, and insect plague.

In a homebrew game I'm running, I've houseruled you can Concentrate on a number of spells equal to half your Proficiency bonus. So, at level 9, when you get kind of sick of casting the same spell all the time, you can still cast the same spell all the time AND something new and shiny. I don't think it will be game breaking, but the party just got to 5th level, so it will be a while before we can test that theory out.


SmiloDan wrote:
I played an acolyte hill dwarf cleric of Life of Desna from levels 1 through 14 in a conversion of RotRL. I cast bless A LOT. But there weren't a lot of Concentration spells I wanted to cast.

That's kind of my point. If bless were a bit worse or the others a bit better it would suit my preferences more.

Our experiences have been similar - shield of faith just never seems like as good an option as bless and I think that's indicative of a balance problem.

I don't mind the option of allowing multiple concentration spells (though I think I'd impose disadvantage on the CON save to maintain more than one in the face of damage). Do you grant a save per concentration spell? Or is it all-or-nothing?

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It hasn't come up yet. I guess 1 save per spell.


Shield of Faith is the bane of my Curse of Strahd game. The paladin is yet to lose shield of faith since getting his aura and has an AC of 20 using his starting equipment in fights. He doesn't even have War Caster... It's very much a paladin's spell more than a cleric's.

It is a lot of bless before spirit guardians though.

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The party of 6 I DM for has TWO clerics, so even at 1st level, they could all be blessed at once. It took them 3 or 4 levels to realize this, but still....

Dark Archive

hiiamtom wrote:
P.H. Dungeon wrote:

Looking at the stat block for Acererak the infamous demilich from Tomb of Horrors in Tales of the Yawning Portal- he's rated CR 21. He has a AC 20 and 80 hp. He does has potent offensive abilities that can drop opponents to 0 hp if they fail a save or suck them into the soul gems that act as his teeth, but with only 80 this fight will come down to who wins initiative. Sure he has legendary actions, he could easily dropped before he gets to do much of anything.

If anyone gets to playing through this adventure, I'd very much be interested in hearing how the adventure as a whole goes, and specifically how the final encounter with Acererak runs.

That matches the MM. It also is immune or functionally resistant to almost every single attack.

However, an evocation wizard using magic missile will likely oneshot it.

EDIT

Immune: nonmagic weapons, necrotic, poison, psychic damage

Resistant: magic weapons

Avoidance: takes half damage from a failed save, no damage from a successful save.

The MM version also has brutal lair actions and a AoE save or die.

That's a lot more generous to players than the S1 version. It didn't have immunities, it had a (very short) list of the things that actually COULD affect it. And several of those things were pretty unlikely to ever happen, from the sheer randomness. Stuff like a thief throwing gems at it, etc.

Dark Archive

Steve Geddes wrote:
That's funny. Turns out demiliches aren't spellcasters. I guess that cements my opinion that the second (most recent) sage advice is in error.

I think it's worth noting that the canon, ever since Return to the Tomb of Horrors, is that the floating skull at the end of Tomb of Horrors is NOT actually Acerak, but merely a construct he created to fool adventurers.


I don't think "more forgiving than the original Tomb of Horrors" is a high bar to meet... Besides, the intention in AD&D according to many is that AD&D pointed to the things you could do to give an idea on what you could do and not to say those are the only thing you could do. Like other people can pick locks, even though only one class has the ability listed.

Disclaimer: I have not played AD&D, only know those that did and heard some interviews and stuff.


My group has a desire to play with some old school rules, so our next session I'll be teaching them 2e (the edition I know best), and we're going to play modron March.


I don't how you can go back to AD&D, with thief %, and THAC0.

That said Modron March is awesome. Are you tempted to link it Dead Gods?

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Didn't you just do a conversion of the Modron March to 5e?

2nd Edition is so clunky compared to all the other editions!!!! :-O

Wizards only get 1 spell! 1!!!!!!! Also, 1d4 hit points. How did ANY wizard survive to 2nd level????

I take it you're not playing with friends, because friends don't let friends use THAC0. ;-)


bookrat wrote:
My group has a desire to play with some old school rules, so our next session I'll be teaching them 2e (the edition I know best), and we're going to play modron March.

I wish I could persuade my mob to go back to OSRIC games. Trouble is the other DMs don't like making stuff up on the fly, so when they try and run them, they spend ages looking through books for tables of modifiers which aren't there. (Or debating over whether a spell saying "the target is pulled thirty feet" can be used to pull someone only twenty feet...)

Grand Lodge

SmiloDan wrote:
friends don't let friends use THAC0. ;-)

Because 5th grade math is just so... so, difficult; and what's the word I'm looking for here? Ah yes... Unintuitive! ;-)

Sovereign Court

SmiloDan wrote:


Wizards only get 1 spell! 1!!!!!!! Also, 1d4 hit points. How did ANY wizard survive to 2nd level????

Darts, lots and lots of darts


SmiloDan wrote:

Didn't you just do a conversion of the Modron March to 5e?

2nd Edition is so clunky compared to all the other editions!!!! :-O

Wizards only get 1 spell! 1!!!!!!! Also, 1d4 hit points. How did ANY wizard survive to 2nd level????

I take it you're not playing with friends, because friends don't let friends use THAC0. ;-)

Surviving the first few levels as a wizard was a satisfaction on it's own. In order to do so, you needed to have a good party to help you out survive so when you get access to more powerful spells they'll be thankful for when you save them in return.

Also having low level wizards this weak prenvent their proliferation, which was fine since most settings at that time was less common and widely available compared to what we have now. Yet I'm glad that 5e brought the cantrip to be used in place of darts :D

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OK, do whatever you think is fun. :-D


Lol. Yes, I did convert modron March and dead gods to 5e.

During session 0, they decided against planescape and now we're doing Spelljammer.

Teaching them THAC0 was a challenge all on its own. There was a lot of "Dear God why would someone design it like this?!" :)

Sovereign Court

bookrat wrote:


Teaching them THAC0 was a challenge all on its own. There was a lot of "Dear God why would someone design it like this?!" :)

Show them the combat matrices from the 1st Ed. DMG and say this is why.

Grand Lodge

bookrat wrote:
Teaching them THAC0 was a challenge all on its own. There was a lot of "Dear God why would someone design it like this?!" :)

I know, right... You roll like a 12 on a d20 and then subtract that from a THAC0 of say 15, it makes it really hard to comprehend that when you take 15 and subtract 12 it means a character hits AC 3 (and above).

Man grade-school math is hard! :-P

Sovereign Court

Not hard, just counter intuitive. :P

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Yeah, sometimes rolling high is good, sometimes it's bad, and sometimes it's really confusing remembering which is which.

And pretty much all the non-spellcasters are pretty much the same.


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Digitalelf wrote:
bookrat wrote:
Teaching them THAC0 was a challenge all on its own. There was a lot of "Dear God why would someone design it like this?!" :)

I know, right... You roll like a 12 on a d20 and then subtract that from a THAC0 of say 15, it makes it really hard to comprehend that when you take 15 and subtract 12 it means a character hits AC 3 (and above).

Man grade-school math is hard! :-P

To be fair, there were negative ACs, and I wasn't taught about negative numbers until junior high. Actually, I understood negative numbers very easily because of all the D&D I'd played. Waste of time, Dad? Waste of time?!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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I think in 4th, 5th, or 6th grade, I figured out you could use multiplication tables to figure out the areas of rectangles.

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