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Instant Enemy ranger spell clarification needed


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting Subscriber

Instant Enemy is an enchantment that targets one creature and has the following effect:

Quote:
With this spell you designate the target as your favored enemy for the remainder of its duration. Select one of your favored enemy types. For the duration of the spell, you treat the target as if it were that type of favored enemy for all purposes.

In a Paizo forums discussion on this very subject, we have the following quote from Owen Stephens:

Quote:

This is not an official response, BUT.

RAW says the target is treated as "that type of favored enemy," not that type of CREATURE. So if an effect or ability triggers off a favored enemy, then yes it applies. But animal growth requires a creature to be a type of creature (animal), it does not care if the target is a specific kind of favored enemy. That's parsing, but I am am very comfortable with it even as a RAW solution.

What exactly does the spell mean when it says 'all purposes'?

So, do we have any official answer on how this spell should work?


4 people marked this as a favorite.

The spell is clearly intended to function as a way to get favored enemy on creatures which are not one of your favored enemies.

The "treat the target as if" wording is in order to allow you to use any abilities which are keyed off of Favored Enemy.

Using it to try to sidestep targeting restrictions of Animal Growth (or any other effect that is unrelated to the Favored Enemy ability) is obviously outside of the intent of the spell, regardless of what the actual RAW may or may not be.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Gauss wrote:

The spell is clearly intended to function as a way to get favored enemy on creatures which are not one of your favored enemies.

The "treat the target as if" wording is in order to allow you to use any abilities which are keyed off of Favored Enemy.

Using it to try to sidestep targeting restrictions of Animal Growth (or any other effect that is unrelated to the Favored Enemy ability) is obviously outside of the intent of the spell, regardless of what the actual RAW may or may not be.

*nods*


I agree with the above. Also, this spell should really be a personal spell. The way it's written you are enchanting a creature to act like your favored enemy but in reality you are just learning how to better fight an enemy as if you had trained on it. Seems like an error to me.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
drumlord wrote:
I agree with the above. Also, this spell should really be a personal spell. The way it's written you are enchanting a creature to act like your favored enemy but in reality you are just learning how to better fight an enemy as if you had trained on it. Seems like an error to me.

Not really, the spell affects a single target, and the target is now vulnerable to your FE bonuses and abilities. Probably why it's an Enchantment spell.

If you have FE: Human and you cast IE on a Elf you don't all of a sudden have Favored Enemy: Elf, you just get to use your FE: H bonuses on it.

The Exchange

Rysky wrote:
drumlord wrote:
I agree with the above. Also, this spell should really be a personal spell. The way it's written you are enchanting a creature to act like your favored enemy but in reality you are just learning how to better fight an enemy as if you had trained on it. Seems like an error to me.

Not really, the spell affects a single target, and the target is now vulnerable to your FE bonuses and abilities. Probably why it's an Enchantment spell.

If you have FE: Human and you cast IE on a Elf you don't all of a sudden have Favored Enemy: Elf, you just get to use your FE: H bonuses on it.

And yet wrath - which also only relates to one creature you can see - is a personal range enchantment spell.

It's a bit inconsistent. They appear in the same book (APG) after all. Maybe the next printing will reconcile them. My vote is for personal.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Belafon wrote:
Rysky wrote:
drumlord wrote:
I agree with the above. Also, this spell should really be a personal spell. The way it's written you are enchanting a creature to act like your favored enemy but in reality you are just learning how to better fight an enemy as if you had trained on it. Seems like an error to me.

Not really, the spell affects a single target, and the target is now vulnerable to your FE bonuses and abilities. Probably why it's an Enchantment spell.

If you have FE: Human and you cast IE on a Elf you don't all of a sudden have Favored Enemy: Elf, you just get to use your FE: H bonuses on it.

And yet wrath - which also only relates to one creature you can see - is a personal range enchantment spell.

It's a bit inconsistent. They appear in the same book (APG) after all. Maybe the next printing will reconcile them. My vote is for personal.

Hmmm, good point. Interesting...


Instant enemy is already borderline overpowered. It doesn't need to be improved any.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I suspect from a design perspective making it a targeted spell with close range might be meant to keep the spell somewhat under control. Imagine a ranger archer who could declare an instant enemy from a couple hundred feet away...

And setting it to Range: Close enables you to scale it with levels, as opposed to including "pick one enemy w/in X feet..." language in the body of the spell.

That is, of course, total speculation based on virtually nothing at all. I'll do quibblepenance later for it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rysky wrote:

Not really, the spell affects a single target, and the target is now vulnerable to your FE bonuses and abilities. Probably why it's an Enchantment spell.

If you have FE: Human and you cast IE on a Elf you don't all of a sudden have Favored Enemy: Elf, you just get to use your FE: H bonuses on it.

