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Rob of Needles - Questions


Rules Questions


ROBE OF NEEDLES
Price 1,000 gp; Aura faint evocation; CL5th; Weight 4 lbs.
This dark, hooded robe has six long, silvery, razor-sharp needles protruding from the bottom of its loose sleeves, three on each side. The wearer can launch one needle as a ranged touch attack. The needle counts as a thrown weapon with a range increment of 10 feet. If the needle hits, it embeds itself in the target's flesh, dealing 1 point of piercing damage and 1 point of bleed damage. A creature can pull out the needle as a full-round action, which ends the bleed effect. The needle is destroyed if an attack with it misses or when it is removed from a creature it was embedded in. The robe regrows all spent needles each morning.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Cost 500 gp
Craft Wondrous Item, bleed

1) Can the needles be buffed by spells or items? Example: Magic Weapon or Weapon Blanch.
1a) If they can be buffed by spells or items, are they treated as weapons or Ammunition?

2) There's debate on what kind of action the Robe of Needles takes to toss the needles if you can make more then one attack as a full round action.
Was wondering if you could pull the 6 needles out, store them, and then using the Feat: Quick Draw, toss multiple needles?

I know to expect table variations on this but want to get a feeling of the general public opinion.


1) they exist before being launched and you can see them, they're not created at the time of launching, so I'd say yes.
1a) they're treated as thrown weapons and have no wording about being treated as ammunition as shuriken do.

2) while they're treated as thrown weapons you don't actually throw them - they're launched by the robe. Remove them and you have needles but probably not fancy touch attack needles. Their exact properties would be up to your GM.


This looks like an incredibly poorly written item! Whose attack bonus, the wearer's or the robe's? Well, since the robe hasn't been given one, I assume it's the wearer's. With or without a non-proficiency penalty? I hope without, which makes me assume that indeed, the robe does the throwing. But that's an awful lot of "assume"s!

Based on the location of the needles, I'm picturing the wearer pointing at a target and activating the robe, and the needle shooting out from the sleeve. In this case, you would have to spend the normal standard action to activate a wondrous item, given that nothing less is specified. And your ability to use your pointing finger to guide the attack (your attack bonus with ranged attacks) would apply. However, there's some good news: you don't have to be proficient in such attacks, and you don't have to spend an action drawing a needle.

Getting multiple needle attacks with a 6+ BAB would require Quick Draw to work at all, but I don't see how removing the needles ahead of time would help. IF the GM will let you throw them yourself, you could argue you have 6 magical darts on tap, renewed daily, stored conveniently in the robe's sleeves. You'll need proficiency in the needles -- or maybe darts? -- and the Quick Draw feat, on top of that 6+ BAB. Is it worth it to you to ask the GM about it?

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Matt2VK wrote:

ROBE OF NEEDLES

{snip description}
1) Can the needles be buffed by spells or items? Example: Magic Weapon or Weapon Blanch.
1a) If they can be buffed by spells or items, are they treated as weapons or Ammunition?

2) There's debate on what kind of action the Robe of Needles takes to toss the needles if you can make more then one attack as a full round action.
Was wondering if you could pull the 6 needles out, store them, and then using the Feat: Quick Draw, toss multiple needles?

I know to expect table variations on this but want to get a feeling of the general public opinion.

there should not be much table variation but it does deal with magic items, thrown weapons, and spells. It's pretty clear but there are some assumptions that have to be made to fill in the blanks.

1) yes, the needles can be targeted by spells such as Magic Weapon. The text clearly states they are thrown weapons, so one Magic Weapon per needle. As no modifiers are listed assume the weapon is non-masterwork, light, properly sized for the wearer, not a monk weapon, and that the wearer of the robe is proficient in their use -whew- .
Like Magic Weapon, Weapon Blanch would affect one needle. So long as a character does not use the needle, the weapon blanch should stay on that needle, so write down which one the PC applies it to.

Thrown Weapon, PRD:
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

2) it is a standard ranged touch attack, so standard action. Leaving the needles on the robe ensures that they are there for the taking(launching) without needing to retrieve them. Picking them early means the character may have to draw a weapon as part of a move actn or do something to get one in hand. Avoid a feat and the extra actions by just leaving the needles on the robe.

Pedantically, the item description prevents launching/throwing more than 1 per round be it plucked or previously plucked. GMs will also assume that there can be up to 6 at any one time. So picking six on day 1 and bottling them still only gives the owner 6 on day 2. GMs will assume the "extras" disappear. Magic items are a bit funky.

In PFS you could not buy the thrown needles as they are not normal items, nor sell them at half as they have no value.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I prefer his brother, Tom of Needles.


Azothath, if the wearer throws the needle, then they get their Strength bonus, sure. BUT also a non-proficiency penalty to the attack. (Unless they buy proficiency.)

