I'm not too concerned with what type of team. I just think it is more fun as well as more successful when people work closely together.Teamwork feats seem to really help that happen. Shield wall, escape route, and shrug it off can really help with survivability. Stealth synergy and lookout can really help with sneaking and lessening ambushes. There are quite a few that can help with flanking bonuses.
But even without teamwork feats, a pair can really work together. Say one guy trips and disarms so that the other can hack him to bits without much risk. Or Constantly working to provide flanking bonus to each other to make all the iterative attacks hit.
What are your thoughts?
I agree with all of the above. I was talking with a friend recently about teamwork feats and about how they so seldom get used. I was thinking of building a grapple or rend type but I'm not quite sure. Flanking always helps no what type of warrior you are. I've been considering making him a bit of a scout but I'm leaning away from that right now.
My thoughts are I have mobility in the form of a horse, and I have reach, in the form of a polearm. I'll probably pick up a close combat weapon or some spiked armor...but I think my early game will be relying on my horse's attacks and iterative attacks. I was thinking of picking up trip, as a mounted tripper, because I thought that it would be silly looking. There's coordinated maneuvers if we want to go with maneuvers, but that requires adjacent-ness.However, there's distracting charge, which doesn't require others to have the feat to gain the bonuses, by RAW. Intercept Charge also looks to be very interesting. Say, if one of us is charged, the other two can make immediate actions to intercept. If two of us have reach weapons, that means we can likely score some AOOs, as the target must end adjacent to us and attack one of us.
There are some interesting feats, but most of the teamwork feats are okay at best.
I think some of the teamwork feats are much under appreciated if the players work together.
For example:
Outflank - Most players think that weapon focus is worthwhile for a +1 with a single weapon. Outflank can give a +2 with any weapon along with additional AoO when someone crits.
Shrug it Off - Iron Will is a fairly common feat for a +2 to will saves. With just the 3 of us, Shake it Off can give a +2 to all saves.
Stealth Synergy - One of the biggest problems with trying to be sneaky is the pretty good chance to roll a very low number. With Stealth Synergy you take the best of everyones' rolls. The odds of everyone rolling a low number are very unlikely.
Like I said though it requires the players to work together. But I think that is a good thing.
I didn't realize you (Crayfish) were a mounted build. It will be difficult for us to stay together without all of us being mounted. Not impossible though. There is coordinated shot and target of opportunity.
However, even without teamwork feats, we could still coordinate our builds and actions.
The biggest thing is we have to figure a way to cover the major party functions with all fighters. Scout, face, healer (more condition removal than hit point damage), knowledge skills, etc...
I couldn't get a direct answer from the GM, but think a lot of the selection will be on what we bring to the table besides doing weapon damage. A party of 5 fighters almost can't help but do sufficient weapon damage.
So I think each of should decide first what we will do besides damage. I've figured out decent ways to build a reasonable scout, face, or knowledge skills. What are your thoughts?
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I am actually a spear-focused archetype that benefits being mounted. My coolness is all in the weapon, and the higher level things involve mounts. I, while on a horse, can easily achieve any and all scouting with my superior mobility. I can kite enemies back to you guyz, have darkvision, low-light vision, but no skill points of course, cuz fighter.
Healer will be difficult. There are feats to shrug off stuff for yourself like Heroic Name Here. The heal skill can maybe do something, but there's few things, that I've seen, that's not third party for "healing".
Well, googling how to remove conditions as a fighter immediately brings me to why fighter's suck, first thing. It's going to be hard, if he wants alternate fighters.
I usually build disabler fighters, those that use intimidate to get more attacks and debuff things not immune to fear. Oho, you know what, what if I were to build a fighter with the antagonize feat while on a horse? Like a moving, mobile fortress that draws attacks. However, I can't make this a thing and be an android, as they are terrible for social interactions. So it comes down to do I want to play a joke, or do I wanna get in, maybe.
For this adventure, I'll try to get in.
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If someone were to be able to create traps, we could set up ambushes for the encounters, instead of being ambushed ourselves. Of course, being a scout has its own problems. If something kills my horse, I am out there with little mobility, but a lot of defense. This is a scout's life though, because if a rogue is caught alone, he is usually dead too, so that's normal.
Thankfully, I'll take a bunch of the shield feats and some tripping, and have really good saves, but lack in raw damage. I'll have probably a lot of attacks though. But I'll also have to most likely become a human, and for that, I am terribly sorry. Or a Nagaji, as being a fighter will lessen my need for too many feats. It'll just impact my early game. I play too much Smite, it's all about that early game.
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In a campaign I am playing in we have two fighters, one trips things, the other has vicious stomp. They both have paired opportunist and combat reflexes to get extra attacks of opportunity off.