I agree that that's how the spell reads. I'm just saying to me, it seems like an error (or just not thought out thoroughly). There are some unusual interactions the way it works now:

- It doesn't work on Taiga giants (though this could easily be considered more of a problem with Taiga giants having enchantment immunity)
- It doesn't go through globe of invulnerability or anti-magic field
- My favorite: if you use it on an enemy with spell turning or a reflecting shield, you now get your favored enemy bonus against yourself. You are your own worst enemy

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
drumlord wrote:
Rysky wrote:

Not really, the spell affects a single target, and the target is now vulnerable to your FE bonuses and abilities. Probably why it's an Enchantment spell.

If you have FE: Human and you cast IE on a Elf you don't all of a sudden have Favored Enemy: Elf, you just get to use your FE: H bonuses on it.

I agree that that's how the spell reads. I'm just saying to me, it seems like an error (or just not thought out thoroughly). There are some unusual interactions the way it works now:

- It doesn't work on Taiga giants (though this could easily be considered more of a problem with Taiga giants having enchantment immunity)
- It doesn't go through globe of invulnerability or anti-magic field
- My favorite: if you use it on an enemy with spell turning or a reflecting shield, you now get your favored enemy bonus against yourself. You are your own worst enemy

That could be why they made it a target spell, rather than personal, so a bunch of different things would have defenses against it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

It's that damn Taiga Giant Lobby again!

*shakes tiny fist in impotent fury*


I wish I could help you, but having banned the spell for being too cheezy I have nothing positive to add.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
drumlord wrote:
Rysky wrote:

Not really, the spell affects a single target, and the target is now vulnerable to your FE bonuses and abilities. Probably why it's an Enchantment spell.

If you have FE: Human and you cast IE on a Elf you don't all of a sudden have Favored Enemy: Elf, you just get to use your FE: H bonuses on it.

I agree that that's how the spell reads. I'm just saying to me, it seems like an error (or just not thought out thoroughly). There are some unusual interactions the way it works now:

- It doesn't work on Taiga giants (though this could easily be considered more of a problem with Taiga giants having enchantment immunity)
- It doesn't go through globe of invulnerability or anti-magic field
- My favorite: if you use it on an enemy with spell turning or a reflecting shield, you now get your favored enemy bonus against yourself. You are your own worst enemy

That could be why they made it a target spell, rather than personal, so a bunch of different things would have defenses against it.

Oh! And it could also so that for those same creatures that are immune to enchantment can use it against others. High level antagonist rangers in modules probably make good use of it depending on the party makeup.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rysky wrote:
Oh! And it could also so that for those same creatures that are immune to enchantment can use it against others. High level antagonist rangers in modules probably make good use of it depending on the party makeup.

Shhhhh! You might give the designers ideas!

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
quibblemuch wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Oh! And it could also so that for those same creatures that are immune to enchantment can use it against others. High level antagonist rangers in modules probably make good use of it depending on the party makeup.
Shhhhh! You might give the designers ideas!

Take them! Take them and use them wantonly!


2 people marked this as a favorite.
drumlord wrote:


- It doesn't work on Taiga giants (though this could easily be considered more of a problem with Taiga giants having enchantment immunity)

Per the CRB: "All enchantments are mind-affecting spells".

Therefore all creatures immune to mind-affecting effects (e.g. constructs, plants, undead,vermin, etc) should be immune to Instant Enemy.


Bacondale wrote:
drumlord wrote:


- It doesn't work on Taiga giants (though this could easily be considered more of a problem with Taiga giants having enchantment immunity)

Per the CRB: "All enchantments are mind-affecting spells".

Therefore all creatures immune to mind-affecting effects (e.g. constructs, plants, undead,vermin, etc) should be immune to Instant Enemy.

Whoa!

Good catch! This just got interesting...

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
quibblemuch wrote:
Bacondale wrote:
drumlord wrote:


- It doesn't work on Taiga giants (though this could easily be considered more of a problem with Taiga giants having enchantment immunity)

Per the CRB: "All enchantments are mind-affecting spells".

Therefore all creatures immune to mind-affecting effects (e.g. constructs, plants, undead,vermin, etc) should be immune to Instant Enemy.

Whoa!

Good catch! This just got interesting...

*nods*

Undead Rangers on the other hand can use it on humans all day long :3


You know, I was too lazy to look that up, assuming that would not be the case since they tag most enchantment spells with mind-affecting. Good to know!

I guess my next character will be a plant ranger


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Lesson here: select Favored Enemies that are immune to enchantment and then use Instant Enemy for all others. :)

Sovereign Court

Gauss wrote:
Lesson here: select Favored Enemies that are immune to enchantment and then use Instant Enemy for all others. :)

Well, Constructs and Undead were always solid choices for Favored Enemy anyway.

Since you have to pick multiple favored enemies as you level up, and Instant Enemy only works on creatures that aren't already your favored enemy - might as well pick them as your second and third enemies.


It would make more sense as a personal divination spell allowing you to detect a creature's weaknesses as if they were your favoured enemy.


Bacondale wrote:
It would make more sense as a personal divination spell allowing you to detect a creature's weaknesses as if they were your favoured enemy.

Welcome to Pathfinder! As a new player you will find many rules that don't make sense. This is normal, just nod your head, smile, and pretend that the nonsensical rules make sense.

(Yes, this is a joke, sorta.)

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