I'd prefer to say that the robe throws the needles (normally), and you don't get either one. You get the damage listed: 1 pt of piercing, 1 pt of bleed.

It's certainly not a monk weapon. But what about a roguish one? I mean, if a rogue throws the needle (Strength bonus, proficiency fuss, and draw action included), they should reasonably get sneak attack damage if it would apply. But what if the robe throws the needle?

One other caution: as a GM, I'd look with extreme disfavor on someone who, let's say, acquired 4 of these robes, with the idea of having 6 needles to throw, and then another 6 after a full-round action of donning a new robe. I think you'd find that you had to wear a given robe for over 12 hours to get the needles to refresh in the morning!


Monk Needles lol, this is way more than a standard action's worth of time.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I am going to disagree with the majority for question one. Upon activation (a standard action) 'The needle counts as a thrown weapon.' before that, it is indeterminate exactly what, if anything, it should count as (really at that point the 'needle' is just part of the robe, not a separate object at all.) Therefore, they are not valid targets for a spell that targets a weapon (except in the very brief time between when the robe is activated and the needle attack is resolved.) The needles are probably also not valid targets for any spell that targets an object, although the robe as a whole would be.

Question two is similar, in that the needles are not something separate from the robe until the robe is activated. You can't just 'pull out' a needle, that would be damaging the robe, the needle only becomes its own separate thing when the robe is activated, and then relatively shortly afterwards, it ceases to be a thing again, as it is destroyed.


So (barring a merciful and perhaps gullible GM), the robe generates a needle and throws it for you after you activate it (standard action), using your ability to point and aim. Clearly, with no Strength bonus! But does this qualify for precision damage? Does a Ray of Frost qualify? (My mind is racing, trying to find any reason whatsoever to buy this turkey!)

Sovereign Court

Even though its "1" damage, its still a "damage roll".

I've seen it to great effect on a level 3 ninja. Vanish, Touch Attack Needle for 1+2d6.


Still lurking around here :D

I always assumed you got to add any Strength modifier to the damage the needle does. Now I'm beginning to wonder...

More curious on answers to *buff* the needles to help get through DR.

From people's opinions, it's sounding like Weapon Blanches will be a almost worthless to use with the Robe. But...

Would these Needles be counted as magical for DR/Magic?
Since the needles are coming from a magic item.


Matt2VK wrote:

Would these Needles be counted as magical for DR/Magic?

Since the needles are coming from a magic item.

I'd count it as a magical attack.

{Added:} Which is why I question sneak attack. Ray of Frost wouldn't work for the ninja, Firebug, as is revealed by an ability that the Arcane Trickster gets...

Core under Arcane Trickster wrote:
Surprise Spells: At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.


bitter lily wrote:
Matt2VK wrote:

Would these Needles be counted as magical for DR/Magic?

Since the needles are coming from a magic item.

I'd count it as a magical attack.

{Added:} Which is why I question sneak attack. Ray of Frost wouldn't work for the ninja, Firebug, as is revealed by an ability that the Arcane Trickster gets...

Core under Arcane Trickster wrote:
Surprise Spells: At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.

bitter lily,

The 10th level Arcane Trickster ability works with every spell that deals damage. Even Fireball. Usually you have to make a attack roll and hit to apply SA damage. The Surprise Spell ability is a way to get around making that attack roll.

At least that's how I've always seen it ruled.


bitter lily wrote:
Matt2VK wrote:

Would these Needles be counted as magical for DR/Magic?

Since the needles are coming from a magic item.

I'd count it as a magical attack.

{Added:} Which is why I question sneak attack. Ray of Frost wouldn't work for the ninja, Firebug, as is revealed by an ability that the Arcane Trickster gets...

Core under Arcane Trickster wrote:
Surprise Spells: At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.

The arcane trickster surprise spells is for things like magic missile, fireball, and other spells that deal damage but do not require attack rolls.

Sneak attack can certainly be applied to rays (but only one ray in the case of a spell that has multiple simultaneous rays).

Because the needle requires an attack roll, and deals damage, sneak attack benefits apply. Because it is a thrown weapon, strength bonus/penalty applies (since we are not told to treat it any differently from other thrown weapons).

As to how many needles can be thrown in a round, that is murky to me. "The wearer can launch one needle as a ranged touch attack" - is that the activation?, in which case a full attack would allow launching multiple needles. Or is activation a standard, which in turn gives you a ranged touch attack you get to make as part of the standard?


Matt2VK & bbangerter, thanks for clarifying precision damage on rays for me! Then yes, the robe would qualify -- and might find a market.

bbangerter, I still cannot see how the robe is using the wearer's Strength. But if it is, why isn't it using the wearer's proficiencies? To me, if you want the bonus to damage, you gotta take the penalty to to-hit -- or mitigate it somehow.

It really is a badly written item.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

similar items;
Robe of Stars

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