They started doing this around 3rd level, but we realized later that we could have made it work right from level 1. The builds really started to come together once that they were 6th level with the trip fighter taking greater trip. The other fighter is planning on getting greater bullrush soon to really get lots of attacks of Opportunity, and eventually there is talk about getting Broken Wing Gambit on both of them
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That's a pretty cool combo, if that one fighter focused on punching and kicking things. For two fighters, that is an excellent combination to systematically fight one thing. And if there's more than one thing, I could distract and disrupt the other things with high AC, reach, excellent defenses. And most likely trips of my own later on the road. Or overrun...reposition! That's what I'll work towards, just riding on by and moving people around to provoke attacks of opportunity. And I can perform it while people are prone, which will provoke attacks while their AC is lowered.
Gosh, my character is now "The Distraction". But yeah, if there was one of us who could take up craft trapmaking, we could lure things to fight us on our own terms.
With my archetype, I can't specialize in bows, but that doesn't stop me from picking one up. Mounted archery is very silly, but if Mount and Blade Warband has taught me anything, mounted archery alone can win fights.
Get one fighter who takes UMD & Item Mastery feats. Curative Mastery is a thing now, and with scrolls and wands you may be able to keep your team from turning into a bunch of crippled ex-warriors.
Edit: well, if any of you are willing of course.
You can do mobility type scouting, but not sneaky type scouting while on a horse. But that might be good enough anyway.
I wonder if any of the familiars have condition removal spells? I don't remember any that do, but I never looked for it either.
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I also figured out that I become very mad statwise if I pick up too many roles. So I boiled it down to a support role, taunting others to attack me and drawing fire. I am the mobile fighter tank, but I'm not focused on damage or cmb stuff. I will have high charisma,good dex, and good con.If I'm dominated, it won't matter much, since I'm much more defensive. Also, if you wanna be a render and striker, there's the mutagen fighter thing, that can combo with something else.
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Fighters can't do it all. No way to duplicate spell effects other than umding wands, scrolls, etc which is inefficient as well as expensive and you aren't guaranteed to even have access to the magic items you need. About the only classes that are versatile enough to pull off team composed on only one type of class would be vigilante, oracle, and maybe shaman.
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I ran through the anniversary edition of Rise of the Runelords as an oracle and never, ever, ever, cast a healing spell after level 1. I just used wands of infernal healing, and later crafted them to make them even cheaper. 500 hp a wand kept our important party members alive. Some were not so lucky to survive some encounters and we used their gold-laden bodies to purchase things.
But I totally agree, healing is overrated and even a rogue can do it. The only class that can't, I would say, is the poor, poverty monk. Who can never pick up a wand of infernal healing. Or the wand of uncertain healing (CLW).
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Fighters can't do it all. No way to duplicate spell effects other than umding wands, scrolls, etc which is inefficient as well as expensive and you aren't guaranteed to even have access to the magic items you need. About the only classes that are versatile enough to pull off team composed on only one type of class would be vigilante, oracle, and maybe shaman.
Lordy, lordy, do I know it. But what the possible DM wants, the possible DM gets. Through my feats and actions is how I shall live and probably die a tragic death involving some eldritch horror. That should be the fighter's tagline, when you look up fighter and pathfinder.
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Mr. Whistler
Male Halfing fighter (Martial Master)
TN Small humanoid (halfling)
Init +3; Senses Low Light Vision; Perception +0
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Defense
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AC 22, touch 14, flat-footed 18 (+5 armor, +3 Dex+1 size+1 trait+2 shield)
hp 12 (1d10+2)
Fort +5, Ref +3, Will -1
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Offense
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Speed 15 ft.
Melee: Lance (1d6-1,20 x3)
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Statistics
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Str 8, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 16
Base Atk +1; CMB +0; CMD 12 (+1 vs. grapple and trip)
Feats Antagonize, Mounted Combat
Traits: Unbreakable Survivor, Defender of the Society
Skills: Intimidate +7, Ride +7, UMD +4
Languages: Common, Halfing, Goblin
Other Gear: Lance, Heavy Metal Shield, scale mail, medium-sized mount, rations.
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Special Abilities
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Low Light Vision: See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Mounted Combat (1/round) Once per round you can attempt to negate a hit to your mount in combat.
Creepy Doll: Glassy eyes and porcelain skin make some halflings look more like dolls than living creatures. If they cease moving and pretend to be a doll while they aren’t being observed, they can use the Stealth skill without cover or concealment. A successful Stealth check still allows other creatures to notice the halfling; they just believe the halfling is a doll, similar to the freeze universal monster ability (without being able to take 20). In addition, they take no size penalty on Intimidate checks against larger humanoids. The racial trait replaces keen senses and sure-footed
This is my rough draft. I got class to attend so I'll work on it later, but it gives what I got at level 1 and what my character looks like on paper.
