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Advanced Weapon Training Question


Rules Questions


For Weapon Specialist, could I then retrain the feats I picked for other feats and basically use weapon specialist as a place holder for weapon focus/specialization.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Can't retrain a feat that is a prerequisite for another feat or ability.


DarkAtlas89 wrote:

For Weapon Specialist, could I then retrain the feats I picked for other feats and basically use weapon specialist as a place holder for weapon focus/specialization.

You'd need at least one Weapon Focus/Specialization left.

Weapon Specialist lets you select a feat that you have and count as if you had the corresponding feat for every weapon in your selected weapon group.

So say you for some reason have both Weapon Focus (whip) and Weapon Focus (morningstar). One of your other feats is Whip Master which requires you to have Weapon Focus (whip). You also have Stage Combatant which you can use to let your morningstar deal non-lethal damage, since you have Weapon Focus (morningstar).

Then you pick Flails as your group for Weapon Training and Weapon Specialist. You select Weapon Focus (morningstar) as your feat for Weapon Specialist. Then you retrain Weapon Focus (whip).

You only have Weapon Focus (morningstar), but is treated as if you have Weapon Focus for every weapon in the flails group. So you still qualify for Whip Master and you can use Stage Combatant with a heavy flail, a flying blade or any other weapon in the flails group.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

You are going to run into table variance if your plan is to get the feat twice so you can retrain one of them despite being a prerequisite.


But in weapon specialist it says " The fighter is also considered to have those feats with these weapons for the purpose of meeting prerequisites." I wouldn't have considered it if it wasn't for that line. It indicates that it can be used to count towards prerequisites, I just have to have the feat before I have that ability. (I know it isn't as the ability was intended, but as written would it work?)

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Say you have weapon focus whip from when you took it 1st level and you have it as a class feature from 3rd level. At 4th you used weapon focus whip as a prerequisite.

Now you are using weapon focus whip as a prerequisite. You can't retrain the one you took at 1st even with it being a duplicate.


James Risner wrote:

Say you have weapon focus whip from when you took it 1st level and you have it as a class feature from 3rd level. At 4th you used weapon focus whip as a prerequisite.

Now you are using weapon focus whip as a prerequisite. You can't retrain the one you took at 1st even with it being a duplicate.

So a fighter 4/barbarian 2 taking Defended movement, which has in its prerequisite base attack bonus +6 or fighter level 4th, must choose to qualify for the feat with either her fighter levels or her BAB?

Or take a character who has Int 13, Combat Expertise (requiring Int 13) and Improved Trip (requiring both Int 13 and Combat Expertise). He then discovers and takes Dirty Fighting (which lets you count as having Int 13 and Combat Expertise). When he takes Int drain, he no longer qualifies for Impoved Trip even though he has Dirty Fighting because he took the feats in the wrong order?

No. Nowhere does it say you have to keep track of how you first meet prerequisites. Not for retraining purposes nor in any other case. You just have to meet them.

EDIT: My second example is perhaps clearer and less strange if the character took a level of Brawler (Brawler’s Cunning lets you count as having Int 13) instead of Dirty Figthing.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

All your examples have nothing to do with my point. No where does it say you have to keep track of how is precisely right.

Which is why with retraining, if that feat is a prerequisite you can't retrain it. It doesn't matter if you have the prerequisite feat twice.

The problem is fixed by retraining the thing using the prerequisite away, changing one of them, then retraining back what used the doubled up prerequisites.

Quote:
can't be one that you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability.

One simple rule. Is it a prerequisite? If so, you can't retrain it.

This is part of the "you can't intentionally break your character during retraining".


What is your quote from?
Can you explain more on how to fix the problem?
And I understand what you are saying, but once weapon specialist kicks in, it's no longer a prerequisite at that point, it's just a duplicate. My Dm house ruled it's ok, but I went with your logic because 4 extra feats made me really strong, and my character is strong enough

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

They're not "duplicates", at least one is the prerequisite. You don't have it? You don't have Weapon Specialist.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Quote is from retraining rules, if you are using retraining you are using my quote (but maybe your GM will rule 0 it away.)

I'm not sure what you are asking. If you have WF Kama, and Weapon Specialist. Are you asking if you can retrain WF Kama and "keep it" from Weapon Specialist despite not having any WF feats in Monk weapon group?

No for multiple reasons.
1) You can't retrain WF Kama if it's used as a prerequisite even tho you have Kama from Weapon Specialist.
2) You can't retrain away your last WF in Monk group or Weapon Specialist won't be providing you a WF feat in the Monk group.

You can't use something you have as a prerequisite for that thing. For example, you can't use levels in a prestige class's BAB as a the BAB prerequisite for that class. Google "Hellknight 6 at level 6" and you will find many attempts to do so, with multiple FAQ and dev posts saying basically you can't do that. The end result is we have a "you can't retrain base classes to prestige classes" rule. Sad times.


I understand. It is unfortunate, but it makes sense. Thank you all.


DarkAtlas89 wrote:

For Weapon Specialist, could I then retrain the feats I picked for other feats and basically use weapon specialist as a place holder for weapon focus/specialization.

It feels like James Risner and I are talking beside one another and I would like to retrace my arguments to the beginning. I'll ask you to clarify one thing:

After retraining, would you still have one version of Weapon Focus (and possibly Weapon Specialization and other feats requring a choice of weapon) left?


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

he's saying that if you started with 2 that you end with 2. You can't retrain a feat if it's a pre-req and both are a pre-req since they are the same feat.


Chess Pwn wrote:
he's saying that if you started with 2 that you end with 2. You can't retrain a feat if it's a pre-req and both are a pre-req since they are the same feat.

So if I have both Combat Expertise and Dirty Fighting I can't retrain one of them if I have Improved Trip?

That is absolutely ridiculous, but I'm beginning to accept that it is how the rules are written.


Now I do think an errata or FAQ stating that you can retrain out of an option you get more of even if it is a prereq would be nice. But that has to be thought out to avoid anything to egregious but I do think that it could be worked out.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

As long as your character is legal after the retraining (you still meet all of the prerequisites for your remaining feats) then you should be able to retrain any feat. If you have dirty fighting, combat expertise and improved trip you should be fine to retrain any one. The one you retrain out isn't the prereq, the one remaining is.

Or you could go with an over-literal reading of the rules and kill all the fun.


Home game I'm down for it but like James said expect table variation. The rule says if its a preq. you can't retrain it.

Shadow Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I don't think it was the original intent to disallow characters from retraining prerequisites if you end up getting a duplicate from a class feature later in character progression.

However, I can see why it might be easier to make a broad rule banning retraining prerequisites rather than trying to explain when you can retrain a prerequisite, because of the issues with prestige classes.

I think this is a really good time for a GM to exercise Rule 0 and let the player just swap out the duplicate feat.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

1 person marked this as a favorite.

+1 on the "GM should rule 0"

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