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Hello fellow gms.. and rules lawyers.
I have a odd question. I have a player who created a Bloodrager with Draconic bloodline and my question comes down to the claws.
So the Bloodrager bloodline states "These claws are treated as natural weapons, allowing you to make two claw attacks as a full attack, using your full base attack bonus"
but if you look at natural weapons it specifically calls out. That there are primary and secondary( off hand natural weapons)
"Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and add the creature’s full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature’s base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls"
So I guess the question really is.
Does the second attack take the -5 for being a secondary(off hand) attack. and it should only get half of the str bonus also ?
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Creatures can have multiple primary attacks and multiple secondary attacks. Secondary attacks are usually things like tail slaps, wing buffets, etc. whereas claws, bites, and slams are almost always primary. Now if you're using a weapon, ANY natural attacks you do along with it become secondary. So if your bloodrager swings a sword in one hand and takes a claw swipe with the other, that claw will be at -5 and half strength bonus. But if he just uses his two claws, then he gets full attack bonus and full strength out of them.
Under the topic of Natural Attacks in the rules:
Natural AttacksAttacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
Based on that, and the fact that they are not designated as secondary in the bloodline power description, I'd say treat the claws as primary when attacking with just natural weapons. I'd also say you should treat them as secondary if also attacking with a something else (like a longsword).
Its rather odd that the Ratfolk claws feat clearly shows them as primary. But the bloodline ability lacks this wording
perhaps just an oversight ?
Sometimes the game contains redundant easy to find information. Sometimes it doesn't.
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So I guess the question really is.
Does the second attack take the -5 for being a secondary(off hand) attack. and it should only get half of the str bonus also ?
Natural attacks have no main-hand or off-hand. Natural attacks are either primary or secondary, based usually on the type of attack made. By default, claws are primary atacks, so both claw attacks will be made with the characters full BAB.
A natural attacker is granted a single attack per "limb" or natural attack she has available (an attacker may perfectly have several "copies" of the same attack, in case of your bloodrager, she will have two separate sets of claws, one on each arm), and she does not gain iterative attacks from high BAB; thus, a creature with claws on each hand will attack two times, but cannot chose to attack twice with the same hand (for example, to benefit from a Magic Fang spell cast in one of her claws), she has to attack once with each claw.
Spells and abilities that grant extra attacks (like haste) still work normally (so your hasted bloodrager would attack thrice at +6, able to chose what claw she'll use for the third attack)
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Does the second attack take the -5 for being a secondary(off hand) attack. and it should only get half of the str bonus also ?
If you are pairing natural attacks, you use the rules for multiple natural attacks. In alternative, you can use a single natural attack as a paired light weapon for use with manufactured weapons - in this case, we use the two weapon fighting rules.