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Martial Weapon Proficiency and Two handed use of exotic weapons


Advice


This sounds really stupid (I hope), but I am trying to explain things to some people at PCGEN.

I know the Bastard Sword can be used two-handed without proficiency. But they have it in their program, as a weapon proficiency. They have the same thing for the Dwarven Waraxe and the Katana.

I have told them that yes they can give them to a character as long as they are used two handed, but they are listing these weapons under weapon PROFICIENCIES.

But they have to have EWP. So far they have missed the point. They point out what the text says that the weapons can be used two handed as Martial weapons (though the Katana is obvious). I think they are wrong. It's like butting heads with a GM and he's right but I'm not.

Any Ideas?

Not sure if I am in the right place. Maybe moved?


According to the SRD (Axe:http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/waraxe-d warven/) (katana: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/katana/) they can be used 2H without EWP. So it looks like they are right, unless I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to get at.


First off, I am willing to be wrong. I just want to get my facts straight.

In the program, A first level fighter has proficiency with Katana, Bastard Sword and Dwarven Battle Axe (among many other weapons)

I was of the understanding that yes you can use any of these weapons two handed without proficiency but at a -4 to attack.

I do not see a proficiency to use these weapons two handed to negate the -4 to attack.

On the other hand are they just saving space because it's obvious?


From the PRD: "A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon" and "A Medium character can use a dwarven waraxe two-handed as a martial weapon" and "Characters can use a katana two-handed as a martial weapon, but must take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (katana) feat to use it one-handed."

Fighters have Martial Weapon Proficiency. Ergo, fighters can use a bastard sword or dwarven waraxe or a katana two-handed without a -4 penalty. Because two-handed, those are all martial weapons. Which fighters have proficiency in.

PCGEN may or may not follow the rules in their implementation of these weapons. But the rules are that there is no non-proficiency penalty, if you use them two-handed and you have Martial Weapon Proficiency.


There is only a -4 penalty if you don't have the Martial Weapons proficiency.

Some classes have that feat automatically. Characters in other classes can take that feat.

If you don't have the feat, there is a -4 penalty for using a Martial weapon.

Sometimes those weapons need an Exotic Weapon proficiency (when being used one handed). Sometimes those weapons need a Martial Weapon proficiency (when being used two-handed).

If you don't have the correct proficiency, you take the penalty.

ETA
Except that FAQ 2 below says you can't wield it at all one-handed even with a penalty, unless you have Exotic Weapon proficiency.


Quibblemuch is pretty much on the dot.

In those 3 cases any class that has access to Martial Weapons can use those weapon 2 handed with no penalty (but would suffer a penalty if using them 1 handed).

Anyone spending a feat to gain Exotic Weapon Proficiency(X) can use them 1 at no penalty (class without Martial Weapon must also take the Martial Weapon proficiency(X) feat to use it 2 handed without penalty).

Here are the Relevant FAQ: FAQ 1 and FAQ 2


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Andre Roy wrote:

Quibblemuch is pretty much on the dot.

In those 3 cases any class that has access to Martial Weapons can use those weapon 2 handed with no penalty (but would suffer a penalty if using them 1 handed).

That second FAQ looks like you can't even wield it one handed unless you have EWP.

Without that special training, wielding a bastard sword one-handed is as impossible as wielding a greatsword one-handed.(The same goes for other weapons with this one-handed exotic exception...)


Huh. Live and learn.

Not that it's ever come up. Most players look at a -4 non-proficiency penalty and melodramatically scream "NOOOOOOO!" in slow motion. But good to know that they can't even try.


CrystalSeas wrote:
Andre Roy wrote:

Quibblemuch is pretty much on the dot.

In those 3 cases any class that has access to Martial Weapons can use those weapon 2 handed with no penalty (but would suffer a penalty if using them 1 handed).

That second FAQ looks like you can't even wield it one handed unless you have EWP.

