Alignments, alignment subtypes and templates?


Advice


Alright so I'm playing a human half fiend succubus sorcerer and so I am humanoid outsider native is my understanding. My alignment for a reasons it would take too long to explain is LG which works because i'm a native outsider but I don't understand the alignment subtypes that extraplanar outsides have other than that they count as that alignment. So what affects me because of my alignment and type? Do clerics do more damage because I'm an outsider even though I'm not evil? A general explaination of the whole system would be appreciated


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

First of all, you are not a humanoid. The half fiend template replaces the humanoid type with the outsider type. This is a bit of a double-edged sword. However, you would retain the human subtype even though you are no longer humanoid (aren't technicalities nice?).

As to the alignment subtype question, you're currently sitting in a weird edge case of the rules and different spells and abilities will interact with you differently. For instance, the Holy Word spell will treat you as a good-aligned creature and you will suffer no ill effect, but a Paladin's Smite Evil will treat you as an evil creature and you take the full brunt of it. You have to read each ability to see if it works based on your alignment (which is lawful good) or has an effect based on alignment subtype (which is chaotic evil), and that can differ from one ability to the next.

Bottom line, the rules were written with the presumption that creatures with the evil subtype are always evil-aligned, and any exceptions exist by the discretion of the GM and can be adjudicated accordingly. And then you have alignment auras on top of this.


Dasrak wrote:

First of all, you are not a humanoid. The half fiend template replaces the humanoid type with the outsider type. This is a bit of a double-edged sword. However, you would retain the human subtype even though you are no longer humanoid (aren't technicalities nice?).

As to the alignment subtype question, you're currently sitting in a weird edge case of the rules and different spells and abilities will interact with you differently. For instance, the Holy Word spell will treat you as a good-aligned creature and you will suffer no ill effect, but a Paladin's Smite Evil will treat you as an evil creature and you take the full brunt of it. You have to read each ability to see if it works based on your alignment (which is lawful good) or has an effect based on alignment subtype (which is chaotic evil), and that can differ from one ability to the next.

Bottom line, the rules were written with the presumption that creatures with the evil subtype are always evil-aligned, and any exceptions exist by the discretion of the GM and can be adjudicated accordingly. And then you have alignment auras on top of this.

ok do I have an alignment subtype? I didn't include it as it doesn't say anything in the template "Type: The creature’s type changes to outsider (native). Do not recalculate HD, BAB, or saves." to clarify I am the DM this is merely my character when I have a guest DM


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My apologies, you're right; the half-fiend template doesn't grant you the evil subtype. So you don't count as evil at all.


Oh, and you would be Outsider, Native, not Outsider, Human.
An Aasimar or Tiefling has to take a trait to also act as a human, I imagine that that would also be the case for half fiends and half celestials.


Ok so it doesn't seem like I am vulnerable to anything really, which sounds like an oversight on Paizo's part considering the description of the template "Half-fiends are creatures heavily tainted with demonic, infernal, or other evil power" and a an atonement spell can reverse the alignment change if you don't want to be evil. honestly just sounds like a straight upgrade to me, I might as a DM just give the template the evil subtype for balance :/


Namazu,

A certain degree of invulnerability is part and parcel of Outsiders. Note that a lot of spells and effects don't really care what you are, and some actually work specifically against outsiders.

If your table actually deals with such issues, bearing physical signs of your "taint" is certainly enough to get you in trouble, hence traits and feats that allow you to pass for normal.

If you have a GM who doesn't deal with anything resembling social interaction, the yes, the template is just an upgrade. I would keep my eye out for a more interesting game, until then, happy pounding.


Daw wrote:

Namazu,

A certain degree of invulnerability is part and parcel of Outsiders. Note that a lot of spells and effects don't really care what you are, and some actually work specifically against outsiders.

If your table actually deals with such issues, bearing physical signs of your "taint" is certainly enough to get you in trouble, hence traits and feats that allow you to pass for normal.

If you have a GM who doesn't deal with anything resembling social interaction, the yes, the template is just an upgrade. I would keep my eye out for a more interesting game, until then, happy pounding.