Crayfish, are you planning on taking the feats to get an animal companion even though you are a fighter? If not, you horse will die in almost every fighter by mid levels.
I'm thinking I will be an android, take the Lore Warden archtype (can supply decent knowledge skills), the frontier medic feat (so I can be a minor out of combat healer), some UMD ranks, my bonus combat feats to archery, half the remaining feats to familiar-up-through-improved-familiar (I will take which ever improved version seems to have the most useful magical abilities at the time), the rest to whatever teamwork feats we decide to take. I'd suggest maybe starting with coordinated shot and target of opportunity.
I will work on a full build completed in the next few days.
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Fighters can't do it all. No way to duplicate spell effects other than umding wands, scrolls, etc which is inefficient as well as expensive and you aren't guaranteed to even have access to the magic items you need. About the only classes that are versatile enough to pull off team composed on only one type of class would be vigilante, oracle, and maybe shaman.Healing is overrated anyway - most parties use magic items (wands or boots of the earth) for that in the first place.
The rest can be approximated with spontaneous Item Mastery feats.
Yes, you can try to limp your way through an AP with this, but you'd have to have a very lenient DM and lots of gold and down time between fights. It really doesn't replace a divine caster.
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I ran through the anniversary edition of Rise of the Runelords as an oracle and never, ever, ever, cast a healing spell after level 1. I just used wands of infernal healing, and later crafted them to make them even cheaper. 500 hp a wand kept our important party members alive. Some were not so lucky to survive some encounters and we used their gold-laden bodies to purchase things.
But I totally agree, healing is overrated and even a rogue can do it. The only class that can't, I would say, is the poor, poverty monk. Who can never pick up a wand of infernal healing. Or the wand of uncertain healing (CLW).
I ran a life oracle through Carrion Crown and I did my fair share of healing throughout the AP. Yes, healing is generally not the optimal way to spend your actions in combat, but sometimes a fight is hard enough or your luck is bad enough, that you have to break out the healing to keep party members alive.
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There's a lot of travelling and always a few minutes after fights for my divine, void oracle to heal everyone. Shield other is a hell of a spell, and our DM increased the CR of encounters because our monk was turned into a super buffed monster...by me. Those that walked out of shield other's radius had an 80% chance of death in that AP. My lawful evil and the monk's lawful evil knew that being orderly and waiting was the best course of action, while the chaotics rushed to die. And the DM didn't roll for random loot, what was in the book is what you got, so in a way, the dead pcs fueld the party with gold. Think I used up a wand, and had 23 charges on another before the DM quit the AP due to so much character death. The horror, the horror!
Infernal healing is a cheap wand, but I will miss the splendor of a divine spell list. Though its always funny to see healor roles. They are distasteful to me, but to each their own.
And my fighter will be done tomorrow, gotta look through halfling stuff. If you take UMD, I'll take linguistics, as I can't pull what doesn't understand me. And I can then browbeat in all the social stuff, hurray!
Oh god, I remember doing Strange Aeons, and our regular DM brought in his nephew. Gave him a life oracle to play, which was clearly boring as flip to the youngster. Eventually his character was autoplayed by the DM and he left. Healbot is not even what we needed, we needed a divine spell caster! Oh well.
One more final note, I will one day create a false priest and watch others rush to death after being "healed". That is my favorite prestige class.
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Mr. Whistler
Male Halfing fighter (Martial Master, Mutation Warrior)
CN Small humanoid (halfling)
Init +3; Senses Low Light Vision; Perception +0
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Defense
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AC 22, touch 14, flat-footed 19 (+5 armor, +3 Dex, +1 size, +1 trait +2 shield) +2 dodge bonus against goblinoids
hp 12 (1d10+2)
Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +1 (+2 vs. Dominate and Possession)
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Offense
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Speed 15 ft, 40ft when mounted.
Melee: Lance +0 (1d6-1,20 x3)
or Halfling Rope-Shot +0 (1d4-1, 20 x2)
Ranged:Sling +3 (1d3-1, 20 x2), 50 ft.
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Statistics
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Str 8, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 16
Base Atk +1; CMB -1; CMD 12 (+1 vs. grapple and trip)
Feats Antagonize, Mounted Combat
Traits: Ironfang Survivor, Defender of the Society
Skills: Intimidate +7, Ride +7, Linguistics +2
Languages: Common, Halfing, Goblin, Undercommon
Other Gear: 100 sling bullets, Lance, Heavy Metal Shield, scale mail, combat trained pony, Cavalier's Kit, Cooking Kit, Gear Maintenance Kit, Grooming Kit, Mapmaker Kit, Mess Kit, Pyrography Kit, and three gold pieces.