Without that special training, wielding a bastard sword one-handed is as impossible as wielding a greatsword one-handed.(The same goes for other weapons with this one-handed exotic exception...)

Well I'll be damned! I didn't even registered it, but now that you mention it, it would seem that you are correct.


Quote:
Sword, Bastard: A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.
Quote:
Waraxe, Dwarven: A dwarven waraxe has a large, ornate head mounted to a thick handle, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A Medium character can use a dwarven waraxe two-handed as a martial weapon, or a Large creature can use it one-handed in the same way. A dwarf treats a dwarven waraxe as a martial weapon even when using it in one hand.

It's in the weapons' description.


Well, I was pretty sure I was right. It's a good thing I'm not a GM :)

Thanks.


One more clarifying point: you can wield a weapon that is normally usable in one hande in two with no penalty or change in weapon proficiency, a character without martial weapon proficiencies who takes EWP bastard sword can wield it in two hands, just like he can with a morningstar, and suffer no penalties for doing so.


ngc7293 wrote:
This sounds really stupid (I hope), but I am trying to explain things to some people at PCGEN.

The question wasn't stupid. It's been asked in various ways for 17 years. Not doing a search for the answer was, well, short-sighted, if any thing.

What I find disturbing is that you're upset because a FREE, volunteer-only program that's been around for going on 8 years didn't conform to your interpretation of the rules so you came here to complain. They work hard for no money. Just love of the game! If you run into any more quibbles with those fine folks, PLEASE don't mention them in your future posts. Trying to make them look foolish or stupid reflects poorly on you and upsets those of us who appreciate their work!

Personally, I love PCGEN! It has bugs, sure, but they fix them when you find them, and I can add my own toys to a game with a little light coding work. If I had time I would volunteer to add more books to the program. That's MY biggest complaint with PCGEN - I can't find time to help them! So kindly back off, or better yet, apologize to whomever it was over there you got in an argument with. I'm sure they have enough headaches translating the game into Java without people yelling at them.


rkr1970 wrote:
ngc7293 wrote:
This sounds really stupid (I hope), but I am trying to explain things to some people at PCGEN.

The question wasn't stupid. It's been asked in various ways for 17 years. Not doing a search for the answer was, well, short-sighted, if any thing.

What I find disturbing is that you're upset because a FREE, volunteer-only program that's been around for going on 8 years didn't conform to your interpretation of the rules so you came here to complain. They work hard for no money. Just love of the game! If you run into any more quibbles with those fine folks, PLEASE don't mention them in your future posts. Trying to make them look foolish or stupid reflects poorly on you and upsets those of us who appreciate their work!

Personally, I love PCGEN! It has bugs, sure, but they fix them when you find them, and I can add my own toys to a game with a little light coding work. If I had time I would volunteer to add more books to the program. That's MY biggest complaint with PCGEN - I can't find time to help them! So kindly back off, or better yet, apologize to whomever it was over there you got in an argument with. I'm sure they have enough headaches translating the game into Java without people yelling at them.

I saw no mention of an argument or anything negative said about PCGEN in the OP.


rkr1970 wrote:
ngc7293 wrote:
What I find disturbing is that you're upset because a FREE, volunteer-only program that's been around for going on 8 years didn't conform to your interpretation of the rules so you came here to complain.

We get questions and issues like this quite often, usually it's because the user wasn't aware of a rule that PCGen was enforcing or they didn't use (Encumbrance and Weight limits, I'm looking at you). But we are occasionally wrong so being questioned is good. :)

And a little quibble, first release was in Aug of 2001 I believe. So 16 years :)


Nylanfs wrote:
And a little quibble, first release was in Aug of 2001 I believe. So 16 years :)

August 1, 2000

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'll echo the appreciation for PCGen. I've posted a few minor bug reports over the years - some were fixed in no time, some were pointed out as already fixed in an unreleased version, and some were pointed out as me being dumb.

Keep up the great work.


I don't use PCgen, but based on what I just learned about it here, I think it, and the folks who work on it, rock. That is all.

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