That's true, however as I have very high cha score of 25 I really don't need to worry as my magic and disguise are high enough as well as I have put points into bluff and diplomacy so honestly I'm very much able to hide my demonic nature. it just seems strange to me that dispite being so heavily tainted with evil I don't take any of the penalties for it as well as not being able to be banished from the material plane or dealt more damage by certain cleric spells that target undead and evil outider


True that you can't be banished from the Material Plane, but you are certainly subject to being captured/bound if someone of power finds you interesting enough.


still I'm inclined to give myself the evil subtype as i don't think the drawbacks should come about only in a social situation assuming I role a lousy diguise check or alter self wears off at a bad time and I think that it would honestly make sense being tainted with evil would do that


you can have a subtype and not be of that alignment yes, how exaclty do you plan on getting the evil subtype? and why would you want it?


Lady-J wrote:
you can have a subtype and not be of that alignment yes, how exaclty do you plan on getting the evil subtype? and why would you want it?

I'm the almighty DM, I want it for balance reasons as by itself the template seems like just a straight upgrade with none of the weaknesses of being a demon


King_Namazu wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
you can have a subtype and not be of that alignment yes, how exaclty do you plan on getting the evil subtype? and why would you want it?
I'm the almighty DM, I want it for balance reasons as by itself the template seems like just a straight upgrade with none of the weaknesses of being a demon

naitive outsiders is alredy quite hindersome in certain situations, the template is alredy balenced, most templates are suposta be an upgrade, there are many many features that the template doesnt cover that it would be strait up better to be a demon +18 to multiple stats yes please immunities to tons of different things, at will spell like abilities, the half fiend is in no way equivilent to actually being a demon.


There also seems to be a misconception of the template. You are descended from something evil but you aren't inherently evil yourself.
Being a native outsider still subjects one to certain spells and if you're running/playing a good aligned campaign why are there no antipaladin?
Being what you're being though you will automatically be seen as dirty and unclean, in a roleplaying sense, and you will be treated as such, but any normal Paladin who attempts to smite you will find his smite to have no effect.
However, a magic user needed some demonic blood for a spell might hunt you down to sacrifice you as it doesn't matter what your alignment is for the spell; just that you have demonic blood.
Tieflings aren't so unheard of that being descended from a succubus would be completely unheard of.
You could take a page from wizards of the coast, I know that's slightly taboo, but they made two alternate Paladin classes in the unearthed arcana book. Paladin of freedom (CG) and Paladin of Tyranny (LE). Which both gain their smite abilities for alignment, smite law/chaos respectively.


downsides to being an outsider are things like spells with the humanoid description don't work on you - like enlarge person, though it also means other x Person spells don't work (charm person, dominate person) - so not bad if you're not melee with a low will save


Templates by their nature are usually straight upgrades. Trying to balance it does not really make a lot of sense. Keep in mind that Templates were never designed to be used for PC’s. They were designed to allow the GM to create unique advisories for the PC’s. You should only use templates if everyone gets one or there will be huge imbalances in the game.

I noticed in your post you state you are playing the character. If this is a GM PC I would strongly advise against it. Using a GM PC is dangerous enough, but making it stronger than the PC is a very bad idea. There is simply no way to balance a templated character vs one who does not have a similar template. I have seen multiple campaigns ruined because of this type of situation.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Templates by their nature are usually straight upgrades. Trying to balance it does not really make a lot of sense. Keep in mind that Templates were never designed to be used for PC’s. They were designed to allow the GM to create unique advisories for the PC’s. You should only use templates if everyone gets one or there will be huge imbalances in the game.

I noticed in your post you state you are playing the character. If this is a GM PC I would strongly advise against it. Using a GM PC is dangerous enough, but making it stronger than the PC is a very bad idea. There is simply no way to balance a templated character vs one who does not have a similar template. I have seen multiple campaigns ruined because of this type of situation.

Actually there's an entire paizo page about the rituals to become a half fiend and how to do them so yeah it kinda was meant to be used on PCs and there are many that paizo has said can be including vampirism and lycanthropy, I have ways to balance this obviously one of them being the "Freaks" or more accurately templated PCs in this campaign have to basically wear an explosive collar and have another PC be their handler with the detonation remote as well as in this campaign much of the world is racist against them. My character doesn't know they are a half fiend for backstory reasons I'm not going to explain. so I basically always have my alter self spell like ability on and no way to turn it off so I lose out on the natural attacks and the fly speed which is a fair trade imo. basically the price of these templates are steep in this campaign and not every bloke is going to have one but that's what makes my "monster hunter" campaign special to my players, doing battle with monsters and working along side some of the domesticated ones as well as the possibility of trading their humanity and in some cases freedoms for power.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder RPG / Advice / Alignments, alignment subtypes and templates? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.