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Special Abilities
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Low Light Vision: See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Mounted Combat (1/round) Once per round you can attempt to negate a hit to your mount in combat.
Creepy Doll: Glassy eyes and porcelain skin make some halflings look more like dolls than living creatures. If they cease moving and pretend to be a doll while they aren’t being observed, they can use the Stealth skill without cover or concealment. A successful Stealth check still allows other creatures to notice the halfling; they just believe the halfling is a doll, similar to the freeze universal monster ability (without being able to take 20). In addition, they take no size penalty on Intimidate checks against larger humanoids. The racial trait replaces keen senses and sure-footed
Irrepressible: Halflings with this trait receive a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against dominate and possession effects. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by halfling luck. This racial trait replaces fearless.
Halfling Luck: Halflings receive a +1 racial bonus on all saving throws.
Weapon Familiarity: Halflings are proficient with slings and treat any weapon with the word “halfling” in its name as a martial weapon.
Mr. Whistler is the tiniest tank and best fits the support/tank role. He can force others to attack him through the use of intimidate and antagonize, and he is a very rude halfling that has a knack for picking up languages so that others can understand his taunts. He has high defense, medium crowd control in pulling others towards him and with his reach weapon. His mount offers mobility so he is able to move in the way or to run around and soak up aoo's if need be. His damage is low, with low strength, but on charges can achieve higher damage. He has moderate flexibility in use of Martial Master's higher level ability, gaining the power to pick up a feat like a brawler does. This can give him more adaptability to handle different threats and to better support his team. If need be, he can drink his mutagen and gain a positive strength score, with even more defense in the form of natural armor! And the ability to fly, if he needs to, to harass flying opponents starting from 7th level. Early game, I have Mr. Whistler's lance attack with charges, or the side-weapon with the combat pony's hoof attacks, for a total of three attacks or 2d6-2 on a charge.
Mr. Whistler's feats are more geared towards defensive abilities. More with AC Shield Focus, perhaps Mounted Shield and Saving Shield. Intercept Charge is a highly likely candidate, to move Mr. Whistler in front of charge attacks. Missile Shield looks neat, and Combat Expertise taken will allow access to most maneuvers through the Martial Master ability, as well as adding more AC. Nature's Soul and Animal Ally will be taken in later levels to make his mount an animal companion, more hitpoints and survival skills. Other feats can be spontaneously picked up through Martial Master's ability, once Mr. Whistler has access to it.
Mr. Whistler lost his family, his entire family to bandits. They burned his hovel to the ground and rode off, laughing. And he had hid behind a tree, like a coward, who was very unarmed and without a weapon with a bucket of laundry in his hands. So when his laundry was dry, he clothed himself and left. He mourned once he was safe in the woods, as any would, but had to move on.
With this act, he became callous, rude, and deemed that his lost meant nothing to everyone he passed. Bandits kill people all the time, why should his family be any different. Without comfort from the outside world, he had to make himself laugh somehow. A man cannot live in misery forever and he had always been a cheerful lad. So he took up the practice of being a dick. By golly, he'd flip off just about anyone and say through the hole in his teeth, "Sorry, it was itching." Or, "Is that what that means? I thought it was the native way of saying hello, or goodbye!"
He traveled for some time, keeping up this antic. He eventually met up with some soldiers who were travelling to reinforce a small town or another. Mr. Whistler didn't particular catch all of the information. The soldiers got along surprisingly well with Mr. Whistler, growing fond of his rude antics (because he's just so small). They even dressed him up as a knight, with a long spoon and bucket helmet, on a pony. Everyone was laughing, and that's when the Ironfang attacked the campsite.
The last thing Mr. Whistler recalled was seeing this goblin-thing about to kill off his favorite soldier guy, when he whistled out, "Oy! Boyo! Your brood mother like them dwarfy boys? Because you are the ugliest, weakest lot I've ever seen!" And that goblin thing went over and beat the crap out of our unlikely hero. He woke up in Phaendar, his pony apparently having ran away from the fight after its rider was stricken. That is where he resided for several years, having armed himself enough to assist others. It was to the point where everyone knew his story, his name, and his middle fingers. He even made friends with a few others, but still likes flipping them off, as a gesture of goodwill of course.
This is my final edition for the fighter thing. I really hope our striker comes through, because the DM is asking other fighters how they will do damage now. Since everyone went with alternative roles, no one, or very few, are actual strikers.